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Joe Philbin: Utterly Clueless

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Ill just say this. I manage a business with 60 employees. I know all their names their spouses and kids if ive met them or they speak of them. I spend of few minutes of every morning saying hi and finding out how they are. Granted my 60 aren't millionaire athletes but they are good people. People who have good days bad days ya know I've had my share. Ive fixed cars been a marriage counsler helped people move cooked for ill and injured etc. Because these people make me great.

    Not saying an NFL coach has got to help anybody move or make sure they have dinner for their kids or health care or anything...but dang it if you even gave half a whit you would have known sumthin was wrong. And if you didn't it was because nobody trusted you as a leader and mentor to come to you when they needed help.

    EPIC FAIL!
     
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  2. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Overruled by Ross. I don't recall any proof that Aponte had any say so at all in the matter.
     
  3. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When faced with a totally incompetent offensive line, Philbin should have subjected everyone in the least bit connected with it to questioning, from the position coach to his assistants, the strength and conditioning coaches, the trainers, the players and the director of security.

    One-on-one interviews behind closed doors with a promise of confidentiality, to see what factors were causing or contributing to the horrible play. Was there drug use going on? Were the players drinking too much and staying out too late at night? Partying too hard?

    Maybe someone would have said something then, but even if no one did, at least we could say that Philbin had been hands-on. I don't know whether or not Philbin ever did this, but it seems reasonable that a good head coach would have thought of it.

    Didn't we use to have a director of security named Weinstein whose job it was to know what was going on with the players, on and off the field? Is he still with the team? If not, was he ever replaced? If so, his replacement was sleeping on the job. If not, the ship is being run way too loosely for having hundreds of millions of dollars invested.
     
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  4. Califin

    Califin Well-Known Member

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    As much as I had hoped the best for Philbin and still do, he made a costly error early on, that sharply undermined my confidence and belief in his decisionmaking ability.
    I knew the consequences of it would shape, if not ultimately define Philbin's opportunity here as head coach.
    That error in my estimation was in naming Mike Sherman his OC, and my belief in his impending effect on Philbin's tenure has never wavered.

    Three problematic factors outweighed any potentially positive outcome. This, aside from the hope Sherman might somehow perform better than anything in his prior history suggested.

    1. Sherman provided Philbin his initial opportunity in coaching:
    -Philbin felt indebted and obliged to return the opportunity.

    2. Sherman was his former teacher:
    -Philbin had always looked up to Sherman, and still referred to him as his mentor.

    3. Sherman had extensive experience in head coaching at both the collegiate and pro levels.
    (An extensive history of coaching, but by no convincing measure, was
    any of it proven to be "championship" caliber football)
    -Nevertheless Philbin had neither.

    Soon after any awkward moments of appreciation, and salutations of mutual respect were expressed, its my belief the natural relationship between them would see the teacher
    in a position commanding absolute knowlege and control, as the pupil assumed a position conceding as much.
    Sherman gravitated to his place of comfort, one of unchallenged power, while Philbin played along as token overseer.

    I believe Philbin was unaware of the Martin situation because I believe the entire offensive side of the program was orchestrated and governed by Sherman.
    Does this excuse Philbin? Not by any means, it simply reveals, and further supports my belief of how little he intimately knew, or associated with those players.

    I suspect Ross discovered this, and under the naive belief Philbin merely shortchanged himself, allowed him another chance to perform without Sherman at the helm.

    Admittedly I've become a Sherman hater, but thats my speculative bit and I'm sticking to it.
     
     
  5. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree. Sherman may have been a factor in Philbin's not being hands on, and making no effort to ferret out why the offensive line was playing so badly -- so as not to make his former mentor look bad. But if that was the case, he delegated too much responsibility to Sherman, and did nothing as the season progressed and nothing improved. If so, Philbin was at least negligent, if not grossly negligent, and is to a very large degree responsible for this mess.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    And for all we know Philbin is doing EXACTLY the same thing.

    What people are forgetting to understand is that Martin did everything he could to hide the fact his problems were with specific players.

