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Ben Mcadoo -- Really?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by 2socks, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Kyle Shanahan's creative, innovative plays integrated into Philbin's offense would've been the most ideal IMO and would transition quite nicely into it considering we're already doing some of the stuff Kyle does, only we're doing it at a kindergarten level. Not to mention the ground game would improve b/c he's vastly more experienced in it, as would the screen game. Until Tannehill reaches Aaron Rodgers level, I really don't want anyone coming from Green Bay's system to serve as OC.
     
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  2. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    your putting a little too much stalk in playcalling. teams design their gameplan all week long and run the plays based off that. theres very little going off script that happens. philbin may never have called the plays but im damn sure he predetermined them all week long. "if your seeing this, call this. if they do that, do this. on 2nd and short call this" blah blah etc

    this us partly why im not sure if sherman was truly to blame or not.
     
  3. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    That's what is so odd about this franchise. We have had some really good coordinators here (offensive and defensive).

    What gives with some of these guys when they come to Miami?
     
  4. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/238932861.html

    Smells like a true up and comer who had an opportunity TWO years ago but Green Bay blocked.


    Talent. We simply have not had a good GM the last 14-15 years. I mean 8-8 is a heck of an achievement considering how poor the OL and LB's were. We aren't talking mediocre...but abysmal.
     
  5. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Part of my point. If you have never personally done it, How do you coach the coaches? Then the other consideration is the inability to be involved in making adjustments. You are stuck with your game plan which was obvious the last two games wasn't it. I will bet if we went back and looked at the other loses, failing to be able to adjust on the fly was a key part of the reason we loss.
     
  6. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Shanahan was excellent with Shaub in Houston also. Definite upgrade for Tanne.
     
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  7. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    yeah, i had to go see who the hell ben mcadoo was. another guy with no experience heading into a job. this may get worse folks.
     
  8. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    I am not necessarily under the impression that Miami did not/does not have the talent. The GM may not be the best in the business, and anyone can argue "this player vs. that player," but being a GM cannot be an easy job. SOMEONE must believe he is capable, because he got the job in the first place and has retained it for some time.

    I will not go into an Ireland debate. I am merely saying that most teams generally have very similar talent levels, hence the parity of the league and the typical change in Super Bowl champions from year-to-year. Yes, there are teams that have yearly success, but what are the general "common denominators" with those teams?

    Great coaching and great QB play.
     
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  9. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Too much on the job training in this organization from the Owner, to the GM, to the HC, to the coaches.
     
  10. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Come on man. These guys have no idea what's going on.
     
  11. Darrelle Revis

    Darrelle Revis I BELIEVE!

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    :up:
     
  12. ATLFINFAN

    ATLFINFAN Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I will take an up and comer over an old goat any day. I will also take a prized Green Bay coach to help MY team out.
     
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  13. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    This is pretty much how I feel. Everyone is moaning because he has no experience, but I would much rather have a young guy from that offense who has promise over an old dude with an outdated mentality.
     
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  14. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    well I for one wish Ross would fire Philbin and Ireland or I wish dolphin fans would grow a pair and raise enough hell and buy a billboard send a stronger message to MR Ross. if things don't improve can the nfl force this clown to sell the team ? I mean the nba forced a owner from the Oregon / Washington are to sell his team so can Godell force Ross to do the same ?
     
  15. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    This...Dominant running games seem to follow Kyle Shanahan and his father around.

    Miami's biggest problem in 2013, IMO, was the short running game. The failure to convert short yardage situations. Who better to fix this?
     
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  16. Pariah

    Pariah Revolutionary

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    Not a name on the list I was thinking of, but I am not opposed to it. I want someone young, and coming up. Hopefully he is innovative. The word is there are other teams interested in him, so he may not be ours.
     
  17. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Can you even say your opening sentence without running out of breath?

    , <----- that is a comma and it represents a pause.
     
  18. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I used to play touch football with McAdoo in Buffalo (he lived in a condo right across the street from our townhouse in the 70's). He could throw a football a mile. And, he could leap over the trunks of cars at will to avoid getting touched.

    That qualifies him as well as Sherman. :)

    But, I don't get the problem with Ben McAdoo. He has been in Green Bay during the Rogers era and I love their offense. And I like Rogers development.

