Those things are normal. They are only a problem because it was a problem for Martin, but Martin purposely hid the problem from Philbin. If Philbin had cracked down on the put downs he would have been blasted by the team. Let's not forget how well him trying to teach CJ about acting like a fool went.
...particularly when this is the very unit that one of its members (and his father) came to you about to voice concerns. And particularly when another of its members treats people terribly (golf course). Coaches have to act on these red flags, not just nod and look away.
An decent former offensive line coach should maybe show some concern for the player playing the most important position on the offensive line. Martin apparently told Philbin he was having a hard time in May, and then there was no follow up after that. It's obvious that Philbin didn't care about Martin as a human being, but is it too much to ask for Philbin to care about Martin as playing one of the most important positions for the team's success in Philbin's own supposed area of expertise? I used to read scripts for a living. This Philbin character is pretty well drawn.
I'll ask this again because I'd really like to be swayed and not think Philbin is a clueless dolt but how can the HC not know something was up? This wasn't an isolated incident. This happened a lot, to multiple players and for his entire time as a HC. Lets assume he really didn't know any of it. He seems like a good enough guy that I'll give him the benefit of doubt but isn't that in itself an issue? On top of that this happened between the OL. That's Philbins forte. You'd think he'd have at least a passing interest in it. I'm sorry but I just have a hard time believing he didn't once wonder that something was up but even if he didn't, and he had no idea, that in itself is a problem. Is he really that clueless?
...and yet neither Martin or his father brought up the stuff about bullying. I've yet to hear a realistic reason as to why Philbin should have known what Martin was purposely hiding from him.
Whether they are normal or not shouldn't be a consideration. The Dolphins created their own policy, which Joe Philbin presumably was well-aware of. The policy prohibited harassment, and defined it as: These things were occurring on the practice field and meeting rooms. Assistant coaches were well aware. If team policies are being violated, that needs to be communicated to Philbin from his assistants.
These things were not known to be unwelcome until Martin finally spoke up. Until he did speak up, they weren't unwelcome. Again, you've never worked in a restaurant.
His assistants and leadership didn't know either. What part of Martin purposely hiding all of this from everyone is so goddamn hard to understand? Martin, in front of everyone, pretended like he enjoyed all of this and even participated in it. There is NO reason to think he had a problem with it.
Wait a minute. Are you telling me that there's trash talking going on in the NFL practice field? Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Everyone said Philbin is no fun and devoid of personality after watching him pick up trash and lecture CJ on his language. Now people are pissed he isn't stamping out people joking around and he isn't paying enough attention to the details. The last time he got onto a player about language and being a professional, the leaders on the team formed a council and questioned Philbin's motives. Its a no win situation that people are just looking for villains over.
The policy specifies a violation IF deemed unwelcome. Martin did not indicate that the contact/speech/whatever was unwelcome. He hid how disturbed he was by it. Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
The policy says unwelcome. If it appeared no one had a problem with the level of joking around, then it wasn't unwelcome. I get it, its me so you want to argue, but c'mon man.
So, I take it, you're giving passes out to the 52 other guys who were really there in that room? It really must be wonderful to be a millionaire, have a great job yet have no real personal responsibility. Sit around all day do drugs, get drunk, rape women, and bully others while the outside world decides that you boss must have that which you don't. Damn no wonder they want to be FB players .... can I be a FB player too?
Kevin O'Neill seemed to understand he was bothered by it (though he did nothing to help) The unnamed d-lineman who offered Martin sanctuary with their group seemed to realize there was a problem. Nate Garner seemed to realize there was a problem. The other unnamed players who told Wells that Martin seemed to be upset about the harrasment udnerstood there was a problem. So, it wasn't quite as unknown as Fin D and others want to make it. But the real issue is that none of these other players stepped up and did anything to stop it once it became obvious that Martin wouldn't. Had any of them done so, not only would we have identified a real leader amongst the players (not fake ones like Incognito or Pouncey) but we might have avoided this entire problem.
