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Farmer now Cleveland GM, did the media lie about us again?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wait, so we think that Farmer turned us down and only used us for leverage because he had the Browns GM job locked up?
     
  2. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Problem is, there isn't evidence that he chose to stay with the browns anymore than there is that he opted NOT to take the Miami job. The evidence DOES suggest that either he knew or that the Browns approached him after his visit here about staying on there. This move isn't something that Haslam suddenly decided...more likely there's been a lot of discussion about changing the direction of that FO, just not as publicly as us changing our GM...which, BTW, we did not change the structure, just the GM. Why would he not, even if he knew that Haslam wanted to consolidate that FO, speak to the Fins...the fact that he pulled out of our job not right after the meetings here, but several days later suggests even more that Haslam approached him after his visit here...

    At any rate, does it really matter now ?? Hickey is now our GM and is apparently satisfied with whatever the power structure is. That structure, that we have been so closely scrutinizing isn't exactly unheard of in NFL FOs and the Aponte/Ross business relationship is just speculation on our parts. I read the same things that we all do, and having some experience in upper management, it's not really all that confusing.

    Also you ask why he would stay there, with their track record, well it's pretty simple to me...he knows where that organization is at right now, having been a part of it for a period of time. He won't have to uproot his family and start all over again and likely the salary was never an issue, since an official offer wasn't made (I think, but not sure). The fact that several days after his interview here he absolves his application here speaks loudly that he decided to stay there because he was told he was going to be involved in the process of restructuring that FO... Doesn't speak poorly of Miami. It does speak poorly of what the media has been reporting, so they have to make it look like it's another blight on our organization....
     
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  3. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Regardless of the media, the structure, whatever, the fact remains that we got saddled with a guy who by all accounts, was the 4th choice at best.

    If that doesn;t bother some of you, I don't know what to say. Even if you look at everything in the best light to the organization, there were still more candidates that wanted to use us as leverage then there are that actually want to work here.

    And that problem starts at the top, with Ross, and then permeates the rest of the organization.

    In his column today Barry Jackson reports that one of the reasons Hickey even got on our interview list in the first place (when he was not on the radar for any other job) is because he and Philbin liked each other during Philbin's interview and Hickey supposedly endorsed Philbin's candidacy in Tampa.

    What Ross sees in Philbin, I've yet to discern, but he better hope he is right.

    This franchise is circling the bowl in terms of local interest.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How do you know he was the 4th choice even?

    The only person that has been confirmed to have been offered the job (other than Hickey, obviously) was Caserio. Farmer confirmed he wasn't offered the job. Licht wasn't offered the job. The Dolphins confirm they didn't offer Dawson the job.

    This is you overreacting to speculation passed off as fact.
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's become the convenient line of thinking for Dolphins fans to feel better about the franchise, yes. Though there's no supporting evidence whatsoever and plenty of contradicting testimony. But everyone knows people are generally lying scoundrels, so that doesn't matter.
     
  6. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, according to Farmer himself, he was under the impression he was going to be offered the job. But you already think he's a liar so you won't believe that.

    Dawson claimed he was offered the job, but since the team denied that, you obviously believe the very trustworthy Dolphins org.

    And since it was confirmed that we begged Licht to come back before accepting the Tampa job, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that he might've been offered the job.

    But ok, let's even take your construct as fact, we still got used as leverage by several other people, even if they weren't formally offered the job. Ross claims he never formally "offered the job" to Harbaugh either, but then I have to wonder just what the hell they were talking about for 8 hours in California.

    This organization is a clown show. Now, sometimes even idiotic plans succeed despite their idiocy. Perhaps this one will too, but given the track record of this ownership, and frankly of the people he's hired, mediocrity is once again the most likely course
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    From Steve Ross' point of view this is 100% correct. If you were to get Steve Ross in a room privately and have him tell you what he thinks I'm pretty sure he would echo that exactly...although I'm pretty sure he would tack on a few points about Ireland's lack of "integrity".

    However it's also a little more complex than that as well because the real reason Joe Philbin and Jeff Ireland did not get along is because Philbin came to have zero respect for Jeff Ireland's ability to fill the roster with talent. It wasn't just about Philbin and Ireland not getting along personally. There was no respect for Ireland's ability to do the job. And I'm pretty sure Aponte felt the same way although I've no confirmation of that.

    So you can say the reason Ireland was fired was because he didn't get along with Philbin as opposed to his evaluation record or skills, and that would be true. But one of the biggest reasons he didn't get along with Philbin is because Philbin didn't think Ireland knew what the hell he was doing evaluating and acquiring talent, so then again it's not true.