    I also don't buy the specious argument that appears all over the place on this board that because a QB coach coaches a good or great QB that he won't be a good coordinator or offensive mind.

    By that argument, all the guys that came from Bill Walsh (a TON of very good ones) should have been terrible coaches / coordinators - because Joe MOntana was there.
     
  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Is Kyle Shanahan an old goat? He is younger than McAdoo.
     
  20. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  21. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Ben McAdoo as OC & Pennington as QB coach, then fire Turner & find a real OL coach...
     
  22. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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  23. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Apparently...he is very well regarded in NFL circles.

    I still believe he ends up being our OC.
     
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  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Ben McAdoo could end up a brilliant coach. But it's very difficult to discern what signs there are that this will be the case.

    Instead, what you find are a lot of themes that tend to get guys hired above their station in the NFL, only to find out they were never qualified to begin with.

    He's young. That tends to be a huge plus. Guys tend to get hired in the NFL because they're young, not so much because they're qualified. The younger the better, it seems. This guy is in his 30's? Wow, what a wunderkind! If age were stripped out of the equation then guys like Bob Sutton would be getting head coaching jobs.

    He's coached two different positions and both of them have been successful (TE and QB). That's generally a big selling point, and one that I could buy.

    He comes from an offense with a genuine franchise elite level quarterback. That tends to get jobs for people that don't deserve them. We all fall into that trap. Let's call it the Cam Cameron trap. Meanwhile, Mike McCoy manages to make rainbows out a sh-t typhoon like Tim Tebow, but we fall into the trap of going for the guy that "coached" Aaron Rodgers. I'm not absolving myself. I fell into it too. I'm just getting tired of falling for it.

    Perhaps people are really impressed with how he got Matt Flynn ready to play...and willing to ignore the fact that McAdoo was part of the evaluation that resulted in waiting too long to grab Flynn, riding instead with Seneca Wallace (who played terrible) and Scott Tolzien (who is terrible), neither of whom played like anything resembling an NFL quarterback under McAdoo's direction and development.

    They're also willing to ignore that Mike McCarthy is a quarterback guy, that his offensive coordinator Tom Clements was the quarterback coach the last time Flynn was there and played well, and that Clements continued coaching quarterbacks even after being elevated. That last bit I have from someone very closely connected with the Packers organization. So they're willing to ignore that McAdoo's presence as "QB Coach" has a superfluous look to it.

    And no I don't consider previous attention from Greg Schiano (himself a woefully underqualified head coach candidate) to be that much of a selling point for him. Nor do I consider it a great sign that Philbin wanted to bring him over in 2012, now that we see how Philbin operates with his hires (placing importance on who they know, not what they know).

    But all in all I guess it's not that not surprising he's a hot name, given the above. After all, everyone's also hot on Eliot Wolf's nuts because of his age, his name and his team colors, even though he's in charge of the most superfluous department in Green Bay's front office (director of pro personnel on a team that never signs other teams' free agents).
     
  25. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Was waiting for your thoughts on this CK....good stuff.

    That's the issue I have with McAdoo....how can anyone really know what kind of Offensive Coordinator will he be? I did read something interesting, in that...Philbin said his offense tends to be about the players making plays...not what kind of plays they design.

    That worries me some to be honest. To me that sounds like a coach who does not believe in adapting. He will not look to create mismatches...say the way that Sean Payton seems to do. Instead, he will rely on the players winning their individual matchups.

    I really want a coach....who can look at another team, and find the weaknesses to exploit. The example I always use for this...is how Shula put Nat Moore at TE for the Bears game in 85. To me...that is creative. Thats looking at a defense that to that point..had looked unbeatable...and seeing a place where we could exploit. Nat Moore had 4 Catches for 74 yds and 2 TDS in that game.

    [video=youtube;_m0SzNtY9WI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m0SzNtY9WI[/video]

    Key example....at 2:59 seconds.....Nat Moore actually lines up fingers in the dirt.

    '
    Thats coaching. I just don't get why its so hard for some coaches to see this is how to win games. I've heard Gus Mahlzhan is like this.
     
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  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Successfully adapting to your players is probably the number 1 indicator of long term success for a HC. It is also the rarest trait to find in a HC candidate and that's the point I think a lot of people are missing.