    Martin and Martin's dad came to Philbin with Problem A. Martin and Martin's family hid Problem B from Philbin and everyone else. Philbin immediately took action to help Problem A.

    Its your and other's contention that Philbin should have known about Problem B even though no one else did. So I'm asking from you and others how you would have known Problem B existed in a detailed and specific manner. Remember, from all outward appearances Martin enjoyed the company of his teammates.
     
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  7. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    See post no. 83 in this thread.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He knew why the line was sucking. He knew martin wasn't very good, but he was the best option they had at the time. That's why he wanted Martin replaced but Ireland refused.

    He knew Jerry wasn't very good either, but again he was the best option they had.

    He knew Clabo wasn't acclimated yet, and all the help had to go to Martin's side and once again, he was the best of what they had.

    Our line troubles on the field had nothing to do with this stuff.

    Not only that, but Philbin had a one-on-one conversation with Martin. He had a conversation with Martin's father too. Neither of them told coach about the "bullying". So any potential problem Philbin may have suspected was answered with issues Martin did bring up. Martin never showed he had a problem in the locker room, in fact, the opposite was true. He pretended like he was a part of it and enjoyed it.

    You guys are asking for Philbin to do the impossible.
     
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  9. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    True to a degree. It's part of his job but bottom-line, no one cares about the "culture" except that a "winning culture" is present. That's the bottom line here, DJ. That is the absolute bottom line for a coach and the absolute core their agenda. This is what fans like you are ultimately saying if you say (and 98% of fans will say this) that a coach must be gone if he does not win. That is the message. That is the #1 Moral Commandment for coaches: "Just Win Baby" and that's what coaches focus on. They aren't asking, "Hope these guys get along well and hope they are good little boys all the time." Other than that they don't get into trouble that leads to a suspension.

    The core issue is that you can't tell a player- go crazy in some areas as long as it is not illegal; be a completely carnal animal on the field and off the field except for 2-3 areas. It isn't going to work and you will wind up with Incognitos. That's the NFL.

    Philbin is not going to know everything that goes on. He has a job as a coach and also has his own life. Whether it's locker room shenanigans (which, to one degree or another, have been a part of the NFL culture for decades), or even on the field performance, it is a continual challenge for a coach to get his players to buy in to what he was saying as well and it's a 100 hour a week job as it is just to try to win games.

    If Philbin does not know there is a problem between players - or one that significantly rises above the norm - he cannot control that. There are plenty of SB winning teams where there are players who don't get along and where some are just obnoxious. Or it comes out they did something stupid to or with another player.

    I have never liked Turner - he doesn't strike me as very smart and he only seems like a "tough-guy" coach - which really isn't what wins. But, I think that while it was clear there was a problem with some players - the fact that others just shut up and took it indicates one can't fully blame Philbin.

    Philbin missed it. He didn't see it. But, these are - from Turner's situation - some isolated incidents over 2 years; no way is a coach - who may be having a crushing week of pressure - going to see all those things. Philbin likely just expected that these guys were acting like normal players. Although it is likely that Philbin wanted Incognito gone but his hands were tied.

    I think the crying by Battista is over-the-top. She is operating from a completely different cultural framework.

    Philbin is a bit dysfunctional. But, Bill Belichick is a bit dysfunctional as well.

    Ppl were not blaming Belichick for not knowing he had a gang-member murderer on his team (for the most part). I would wager that nearly every team in the NFL has guys that are close to Hernandez types. And, in the case of Miami - it was abuse from Incognito and Pouncey for the most part. Not an excuse for their conduct. But, the reality is, players do stuff behind coaches and teams backs all the time and they just get away with it. Especially if everyone is hush-hush about it. And, if they don't see that the player appears to have a problem with it. Martin never related any of his problems to the football culture there - to the coaches.

    A big part of this is the whole culture of football and the kind of players that play it and the fans and media that support it. So, I don't think there can be anyone standing in a place of judgment on this - unless they have been not-supporting the sport and condemning it for some time already. The reasons are many …

    A) It takes an animalistic attitude for most of these guys to function in their positions; they are killing themselves physically (literally!) and mentally.