    To be fair to Jeff Ireland he came to also have very little respect for Joe Philbin's coaching ability so there was definitely a full War of the Roses in the works. But I am pretty sure based on everything I've seen and heard (including especially behind the scenes stuff) that Philbin gave up on Ireland before Ireland gave up on Philbin. But that's really very logical. Jeff Ireland helped hire Joe Philbin. After having already survived the departure of Tony Sparano, he knew that he would not survive the departure of another head coach. His only hope of continuing on with the Miami Dolphins was to somehow patch up the relationship whereas when he finally checked out on Philbin I think he knew he would be leaving.

    In theory I agree. However I wonder to what extent they have really vetted Dennis Hickey and verified that he meshes so perfectly with Joe Philbin and Dawn Aponte. Consider how far DOWN the list the guy was. They wanted guys like Tom Gamble, Scott McCloughan, Marc Ross and Lional Vital to interview and they refused. Of course Eric DeCosta was a non-starter. They wanted Jason Licht and Ray Farmer to be the two finalists, perhaps along with Brian Gaine. First Jason Licht refused because he preferred the job offer he had in hand, then Ray Farmer refused because he didn't think it was the right fit for him. By the way a source I semi-trust says that had as much to do with the roster as anything else as he wasn't convinced about the direction Miami had been heading roster-wise and he wanted to rip up some floorboards.

    Then they offer the job to Nick Caserio and he refuses. Then they offer it to Lake Dawson (although this is something the Dolphins now deny, I have learned not to believe their denials because they have established a pattern of hiding the truth behind technicalities) and he refuses.

    Finally they offer it to Dennis Hickey. So after all that with AT LEAST four people having been put in front of Dennis Hickey in the order of preference, and probably more than that...how much did they REALLY get sold on how well Dennis Hickey works with Philbin and Aponte?

    My guess is that Dennis Hickey (who from my sources has always been very good at presenting himself to higher ups, especially in personal settings, telling people what they like to hear, etc)...essentially just sold them on the face of things that he loves the opportunity and would get along perfectly with everyone. And because they were so desperate and had been turned down by so many people they accepted his word at face value rather than allowing the work history and vetting process verify that they'll all get along.

    They could get along famously. Or they could not. To me it's a coin flip.
     
  8. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think they'll get along for this year at least, as both probably realize that this could be the only year they're together.

    In fact, the team is already leaking to Salguero how they are getting along famously, watching film every morning, pouring over scouting reports together, etc.

    We'll see. Like I said before, sometimes even an idiotic plan comes together and works.
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Oh incidentally I do disagree with one thing. I don't think the Dolphins would agree with the line of thinking that they hired a guy in Dennis Hickey that just gets along with Philbin and Aponte and isn't necessarily great at evaluating talent. They're idealists. They want us to believe he's great at evaluating talent too.

    There was a rumor a while back from a source whose reliability I can't vouch for to any degree that Philbin and Coyle were really high on Lavonte David but that Jeff Ireland overruled because he didn't meet his size standards. As we all know, the Bucs drafted Lavonte David and now he's a star. If that story is actually true I'm sure that would be one story they could all share with each other and kind of bond over. Which of course isn't scientific to any degree but unfortunately these things do often work like that.
     
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  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Desperation will make them get along well, I agree. Dennis Hickey's contract being the same length as Philbin's but with a team option for a third year probably sent the right message to him that you PROBABLY do not survive the dismissal of this coach and that you're here because of him.

    But you know, I'm pretty sure Jeff Ireland knew he wouldn't survive a Joe Philbin dismissal too. The difference is this time Joe Philbin knows he won't survive a Dennis Hickey dismissal. So yeah I'm sure everything is cakes and rainbows right now.

    But if the things in Dennis Hickey's history start to pop up in Miami then that will give certain people a bad taste in their mouth and that could also happen sooner than you'd think. George Kokinis lasted half a season before Aponte had him knee-capped and security escorted out of the building.
     
  11. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That certainly may be true, but every personnell guy or scout can probably point to one guy they liked that became a star that nobody else listened on.

    I think even Ireland laid some claim that he was able to take Parcells out of drafting Marcus Spears at the spot they eventually took Ware in.
     
  12. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    While she may be right, this is part of the problem I have with Aponte.

    Even if you had righteous intentions, you just can't go around people's backs like that constantly. Nobody will trust you, even if they think you had good reasons.

    You really think a Harbaugh or Malzahn wants to deal with that? Although maybe she'd be gone, if we could get somebody of that caliber, I don;t know
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I said it wasn't scientific to any degree. However yes things DO often work like that. "This guy liked Lavonte David too? Sold."
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    As a lawyer, I hope you understand the difference between being offered the job and "under the impression" one would be offered the job eventually.

    It could have been as easy as miscommunication. But no, the ONLY logical reason according to you, is that the evil FO lied!!!!!!!!!! Forget that every GM is skilled at lying because of the draft. Nah. Forget that.