    Most coaches have a system and stick to it, whereas your Shulas and Belichicks are once in a lifetime finds. Many coaches are good enough to win and win consistently with a system, but pining for the rarest of rare so much that we overlook excellent system coaches is a problem, IMO.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    While we're talking about assistants, and just to be fair here, let me give you an example of a guy I think shows GOOD signals, as opposed to signals that tend to be thematically overrated.

    Joe Whitt, Jr...the cornerbacks coach of the Green Bay Packers. Here are some of those signals:

    1. He hired on as defensive quality control with Green Bay in 2008. In 2009 there was a purge of all the defensive coaching staff...EXCEPT for Whitt, who was promoted to cornerbacks coach. Those with the closest view of the defensive situation viewed him as part of the solution rather than part of the problem on defense.

    2. From 2009 to 2012 (2013 isn't tallied yet I don't think), his corners had 54 interceptions...highest of any cornerbacks unit in the NFL during that span. I don't know what it looks like after 2013 but his corners had 9 more INTs in 2013 and that's pretty decent.

    3. To some degree, every player he touched seemed to turn to gold. Charles Woodson continued his awesomeness and in fact may have had the best year he's ever had under Whitt in 2009 (at 33 years old). Tramon Williams flowered into a good corner there. Al Harris played well there. He developed Sam Shields (UDFA) AND Casey Hayward (2nd round). He coached Micah Hyde (5th round) into a decent rotational player even as a rookie.

    4. Going back to when he was a coach at Louisville, he also coached William Gay and Kerry Rhodes there. He was asked in 2005 to focus on the recruiting efforts and as a result Louisville brought in the first top-25 recruiting class in the program's history.

    5. He has experience on both sides of the ball. He was a walk-on receiver at Auburn and eventually earned a scholarship. When he coached for a year at Citadel it was as a wide receivers coach. Scooter Johnson went from 6 catches for 104 yards to 69 catches for 950 yards, and the team's passing output improved from 138.5 yards per game to 219.8 yards per game, just in that one year.

    6. Al Harris by the way left the Packers after being coached by Whitt in 2008 and 2009, and now he's become a genuinely good DB Coach in his own right with the Kansas City Chiefs. Harris had a long career so I won't say Whitt created him into a good coach, but Whitt and Todd Bowles were the last two DB Coaches that had coached him directly for any significant amount of time and part of the reason Miami even grabbed him in 2010 was so that he could be sort of a player-coach mentor with our young corners.


    Oh and yeah by the way also he's only like 40 years old or whatever so he fits the whole agism theme in the NFL.

    He's also a coaches son as his dad Joe Whitt Sr. was a mainstay of the Auburn defensive coaching staff for a quarter of a century. So he grew up under a defensive coach but he won't get much publicity for it because his dad wasn't amongst famous coach. It's not as "sexy" to be the son of Joe Whitt, Sr. as it is to be the son of Ron Wolf or Bill Polian...or John McVay, or Mike Shanahan.
     
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  28. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Which...in a way, is why you keep seeing the same teams year after year in the playoffs. In this day and age of salary cap, and free agency, you have to be a coach who can consistently win with the talent he has on hand.

    I hate to ask this question...but, what do people think Bill Belichick would do with this roster, and Jeff Ireland as a GM. The more and more I look at things, the more and more I see, its not just talent. I think you need talent at some key positions, but great coaching trumps all.

    Heres a classic example. Pats vs Rams in the Super Bowl. Bill Belichick adapts his defese, and plays most of the game with all DB's. Now...Mike Martz...had a Hall of Fame RB...do you think he would change and adapt..no, he was bent on beating Belichick with his system. And he lost.
     
  29. mnfinfan

    mnfinfan Active Premium Member Luxury Box

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    well when you present it that way...
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Well the mystery of the Cleveland head coach interview I think is solved.

    As per Disgustipate's excellent find and post in The Club, there is a rule that states assistant coaches continue to belong to their team until the 3rd Tuesday after their final playoff game, so long as their contract doesn't expire on a specific day.

    That means Miami can't even interview him for OC right now without permission and given Green Bay's history with giving permission they may not be inclined to give it until they can pitch all their guys on staying on.