    B) No one cares where these guys come from for the most part. No one. No one cares that a huge percentage of these players themselves come from terrible parenting situations. Sometimes generational poverty; no father; abusive fathers; dysfunctional fathers (Does anyone know how Incognito was raised? Does anyone doubt that his dad was screwed up and it just carried over to his son?). This is the reality about most of the players entering into this football culture and also contributing to the culture.

    C) The NFL media can't throw stones unless they want to go after every immoral idiot on every team. And, if they do that, they will likely be ostracized over it. Several years ago a reporter at ESPN did an expose on the wild partying and sex-capades of NFL players - their abuse of prostitutes, etc. It was horrific to read about. He was shunned by players after that (I exchanged a few emails with him). So, the media have no place to stand with an accusatory hand - unless they are calling out players for all kinds of off-field immoral activity.

    C) The moral judgments about this situation belie the reality that fans want winning football and don't care to know everything about the players lives off the field. They don't care very much about who the players are character wise - as long as they 1) perform on the field; 2) don't get in trouble with the law off the field. Otherwise, fans will support the team and watch the games and ignore the players' personal lives off the field. When we do that, we lose the right to jump in and judge when something blows up. When we watch the game; when we go to the game - if we are going to judge a player or coach on this moral issue - judge them on all - and judge ourselves for supporting a sport that allows players who are crazy and often a-moral, let alone immoral, off the field. THere will be some in which it will carry over into the locker room.

    This is not to throw support behind Philbin or any other player or coach. It is to note that it's grossly inconsistent for people to stand on the moral high ground on this issue with all the other stuff that everyone shoves under the rug.
     
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  10. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Nonsense on the negligence. He trusted Sherman. If you trust someone and they have had experience and success as a coach - well, it is what it is. People do this all the time. And, sometimes they get burned.

    This is what building a staff is about. You have to find people you trust to handle their responsibilities well without you looking over their shoulders constantly. And, there's one priority Philbin has in that - it is that the coach is producing winning football. The fact that the fans and media ultimately care about that above all else tells the message to the coach: win. And, the only way a head coach can do that is to get guys on his staff who can do their job and players that can do theirs. Philbin is not a great people person. But, there are all-types of coaches in the NFL who have won who are not that way. He may never be a successful coach, but this argument on negligence is just over-the-top.
     
  11. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I respect your argument, but I disagree. In any organization, there has to be an inquiry when things are going badly in a department, even if you start out with trust in the guy who runs the department for you. Blind trust resulting in no inquiry at all is the willful blindness best exemplified by an ostrich, and is negligence by definition.

    That doesn't mean that I think Philbin is going to get fired. He won't. But it's time for Philbin to stand on his own two feet as a head coach, without the crutch of his former teacher and mentor.
     
  12. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    excellent post
     
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  13. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Because problem B was not a problem until "lawyers" (Martin's Mother) saw an opportunity to get Martin paid. Martin was on his way out. Within a year or two he was going to be out of football. Now he will be most likely set for life. I'd tell him to go pound sand.
     
  14. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How anyone who read the report can still have this opinion is beyond me?

    And if he wanted to sue, he would have done so already.
     
  15. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Philbin is a HC , not a personal psychologist or guidance counselor. There comes a time when you have to put trust in someone and expect them to have individual maturity and respect for themselves and each other. This is a professional NFL team we`re talking about here not a group of grade school children who need constant supervision. Philbin did nothing wrong, he put his trust in his players and coaches to act like professionals. That falls on them as individuals not Philbin.
     
  16. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Was Martin the only guy being grossly mistreated? What about the Japanese staffer or the OLineman Turner and the unit was ridiculing?

    Martin coming to Philbin and Incognito being a d-ck in general (golf course) should have raised Philbin's awareness to the bullsh-t going on in that unit. How could he let Turner continue to act the way he did? Shouldn't he have gone to Turner and filled him in on the crap taking place? Shouldn't he have monitored the OL more closely given the known toxic chemistry of the characters in that group?

