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If you could only fire one, who would you let go? Philbin or Ireland?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Dec 24, 2013.

HC or GM?

  1. Philbin

    8.8%
  2. Ireland

    91.2%
  1. GreysonWinfield

    GreysonWinfield Release The Hounds

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    You mentioned inspiration or motivation. What inspiration should a coach bring that would have changed some of these losses? It's not about that. It's about being out coached in close games, which has nothing to do with motivating players. Putting players in a position to win, with the correct call, or empowering them to make a play, rather than playing not to lose has been the difference in the close losses this year.

    I feel like guys think there is a Knute Rockney speech given at the start and half of a game and it will turn things around. It's not that much different than life. Identify the issue, assess the cause, come up with a plan to fix it.
     
  2. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I'm curious. When you have a bunch of players that cannot win one on one match ups, exactly how are you going to put them in a position to win?

    You can't fix a lack of talent during the season.
     
    ASOT likes this.
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    However you want to quantify it I don't care, but when you lose to the bills when you have your playoff lives on the line, in the fashion they did, after losing to them at your own house, tells me something was wrong with the mindset of the team..the mindset of the team, the anger and sense of urgency they go into a game with, is the responsibility of the head coach finding ways to push his team to get to the right mindset..
     
  4. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    While this last lost stunk, I think it's important to keep some date relevancy.

    The worst loss this year was at home against the Bills. That loss just can never happen. Just can't happen.

    We never score on our opening drives. Our offense is most productive when we're running hurry up without the help of Sherman.

    My main quips are offensively, although, I'm not opposed to improvements defensively. The issues their are more personnel IMO (Ireland).

    I also think Philbin's management at the end of halves is a little less than to be desired too. He's made two vad decisions to allow Sturgis to kick FG's that were brutal too.
     
  5. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    these do
     
  6. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Do you seriously beieve this team is primed for a Superbowl run?? I'll be very surprised if they even make the playoffs.
     
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  7. GreysonWinfield

    GreysonWinfield Release The Hounds

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    You mean the same team that beat the Pats? It's called ****ty prep and adjustment by the coaching staff. Which team had more talent, the Pats or Bills?
     
  8. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    LOL advanced analytics.....please elaborate

    Probably a genius to

    Is so high functioning that he is an introvert and doesn't know the meaning of little words like "swagger"
     
  9. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    The Jets beat the Saints. Does that mean the Jets are a really talented team or did they just happen to be the blind squirrel that found a nut on that Sunday?

    We can continue to cycle through coach after coach after coach, but until the talent on the field improves, it won't make a damn bit of difference.
     
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  10. Dolfan330

    Dolfan330 My wein is so chaffed...

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    Him looking up the word was an obvious joke that flew over your head.
     
  11. GreysonWinfield

    GreysonWinfield Release The Hounds

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    Clearly the offensive play calling was for **** last week. Maybe RT & Wallace should have drawn a few plays up in the dirt.
     
  12. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Yes. Paraag Marathe is the 49ers advanced anyltics guy, and they have been using it since 2001.
     
  13. GreysonWinfield

    GreysonWinfield Release The Hounds

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    We aren't discussing the Jets so I won't even reply to that. The talent on this team was good enough to beat the Bills last week, the coaching wasn't. Am I saying the talent on this team is great? No. But it's like round hole, square peg some games and the coaches won't adjust.
     
  14. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    LOL at the idea that a game speech or swagger every won a single game for any team.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes I agree..the play calling on offense did not use it's weapons to the best of their abilities..
     
  16. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Where was the talent good enough to beat the Bills? The Bills have the best front 7 in football right now, or one of the top front 7s in football. We have the worst offensive line in football. This game was lost before we ever set a foot on the field. This team was never going to be able to block that front 7 well enough to win. In two games against the Bills this year, Ryan Tannehill has been under pressure on 33 of 73 total drop backs. With the lack of talent Miami has up front, they were never going to be able to block a front line of Kyle Williams, Marcel Dareus, and Mario Williams at all, no matter how much they moved the pocket, changed up the blocking schemes or attempted to run the ball.
     