I`m sure Philbin seen and heard a portion of what was going on and probably realized its common ground in the NFL as far as normal hazing and good natured ribbing among team mates is concerned. However, Philbin is not their personal guardian 24/7 . A good amount of verbal abuse took place during the players personal time and during off days and nights. I truly believe Philbin was unaware of the magnitude of the relentless torture Martin, and others, endured because the players chose to try and deal with it rather then expose the truth and have the verbal abuse escalate even further. Everyone has their breaking point and Martin broke... much to the delight of Incognito regardless of the nonsense and lies he`s trying to get people to believe. When Philbin became aware of the seriousness of the abuse he stepped in, he didn't ignore it. I believe he would have stepped in sooner if the truth was revealed sooner but it wasn't, by players choice.
Look you can say whatever you want about whether Martin should have said something or not, but when he says he didn't know that's is why he should be gone, an operation with 70 players and a dozen coaches it shouldn't be hard to know what is going on, Philbin should resign because he had responsibility for the well being of his players and he failed. Ross should have fired him for not developing the culture he says he wanted for the team. So Ross is an idiot for putting up with this ****.
Bomani Jones is talking about this right now on the Lebatard show. Agree wholeheartedly. The way to deal with it is to not go along with it. Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
You cant possibly come away with that assumption after reading the entire case. That is just so wrong to believe Philbin just didn't care.
You`re right Philbin should have held his players hands and supervised them like they`re school children 24/7. Lets not forget a good portion of the abuse took place during the players free time. Or, is Philbin responsible for not being there and tucking them all in every night also. And everyday before practice Philbin should have confiscated all cell phones and read all the texts that were exchanged between players to assure they were acting like good little boys.
I've never heard of anyone wanting to be put-down. Either way, its clear the players knew it was unwelcome. I'm not sure how all the players could know something, but the head coach has no idea.
I can't possibly come away with that assumption? Okay. Please let me know what assumptions I can come away with after reading the whole case, since I'm doing it wrong.
There are a lot of people on this forum who understand that it's just a part of life and would surely put their heads down and bear it.
If you read the whole case, as did I, I`d like to know where its written Philbin didn't care about Martin as a human being. Or, where that's even remotely implied.
It was not implied; I inferred it from my life experience. I should have said, "in my opinion, it is obvious that Philbin doesn't care..." Would you come back and say "you can't possibly have that opinion?"
That's makes a world of difference. I still don't agree with you at all, but its your opinion none the less. I just happened to form an opinion on what was and what wasn't actually written and determined by the investigators at hand. And, according to those that handled it all, it was never determined that Philbin didn't care about Martin as a human being. Actually they came away feeling Philbin was quite credible in his support for Martin once he was alerted to the goings on. It says so in the report.
Very little was done in the facility. You are talking about a few incidents with Turner over a period of 500 days together. The majority of the problems related to texts. And, several cultures in America talk that way. It's the culture. I'm not excusing that but within those cultural frameworks many find that normal language. Martin did not but no one really understood that. No one knew. If you see Martin and Cogs sitting together; joking; laughing; always hanging out and talking. If on the field you see Incognito standing up for Martin and you are trying to coach the whole team - even if occasionally you see some issues (heck, no one is always going to get along in such close proximity - think of how many divorces there are!) - there is no way you are going to think something terrible is going on. If you saw Martin and Incognito fighting, bickering - then you might. That's where you and other fans are missing the point. The point is that Martin was acting on the outside as though everything was normal. He was participating in pranks, hazing, and laughing and joking. He was hanging out with Incognito. Bottom line: Leave every single external fact in this case the same and remove from the case the sense - only going on within Martin's mind - that he was being abused or bullied by Incognito, and no observer would know there was a problem. Turner should be removed, but it's unreasonable to think that the couple bad incidents perpetrated by Turner would have been known by Philbin over a two year period with hours on end of practice and film review. You also forget that Hernandez