    These are the kinds of things out in the open that a HC must make it a point to see to and reign in.
     
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  17. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Don't worry it's coming. Most likely it will not be the Dolphins directly, but the real fat cat - THE NFL

    Martin will be compensated - most likely undisclosed amount
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Understand and understood, what's your opinion on how a coach builds chemistry on a team?, I mean you cannot just take an outside looking in type approach to getting your team unified enough to become a family, because I believe it takes that sort of bonding to accomplishlish the goal of winning the Super Bowl, a very tight knot group, how could philbin build that chemistry with his approach.?

    Imo, It starts with selecting the right players, and getting rid of the ones that do not..I think as a coach you have to have the ability and presence to motivate 53 guys to come togetherness care enough, and on some level inspire them with your process of doing so..
     
  19. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Martin has no claim against the NFL

    His only claim, if any, is against the team. And given the report I doubt he could even make that claim. Not to mention that suing your employer is about the dumbest thing you can do if you wish to continue working in that industry
     
  20. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't necessarily think that Philbin knew about this stuff and didn't stop it but him not even being aware of this stuff does make him look a bit clueless. I'm not blaming him first and foremost, I don't think he is responsible for players behavior outside of the locker room and off the field but I do think a lot of teams would have fired a coach in his spot. I think Ross just likes Philbin personally a lot and made a decision based on emotion. I'm not totally against keeping Philbin, I don't think he's terrible, but I do think most organizations would have fired him this offseason right or wrong.
     
  21. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    wait a minuet If Dave Wannstedt discovered a plot by McMichael and Weaver to get Ricky and Fiedler to switch positions at least Wanny would know about it and you compare that to Joe Philbin and he had news bulletins and full wall to wall coverage and Philbin still didn't know what was going on ; doesn't that make you wonder what is it going to take for Philbin to do something . Philbin is guilty of dereliction of duty and Ross needs to fire him and if we have so much crap going on in defensive meetings then the dc , the d line coach should go as well.
     
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  22. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Correct. He should have managed the situation. In doing nothing, he let the situation manage him.
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You mean the lineman that just came out and said the report was BS? The staffer I cannot comment on because.....of info...that's not mine to tell.

    You have assistant coaches because as the HC you have other things to do. Its likely Philbin wasn't in the room when the blow up doll happened and its even more likely that everyone in the room laughed it off like it wasn't a big deal. The Well's Report is nothing more than a chronicling of events without context. Well's press release tells everything we need to know about the topic.....Philbin did what he could, Martin did feel bullied and did hide it from everyone on the team, the players that "bullied" him didn't know he felt bullied and had no ill intent thinking they were just being friends.
     
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  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Again, he knew the oline problems was due to a lack of talent that Ireland was responsible for. For the problems he knew Martin had, he helped. For the problems Martin hid from EVERYONE on the team, is Martin's responsibility. And Martin actively hid them. You guys make it sound like Martin was in the corner of the locker room crying in front of everyone. He wasn't, he did that away from everyone. He was out laughing and having good time, texting jokes back in forth, pulling pranks, etc. No one should have suspected more. There was no situation to manage.

    There is no reason for Philbin or anyone else on that team to suspect Martin was having a problem with the guys on the oline. Even the Wells report says that.

    The coaches knew the oline was playing like crap but that's because the talent was crap. Martin sucked, Jerry sucked, Clabo was old and Cogs was a douche. Philbin had no control over that, if he did our line would have had Albert as the LT, Martin as a back up and Cogs off the team. Why do you think they were trying so many different oline formations this offseason?
     
  25. Phin5.0

    Phin5.0 New Member

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    Except that's not what he said. He didn't say anything of the sort. Talking about trying to fabricate things to meld into your own preconceived ideas. He never once said that the report wasn't factual. He said he didn't agree with how the events were portrayed.