    ASOT likes this.
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think their both very bad losses, what I'm trying to figure out is it a talent issue or something else.

    The fact that Sherman and Philbin did not think it would be wise to move Ryan around, to demand and coach him to accept that pressure was going to be in his face, to not use all his strengths in the gameplan, to coach him up so much to stay in the pocket the guy has just completely abandoned that part of the game, to not use his unique ability to go left or right and throw, it's very puzzling to me..

    Did you know last year when we beat the bills, Ryan ran the read option 10 times for over a hundred yards.
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    it's a good point, and I have mentioned that maybe they knew they couldn't matchup after the first series and that sent the shock wave thru the team, I can see that happening, but why have the bills won 5 games then? Why did we give up 200 yards rushing with our front 7? Is there not alternatives to cover up the weakness to the oline..
     
    toto likes this.
  19. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    A weakness up front is as hard to cover for as a weakness at quarterback.

    The reason Buffalo only has 6 wins is inconsistency at quarterback, and other teams simply match up better against their front than we do.
     
  20. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    AMERICA!
    I think most here would be surprised based on this teams history and last weeks showing.
    Throw in the fact that we still need help, along with this Jets team being better, then the one we faced a few weeks ago.
     
  21. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bollocks.

    Miami was a Caleb Sturgis chip shot FG or a Tannehill bonehead throw away from winning at home.

    The Bills front is impressive. However, Miami totally handled them in Game 1 until the last drive where we inexplicably decided to throw with 2:20 left rather than run the clock down.

    To make things worse, YOU KNOW they're good, the conditions are poor, etc and Miami made 0 adjustments to help him.

    I mean I get it. The O-Line talent is dreadful and Ireland MUST be held accountable for that. I'm totally on board with you there. But to even remotely try and not hand any blame to the offensive staff for that sham of a gameplan is crazy.

    It was Tom Olividotti-esque.
     
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  22. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Play calling and game planning are made better or worse by the talent and execution of the players. Fans seriously put too much emphasis on game planning and not enough emphasis on execution.
     
  23. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But I'm not marginalizing the execution here.

    This is just a difference of opinion. You believe game-planning has very little value.

    I agree that execution is the most important, but play calls, scehemes, creating match ups, etc have their value.

    In your world, no coach should ever be fired then. You could always make the case that it's the players.

    Let me ask you this. What are the most important responsibilities of a coach? What are fireable offenses?
     
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  24. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I think a Cam Cameron level coach should be fired. There are very few excellent and very few down right poor coaches. The large majority of coaching changes in professional sports are little more than that just window dressing unless you have one of those Cam Cameron level coaches who has a profound effect on the either by losing the locker room or some other reason. Those Cam Cameron/Mike Singletary types of coaches are as rare as a Bill Belichick type. The large majority of coaches in the NFL are interchangeable.

    I'm going to link a few articles to read through:

    http://www.advancednflstats.com/2013/10/on-effect-of-coaching.html

    Discusses why coaches are largely interchangeable.

    http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/luck-and-nfl-outcomes.html

    Discusses luck's effect on NFL outcomes and compares the binomial distribution of a "pure luck" league to what the actual performance of the league was over a 5 year period from 2002 to 2007. Notice that the most common outcome was a 9-7 record, with the second most common being 10-6. The data gives the suggestion that the outcomes of NFL games is dictated by luck 52% of the time.

    http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/luck-and-nfl-outcomes-2.html

    Discusses what the outcome distribution of NFL games would look like if this were a pure skill based league.

    http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007/08/luck-and-nfl-outcomes-3.html

    Discussing the combination of the two.

    The data suggests that the outcomes of NFL games are largely dictated by luck and skill. Your more skilled teams will win more games, particularly if they are more skilled at quarterback (my interjection), but they will rarely go undefeated due to the variance of luck. If the outcomes of games are largely dictated by luck and skill, there isn't much room for the effect of coaching. Hence, why we are back to square one, and why the majority of NFL head coaches and coaching staffs are interchangeable.