    He MIGHT have been offered the job. Again, how do you not understand the difference between being offered a job and maybe, possibly, could have been kinda been offered a job. Also, "begged"? Really?

    We got used for leverage by 2 guys and to that I say...so? How effective would a bluff to go to Jax work? Not very...you know why?
     
  15. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All right Fin D, let's get down to brass tacks.

    Putting aside all the other nonsense regarding who is lying, what reports are true, etc., let's just take your last point because it's the only one that really matters.

    You think it is no big deal that only 2 guys used as leverage. Ok, fine. It was 2 this time. If you're intelectually honest, I think you would have to agree to include Harbaugh and Jeff Fisher on that list as well. So that's 4, that I think we should be able to agree on.

    Other than Cleveland, name me one other team in the past 10 years that has failed to land multiple candidates that it wanted to hire after interviewing them. Name me one other team that has been used for leverage at least 4 times in the last 10 years. And I'm talking strictly NFL. The leverage game as you describe does happen all the time in college.

    And I'm not talking about a desirable candidate weighing two separate opportunities and deciding one was better than another. Because you don't believe that's what happened here. You have claimed we were used simply as leverage and that none of the candidates had any problem with the structure and that reports to the contrary are lies.

    So, it's us and Cleveland. If you find another then I'll be impressed.
     
  16. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Per Peter King:

    Farmer WAS offered the Dolphins job and the main reason he turned it down was because he was offered the same 2 year, plus option contract that Hickey got.

    Also, Farmer did not know he would get Browns job when he turned us down. Farmer gained Haslam's trust when he sought his counsel regarding the Dolphins oepning and then his loyalty when he turned us down. It was only then that Haslam started considering promoting Farmer
     
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  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Oh wow. That's interesting.
     
  18. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Peter King also reports that farmer got a 4 year deal with the Browns but opines that given Haslam's history it probably doesn't matter
     
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  19. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is a huge LOL

    Per Mike Freeman, Browns reached out to Bill Parcells to be football czar.

    They seriously want to be the Dolphins. Copying us in every idiotic, dysfunctional way
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No. I don't know what actually happened with Harbaugh. None of us do. Fisher would have come here IF we met his demands. That's not using us for leverage. I'm not sure why people seem to forget, we were his first choice and had we given him his demands he'd be the coach of our team getting worse instead of making the Rams worse. If anything, he was using the Rams as leverage to convince us to give him what he wanted.

    Again, all i legitimately see is 2 and they were this year. That is intellectual honesty. I think it happened because the media and fans like yourself turned us into a target. Perception becomes reality. Case in point......

    As you said, let's get down to brass tacks......there have been reports of the following pertaining to Farmer:

    - He was our favorite before he was interviewed.
    - He was offered the job.
    - He was not offered the job.
    - He was probably going to be offered the job.
    - He declined the job offer not a second interview.
    - He declined a second interview not a job offer.
    - He declined the job offer or second interview because of the structure.
    - He declined the job offer or second interview because Aponte is a woman.
    - He declined the job offer or second interview because he was offered only a 2 year prove it deal.
    - He declined the job offer or second interview because he knew what was happening in Cleveland and preferred it there.

    Please tell me, why in the hairy hell I should believe any of that contradictory stuff that was all reported by the media that you defend to death? Please.

    At this point the only thing you have going in your favor is your already held bias fueled by disappointment in our team.
     
  21. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok, so it's my fault Casserio and Farmer used us as leverage?

    That's cool. Never knew I had that kind of power.

    What did you find on other teams being used like this? any luck thus far?
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yeah, I said you and only you and just specifically you.:pity:

    And that's all you got out that post? Jesus man, it should be against the law for you to use the phrase "intellectually honest". Please put me on ignore.
     
  23. Killer B's

    Killer B's Junior Member

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    All good points. In fact I live every day with a similar "son" dynamic. I still find it hard to believe Farmer turned down a second interview without conversations with Haslam on what the plan was for his future role with the team. He had to feel very secure and/or possibly knowing change was in the air (CEO and GM firing).

    The truth always lies somewhere in between and most people have an agenda.
     
  24. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Yeah, getting used as leverage (#leverage) isn't exactly something to brag about either.

    That's like saying "No, she didn't dump because of anything I did. It's because she never liked me in the first place. "

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
     
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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No one is bragging about anything. Secondly, this is not an uncommon practice nor is it something that automatically means its a negative either. Can it be a negative? Sure. Does it guarantee it? No.

    Again, the Jags don't get used as leverage and that's because its an undesirable job which makes it a bad bargaining chip. Caserio using us for leverage says more about him than us. As CK has pointed out you're likely to only get one chance to be a GM...so why gamble on an 8-8 team in flux when you can try and wait for a job where a GM from a 12 win team might retire? That doesn't mean anything inherently negative about us other than we are 8-8.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The problem to me is there's literally zero evidence of this scenario where Haslam told Farmer what was coming. It's a completely invented scenario. Haslam denied it directly, Farmer denied it directly, and now Peter King is saying that Haslam didn't even start to ponder the idea of firing Lombardi and Banner and promoting Farmer until AFTER Farmer denied the Dolphins.