    Which makes complete sense considering he was portrayed as a bigger wuss than even JMartin and he's currently struggling to make a living as a practice squad member of the Panthers. He damn sure isn't too happy for his current teammates to know the abuse he took as a member of the Dolphins' locker room.

    That's not what the report says at all, and that's a huge mischaracterization of the report itself. Did you actually even read the report? Because I did.

    First, the things that were going on were not limited to the locker room and outside activities. They also took place on the practice field, repeatedly. Second, it wasn't just the OL group that new what was going on, that's made clear by the account of what happened the moments before Martin walked off the team.

    Even if you believe the coaching staff isn't involved in the locker room (which is garbage, IMO), as has been stated many times it's up to the trainers and equipment staff to be the "eyes and ears" of the coaches in the locker room because they are there as witness.

    To believe that Philbin is absolved is to believe that it's okay that his entire coaching staff and training staff and equipment staff were all lying to him and that he didn't realize it. There's mountains of evidence supplied in the report to say that Philbin just didn't know (even though he had enough clues to follow through and find out), but isn't that an even bigger failing on his part?
     
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  26. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Excellent post. just the facts you read with no slant or agenda. Not pro or anti Dolphin, just trying to piece together the facts with some common sense.
     
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  27. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Because Philbin knew that except for Pouncey, everybody sucked, and he was hoping against hope that someone already on the roster would rise to the occasion and show him something at any position on the line. Nobody did.
     
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  28. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    No disrespect but the odds of Martin ever wearing an NFL uniform again are astronomical. Incognito has a better shot. And a bigger grievance at this point.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Saying the events portrayed were inaccurate in a report that was about listing the events that happened, is absolutely saying the report is bs. So much so, I'm not sure why you're even trying to pick such a semantics fight.

    And sure, a player says something you don't agree with, so he's liar and your evidence he's lying is that he's a wuss. Do I have your thoughts about wrapped up on this?

    Yes that is what the report says. Did you read all the times in that report how Wells absolved Philbin? Did you also read in the official press release how Wells absolved Philbin? What this si turning into, is the report should believed without context, but when context is added in (like Wells clarifying that Martin and Martin's camp never told Philbin he had a problem with specific players) then its irrelevant. Or when context is added from players (like when the locker room 100% backed Cogs or MacDonald saying the events were portrayed incorrectly) then they are just lying. That's forcing results to fit your narrative.

    The simple fact of the matter is that we had a locker room devoid of veteran leadership (Ireland's fault) and a player in Martin that simply could not deal with normal locker room stuff (no one's fault). There were guys that occasionally crossed the line (Cogs, Pouncey & Turner's fault) but we're not talking to some heinous offenses here. And Martin purposely hid what he was really feeling and pretended that he actually enjoyed it all (Martin's fault). Philbin wanted Cogs gone before the start of the season and he wanted someone better at LT then Martin but that didn't happen (Ireland's fault). Its absurd to bundle all of that up and say its Philbin's fault for not stopping normal locker room behavior and not being able to read Martin's mind. The entire coaching and training staff didn't tell Philbin there was a problem because they didn't really feel there was a problem. The only person that felt there was a problem was Martin and he hid it.

    Meanwhile, no one questions Belichick why a thug can murder and run guns under his nose or questions Cowher why his star QB was able to be a serial rapist or no one questioned any of Vick's coaches why he was able to have entire illegal syndicate of dog fighting and gambling under their noses.....on and on the list goes.
     
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  30. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    These are all things away from team and the facility that nobody knew about.

    There is no parallel at all.

    And once Hernandez was accused of the crime, he was immediately cut. So was Vick. Maybe Ben should have been dealt with more harshly, I don;t know, but he was never actually convicted of anything.

    It is a lot to ask of a coach to know that his QB is running a dog fighting ring in another state, or that his TE has a flop house where he was running guns. It is not so much to ask a head coach to know what his assistant coaches are doing IN THE FACILITY, or what his players are doing on the practice field or during warmups.

    It's also not a lot to ask that once you are alerted to a particular problem that you actually do something about it. Philbin was wilfully ignorant here. The report paints this "See noe vil" routine as a positive and credits him that he would have done something had he known, which is great and all, but the fact is, he had chances to intervene, or at least make himself more aware and failed.
     