threatened Welker in the locker room. And, Welker had nothing good to say about him. And, that Hernandez did have problems and was spoken to by the Patriot management. They hoped things were going better for him. I don't hold the Pats responsible nor do I hold Philbin. The other factor being ignored is that, like it or not, a significant percentage of NFL players - including Incognito - come from severely damaged environments (so, too, Martin, given his situation; so, too, Pouncey - might as well lay the blame on Urban Meyer for Pouncey and Hernandez; and throw some blame to the GM who drafted Pouncey). Throw those together and unless you radically alter how players from rough backgrounds are treated - maybe even keeping them out - and pump millions into mandatory counseling programs and completely change the game itself and this is what you are going to get. Being an NFL coach - just getting players ready to play on the field (from film watching; organization; strategy; practice preparation; etc.) - is a 90-100 hour a week job - and you forget that Philbin himself is coming out of a deeply tragic situation and has his own family needs. To lay blame on Philbin, given the whole situation, is nonsense. And the bottom line is - nothing really bad happened to Martin. He wasn't raped. He wasn't shot. He wasn't physically assaulted. I'm not saying what was done to him was good - but those players did not think he was taking it badly. They were ignorant and existing within a cultural setting that accepted those methods as pretty normal. This is especially the case given that both offensive and defensive players defended Incognito. I think it's right that the NFL change things. But, that is going to have to happen at the start - before and during the draft and the whole culture of the NFL will have to change - from ownership down.
Philbin didn't care enough about Martin to be proactive. He sent him to therapy, and then just accepted that everything was okay based on superficial (if any) follow up. In my opinion, Philbin failed Martin as a person and Philbin failed his football team. He gets another chance, though, and we all have to accept that.
I respect you and your opinion, but you're going to have to explain to me how Philbin missed the "simulated sex acts" on Martin's sister that cogs and crew acted out on the practice field and in pre-game warmups. Even if Martin outwardly shows no distress, a boss simply can't allow that to occur. You're also going to have to explain to me how Philbin, after hearing about Martin's issues in May and advising him to receive treatment, does virtually no follow up, and then plays ignorant when the bleep hits the fan. And Martin's feelings were not that secret. Garner knew he was having a tough time. Kevin O'Newill, the trainer, who had an obligation to go to Philbin if Martin wouldn't, knew he was having a tough time. The unnamed d-lineman, and probably other guys on the d-line, knew Martin was having trouble and in fact offered him sanctuary in their group. So, that's at least 3, and in reality probably more that knew something was going on. So, you'll forgive me for finding it hard to believe that Philbin, who knew that Martin was depressed, wouldn't have been keeping an extra watchful eye. But even looking at this in the best light for Philbin, which the Wells report does, he was compeltely ignorant of this major problem in his locker room with lieutenants who had zero issue lying directly to his face (Turner). That is the sign of poor leadership. If he can't get his hand picked coaches and trainers to tell him the truth and keep him in the loop, what player is ever going to fully trust or respect him? Lastly, Philbin's personal tragedy is not really relevant. If anything, you'd think that would make him more sensitive to the needs of troubled young men.
In all seriousness what should he have done? Philbin is an NFL head coach not a therapist, That's why he sent him to a professional who handles that sort of thing. What would you have done in that situation ? Curious. Also, I don't believe he failed his team , he actually held them all together for the most part after this all leaked out, or so it seemed.
I like to subscribe to the theory that either a) Philbin knew he had no way of stopping the hazing so he claimed ignorance or b) tried to talk to Incognito and was told to go **** himself. That is simply my opinion.
Neither A or B. I cant see Philbin claiming ignorance , he doesn't seem like that type of person from what I gather. And, theres no way he would have tolerated that response from Incognito.
great post, ultimately the bolded is what it comes down to and the main point of the article I posted.
Correction, "Lieutenant", singular. While I do believe this does lie on Philbin's shoulders, my main concern right now is the fact that this went down. My main concern is that Jim Turner is still on the team after lying to both him and Wells.
No? What would he have done about it? He wanted Incognito gone after the gild incident and couldn't do squat about it. What makes you think he would have been able to do something about being told to get bent by Incognito, especially when Ireland was in RI's corner?