    As for what I think the primary job of the head coach and coaching staff is, I think it is getting the team to buy into the overall philosophy, values, and vision of the team. Other things that I think coaches have more of an effect on than the outcomes of games are player development, and I think player health.
     
  25. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Because I don't believe that they can perform when everything is on the line. Choking under pressure is their MO.
     
  26. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    6 years, not a single beast = utter and complete failure at football. Nobody cares about his vision, his record, his expertise, the needs, the xs and os, the 1 gap and 3 gap, the schemes. Jeff Ireland is a boring and pathetic man. Have heart and save us all from that clown.
     
  27. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Is who's MO? The guys that have been here for 2 years?
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To call someone the names you do, to someone who has responsibilities that Ireland has in life, is gross...I'm ashamed for you.
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know it's a exaggeration but you can't have a computer picking personnel and a robot for a coach.

    "Men respond to leadership in the most remarkable way, once you have won their hearts they will follow you anywhere"

    Lombardi..

    Robots can't lead
     
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  30. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    The guys that have been here for 2 years, the guys that have been here longer than that and the guys that just got here. Everyone brought onto this team since the Parcells/Ireland era began, basically.
     
  31. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I have already stated I want Ireland fired, no matter if the Dolphins make the playoffs or not.

    As far as Philbin is concerned. Going into this season, it was thought by many on this forum that the Dolphins would be the main competition for the Patriots in the division.

    It was assumed the Bills and Jets would be fighting it out for the first pick in the 2014 draft. Instead the Bills, even though they have a worse record than the Dolphins at this time, beat the Dolphins twice this year and now appear to be a more talented team than the Dolphins. In fact I see them as the one team in the AFC East which will be the Patriots main competition in 2014.

    The Jets are now 7-8 and while I expect the Dolphins to beat them this Sunday. A win by the Jets would leave both the Jets and Dolphins with similar 8-8 records. Ryan has already told his players that he will be fired after this season, no matter what record the Jets finish with. If the Jets do in fact beat the Dolphins this week and Ryan is fired, I would see no reason why Philbin would deserve to remain the Dolphins HC.
    He would have led a a team which was suppose to have a lot more talent than the Jets to a similar record. He would also would have lost two games to the Bills, a team with only 6 wins so far in this season. He also was at the helm when the Dolphins lost to Tampa Bay, a team which had not won a single game this season, prior to their win over the Dolphins.

    While there have been some good wins this season and a win this week over the Jets will make it possible for the Dolphins to possibly make the playoffs. These earlier wins would be wasted with a loss to the Jets this weekend. A loss to the Jets should be enough reason, along with the two losses to the Bills, for Philbin to lose his job, IMO.

    To me, the Dolphins have to finish 9-7 for Philbin to keep his job. Unfortunately, I just think that Ross will keep him and Ireland, no matter what happens in the Jets game this week.
     
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  32. Big Phin

    Big Phin Active Member

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    It's Ireland and it's not even close for me.


    As far as Philbin goes, I can see why some of you want him gone. the thing for me is that it's been such a weird season with the ups and downs with the media attention, it's hard to put a finger on any of it. the fact our guys are still in the playoff picture gives him a pass for this year, imo. Don't get me wrong though. Last week's egg against the Bills was inexcusable if you're a legit, playoff contender. Still though, I still think he should get a pass.

    8 weeks ago, there was no way in hell most of us thought we'd be in this position. You have to credit Philbin for that, imo.
     
  33. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think this too.
    A lot of people here will be shocked when it happens.
     
  34. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    The reason some want him gone is little more than wanting to make a change for the sake of changing. There is this idea that the Dolphins are more talented than they really are, and that the team has underachieved under Joe. This is mostly media driven BS that has no basis in reality though. Most NFL projection models had the Dolphins winning around 7 games based on what the players on this team had done previously. It was the media that decided on a subjective basis that the Dolphins would challenge the Patriots based on their free agency spending spree.
     