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  31. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    At this point, I really don't care to argue what degree of negligence Philbin had in all this.

    Bottom line is, like it or not, he's going to be the Dolphins head coach next season. What I'm more interested in knowing is what has he learned?
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No. Hernadez was a known problem. Even Brady talked to Tebow about him, because eh was such a problem. Michael Vick included other players in what he was doing, they all knew it and no one stopped him. There are plenty of parallels you just don't like them because they don't confirm your previously held beliefs.

    Yes it is a lot to ask a coach. Philbin stopped CJ and we see how the players responded to that.

    In the end the perfect person to blame is Ireland. He got rid of veterans and brought in players like Martin and Cogs and you guys already hate Ireland. But no, instead you want to blame a guy for not reading people's minds when you could just blame the guy responsible whom you already loathe. That tells me you're not really interested in blame or fairness just bitterness.
     
  33. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oy.

    And your continued defenses of this unacceptable behavior tells me you expect a medal or something from the team once they realize what a loyal soldier you've been on their behalf.

    I'm sorry that you see no difference between a coach in Atlanta being expected to know what Michael Vick is doing in Virginia on his personal time and what a coach should know about what his own coaches and players are up to at the facility and on the practice fields, where said coach spends 15 hours plus per day.

    I understand a coach not knowing about what players are doing on their phones or when they are off together. If that was all there was then I could see Philbin getting a full pass. But there was more to that, that you don't acknowledge.
     
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  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yeah, I'm gunning for a medal, sigh, :pity:

    Try to put this all together, the behavior wasn't that bad and is common not only in locker rooms but also other non office businesses, I'm talking everything from restaurants to construction. The only reason it all looks so bad now is because a player had a problem with it and made that problem public well after the problem could have been solved. case in point, Rex Ryan and his staff plan and order a code red, then its carried out all on TV. The targeted player doesn't ***** so no one looks down on this. Then we see just how undisciplined the entire Jets team is and still nothing form the likes of you. Hell, you'd probably cream yourself to get Rex Ryan as HC. then when it was said that coaches tried to have Martin toughened up, you guys lose your collective ****. Why? Because Martin framed the narrative. Did these guys maybe a go a little too far? Sure, probably. Did they do anything even remotely warranting the level of holy hell freak out you and The Hater's Club are acting like? No, not even close. This should be a smaller story than Hernadez and Big Rape, but thanks to you guys a practical joke involving a male blow up doll is the single biggest crime in the history of football.
     
  35. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, the Haters Club, which apparently includes Ted Wells and Roger Goddell has caused this problem.

    Not Richie Incognito and his sycophants, but the Haters Club.

    Some of your posts have to be satire
     
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  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ted Wells absolves Philbin, you do not. So yes, Hater's Club.

    I guarantee you Goodell is not the one that wanted this story blown out of proportion.
     
  37. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All I'm doing is holding Philbin to a higher standard than Wells did.

    I agree with the fact that he didn't know, I just think he probably should have.

    And the people who complain about the story being blown out if proportion are just upset that it came out at all. You'd rather blame the victim for upsetting the apple cart then the guys who perpetrated the bad act. Countless former players have said that this stuff went well beyond normal locker room talk and that somebody else should have stepped in.
     
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  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    He absolved him of knowing what was going on. That doesn't absolve him of incompetence.
     
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  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm not blaming Martin for anything other than not telling anyone in charge. I've been pretty consistent in that. I don't blame Martin for how he felt, I haven't called him a wuss or anything like that. I do think he holds responsibility for not telling anyone that could have stopped it however. I've said that Cogs and them probably went too far, but just not to the point where this is the worse thing ever.

    There's no way Philbin should have known because Martin purposely and specifically hid it from him.
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    There was put-downs occuring on the practice field, in meeting rooms, in front of assistant coaches. A good coach absolutely should have the pulse of the team and know when these things are happening.
     
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