    In fact the Browns reached out to Bill Parcells to be part of the organization according to Mike Freeman, so how in blazes could Farmer or even Haslam himself have known at THAT point in the timeline what was coming if they had that big of a fishing line still out in the water?

    It's pretty much just invented because people don't want to think Farmer just turned us down. But what EXACTLY is so weird about that? We know that Marc Ross, Lional Vital, Tom Gamble and Scott McCloughan refused to even interview with us. We know Nick Caserio turned us down. Lake Dawson says he turned Miami down. Do these guys all similarly know that they're going to be promoted to GM on their respective teams, soon?

    The answer is no. They refused for other reasons. So why is it so hard to believe Farmer did the same to where we're inventing scenarios based on zero evidence and lots of contrary testimony?
     
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  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Why is no one addressing this?

    I get called out on a nearly daily basis for being a "homer conspiracy theorist" because I say the sports media is a joke and not one of you who do that have addressed this. Why is that?
     
  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    They did release a story early on in their search that Hickey's interview blew them out of the water.
     
  29. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Forget about who was officially offered the job, you don't believe those reports anyway. The fact that the guy we eventually hired was like 9th at best on the wish list is pathetic. Gamble, McCloughan, DeCosta, Ross, Farmer, Caserio, Dawson, and Licht probably all would have been offered the job before Hickey. Not only that, he wasn't even really a legit GM candidate, we promoted a guy that was on the verge of being fired, we gave him the ultimate front office position, his dream position that he probably would have never been given anywhere else.
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You got all the info from the same group that can't even seem to get ANYTHING about Farmer correct.

    You choose to believe the bull **** being fed to you because it already jibes with your anger (and I assume, judging by your posts, you just like the taste of bull ****.) Why the hell should any of us believe that list was accurate?

    It is ridiculous for anyone to say "forget this track record of misinformation and instead be outraged by some other information coming from the same sources that mislead you already"....which is what you're doing.
     
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  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Which was later clarified to be because Steve Ross asked Hickey about random players from present and past (mostly from Michigan) to see if he could recall details about that player. Hickey was able to recall them, generally.

    Which induces an eye roll from me as to how much it actually qualifies Hickey to be a general manager as opposed to Team Scribe in his local Boy Scouts chapter.
     
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  32. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
     
  33. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Not disagreeing but doesn't being interviewed for a possible promotion give him leverage regardless of his motives? Gaining leverage doesn't have to be a sole or even primary reason IMO, any time your services are aought after by a competitor its pretty much a positive, no?
     
  34. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Great points, thanks.

    My only issue is that Philbin came to Miami as a career assistant with zero HC experience at any level, he never even called plays in GB. You could easily argue that he wasn't overly qualified for the HC job. So who is he to be telling Ireland or any other GM how to do his job?

    I think he's even less qualified to do that than he is at HC. His supposed area of expertise, OL and offense were the weakest links on the team by a significant margin last year. The consensus is that his hand picked OC did a poor job. Yet he went to the podium to say that Sherm was a great coach, then fired him a few days later. Was he defending his buddy or was his hand forced by Ross? I dunno but IMO if looks like a case of Philbin and Ireland failing to stay in their lanes when neither guy had done enough in their own position to get the benefit of the doubt or even whisper a complaint about what the other guy was doing.

    In that respect I'm glad Irish is gone. As for Philbin, it's getting harder and harder for me to be optimistic.
     
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  35. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    The discussion should just end with this post right here. 'Nough said.
     
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  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All that stuff is noise. I want to address this, he used us as leverage for a job he had all locked up.

    He had locked up a job still being held by someone else for what, two months? The fact the CEO and GM get fired, after they fire and hire a head coach, all but guarantees Farmer had nothing locked up when he turned us down.
     
  37. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    so what are you saying, you don't believe we requested to interview Gamble and McCloughan and DeCosta etc? Hickey was basically our last resort, the only person that was lower on the totem pole than him was Gaine, if he ever had any realistic chance at the job in the first place.
     
  38. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house
    we really need to have a good draft and a really good offseason. I am looking forward to better times because I am sick of being negative and I am sick of the bad publicity we have been getting.
     
  39. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    ...
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I never said he had the job all locked up. I think he used his interview and the reports of him being the favorite to help push Haslam into making a decision to 86 Lombardi.

    He is the GM of the Browns as we speak after all.

    Its not "just noise" either. It is the only source of information we have on the subject. Considering how much they've gotten wrong and considering he is currently the GM of the Browns, how can you with any conviction argue against it?
     

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