  35. fins104

    fins104 New Member

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    Am i the only one who has no idea why firing Philbin is being considered? What more do you want the guy to do? Last year he was given a rookie QB with literally no weapons to play with and a bad OL and we got 7 wins.


    This year we spent a lot of money in the offseason but we clearly downgraded our LB's tremendously to the point where our front 4 is amazing against the run but it doesnt matter because our LB's are the 2 worst in the league at stopping the run. Our OL is terrible not only against the pass but they are 10x worse against the run if you look at PFF. Literally the only ones who have a positive run block grade on our team are Incognito and Pouncey who is just about 0. Every other player, TE's and WR's included have awful run blocking grades. How can we do anything when even if we decide to run we have no space to do anything. The pieces just stink. What do you want Philbin to do with that? Hell the only draft pick from last year who plays is our ****ing kicker. Thats not to say this won't eventually be a good draft but we got nothing this year.

    So we got worse LB's, worse OL, and we improve and in all likelihood make the playoffs? What are you firing him for? He is a good game day coach IMO who isn't afraid to go for it on fourth downs from time to time. Just because he isn't a huge Jim Harbaugh type loud mouth coach doesnt mean he needs to go.

    That is why we have been stuck in football purgatory for 15 years. Keep it together, don't switch to another regime. That would set us back yet again.
     
  36. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I agree with you 100%. Yeah losses suck but people act like even the greatest teams ever don't get blown out and lay an egg every once in a while. Although unlikey, i'd like to see sherman and ireland gone. But I don't know if I see them getting rid of coordinators and staff like that without getting rid of the HC too. Or getting a new gm who wont want to just bring in his own HC and everything, which is understandable. I would not mind philbin getting another year. In fact I feel it should be done.If you would have told me in preseason or after we went 3-0 and tanked that philbin would get us to 9-7 and the playoffs (assuming it happens) I'd be thrilled, Not calling for his head. Now... if we lay down against the jets.. then Im SURE my tune will change...
     
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  37. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Shocked? No.
    Disappointed? Certainly. But I'm so very used to that.
     
  38. fins104

    fins104 New Member

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    I don't really care about the coaches who will go. I care about upgrading the team personnel wise. Our offensive line has actually graded out positively in the pass blocking category on PFF its the run blocking that is the worst in the league. There is no one on this team currently who has a positive run blocking grade besides pouncey who is barely above 0. That needs to be the first priority. I would get rid of John Jerry, Sign Alex Mack, move Puncey to guard where his athleticism can be shown more and then draft another guard early. Get rid of Mckinnie with a Tackle early in the draft and then resign clabo.

    This is a good coach. I don't know how you can argue against that. He isn't a firey guy but he doesnt need to be. He is a guy that is a good leader of your franchise and is a good enough coach. Get the right players in here and we will be great next year if Tannehill improves even more.
     
  39. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    I don't know why some people think that Jeff Ireland's job is safe considering that his decision to keep Richie Incognito on the roster and his decision to draft Jonathan Martin are the reasons this team has had yet another public black eye since he has been the GM. Do you really think Stephen Ross wants to see season ticket sales drop 10,000 plus?
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This argument has been greatly exaggerated. The NFL's business model inherently minimizes the effect of ticket sales on a single owner. It really isn't hard to model this out and see how much it truly will cost Ross:

    - 10k season tickets = 80k total tickets
    - Average ticket price = ~$90
    - 80,000 * $90 = $7.2MM
    - Ross keeps 60% of home ticket revenue = $3.2MM total revenue lost by losing 10k season tickets

    Surely firing the GM will cost more for the owner than that $3.2MM, when you factor in what is still owed to the GM under contract, the cost of replacing dozens of football operations staff members, and the cost of replacing players.

    This is without even evaluating the merits of the claim of losing 10k season ticket holders if Jeff Ireland isn't fired, which is rather dubious IMO.

    Jeff Ireland's job is most likely safe simply because it is expensive to make changes, especially when the result of those changes is completely unknown.
     

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