    However, the NFL has rules in place that prevent a team from blocking their assistant from interviewing for a HEAD COACH job. So the Cleveland Browns have filed that with the league so that they don't have to wait to talk to McAdoo. They're doing him a solid, raising his profile by giving him a HC interview, and they hope perhaps they can circle back to him and hire him as an OC when he is actually freed from Green Bay's clutches.
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I would imagine this practice would hurt the Packers in the long run. I know there aren't many jobs, however I would rather go to a place that would allow me to get promoted than a place that would deny me.
     
  32. isaacjunk

    isaacjunk Member

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    But a great GM can make do with a decent coach as well. For example, the Cowboys' Jimmy Johnson era, where you had an ok coach who scored big on a few drafts. His philosophy was to just to play straight, simple schemes with superior talent. That also works. The point is, to be great, you need greatness, whether it be at the coaching level, players, or front office. Having said that, I am especially impressed though with New England and what they are doing this year, pretty amazing...
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    One would imagine. But it's been a consistent thing for them. They told Joe Philbin he can't have anyone when he left. As is now advertised, they denied McAdoo from being allowed to interview with the Bucs for OC two years ago.

    There are definitely varying schools of thought on this. Parcells encouraged his assistants to find better jobs so long as the job was actually better. He declined letting Sparano interview for the Saints OC job because he knew it wasn't a real OC job and it was a lateral move that could hurt Sparano in the end. Then he turned around and took care of Tony by hiring him as Miami's head coach. Jerry Jones is another that always encourages his assistants and front office to take promotions elsewhere.

    The Packers on the other hand seem to believe when you negotiate a contract to be their assistant you're making a commitment for that amount of time and they're going to hold you to it until it's done, at which point you can seek promotions.

    I can see both points of view.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Back on the subject of Ben McAdoo.

    I mentioned before the Browns were likely interviewing him for a Head Coach position purely with the intention of feeling him out for a coordinator position.

    I had forgotten that this was exactly what they did in 2013 with Ray Horton. The weekend of January 5th, Horton was still under contract with the Arizona Cardinals and they were considering him for the Head Coach job. The Browns went ahead and interviewed him for Head Coach that weekend, and he ended up their Defensive Coordinator under the guy they really hired Rob Chudzinski.

    This is just part of their standards for how they operate. To them, rules are made to be circumvented. If you can't interview a guy for your assistant positions because of some dumb rule, interview him for Head Coach which gives you the exact same feel for the guy, and leaves him grateful to you for raising his profile by interviewing him for the Head Coach position, and then when he actually is free you can circle back and hire him for a coordinator spot.
     
  35. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't know that this is just a Clevleand thing. I imagine plenty of other teams are doing it and have done.

    Take Washington. I doubt they are actually considering all 11 guys or whatever it is for ehad coach. Some are clearly being felt out as coordinator candidates
     
  36. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But generally don't head coaches want to choose their own staff? Cleveland's GM could suggest the guy as an OC after hiring the HC but would any HC sign on to that site unseen? I doubt it, which means they would than have to set up a second interview and loose any head start they had in the first place.
     
  37. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    Make no mistake about it .It will be someone who is close to Philbin .No other outside OC worth his salt is going to hitch his wagon to this lame duck regime.

    Thats why someone like Ben Mc Adoo makes sense .He is not high profile ,he is young ,this would be a promotion in his career path and if the regime falls apart its doubtful he will get blamed for it.

    Whoever it turns out to be I predict he will have close ties to Philbin,he will be young and low profile.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I reiterate, this is exactly what they did with Ray Horton in 2013.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Ben McAdoo is the superfluous third nipple on the Green Bay Packers coaching staff.

    He's a "QB Coach" underneath a Head Coach that was a QB Coach, and an Offensive Coordinator who was a QB Coach and who according to sources close to the Packers still very much coaches Aaron Rodgers. And he's the "QB Coach" of an elite QB in Aaron Rodgers who is already developed and largely coaches himself as well as his backups.

    I don't give a sh-t what kind of references Aaron Rodgers gives him. He's looking out for his own. There's a lot of that going on. There's not a lot of hiring guys who are purely qualified going on.
     
  40. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I thought Philbin was supposed to be a prized Green Bay coach. OH well, maybe that next Green Bay coach to come to the Dolphins will actually be a good coach.
     

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