The green ears/paint deal was a case of what Marty called the "Detective's Curse." The answers being right in front of them, but being too close to see it. I thought that was a perfect example of that. And Rust being surprised by Marty's moment of brilliance was a nice touch to show that he really did feel he was a better detective/person than Marty. And in an earlier episode, Rust reference a moment of clarity, and writing down everything in his book because you never know what little detail or thought may crack a case. Ultimately, a seemingly innocuous photo during retcon from 17 years ago, ended up busting it open. As for the dolls, I agree that that was a bit of a red herring. But given his daugher's established sexual act outs in further episodes, you could chalk it up to her simply lashing out, as were her pictures in school, as were her sexual trysts with two guys at once. All because her father seemed to ignore her in order of of us on dead girls, instead. As the actress who played his daughter says: She explains the drawings of the spirals as Nic just adding more foreshadowing going forward, and the sexual acts as done by a girl who is exposed to what her parents are discussing and dealing with, despite the parents thinking she is insulated from their "adult" problems. Her whole character reflects her parents' relationship and how it crumbles. Either way, I enjoyed the series and thought it to be masterfully done. If others didn't enjoy it as much, well then...I suppose watch something else?
Agreed. The majority of the missing girls went unsolved and/or unreported or covered up. There were only three cases that seemed to reach the light of day. Marie Fontenot (also covered up), Dora Lange (partially solved with the death of the Ledoux brothers) and the Lake Charles case.
I didn't miss the point of the video gripe. It was clearly explained what it was. They said exactly what it was. And the reactions of the men who saw it were appropriate as well, considering they were watching the murder of a little girl. This wasn't the glowing briefcase in Pulp Fiction that you referenced earlier. This was a tangible piece of evidence that was found in Tuttle's possession. Not sure how that is anything other than what it is...? Rust having an epiphany, albeit a seemingly fleeting one, doesn't seem terribly out of character either. He finally broke down an demoted after about 17 years of being a living being devoid of emotion. Opening up to Marty and letting that out, even if briefly, probably made him feel better. Plus...he just got gutted badly and probably on a ton of meds after being in a coma and through surgeries, etc. Or maybe, considering that Marty just got done talking about how the dark seemed to be winning, he wanted to give his only friend hope by giving him that line. Or...he is a prick who wanted to disagree with everyone just to disagree. I know a few people like that...
WADR, you did miss the gripe. Maynard is saying it was a reference to the play or whatever from the King in Yellow that if you saw it make you go mad. He's saying that since the tape was used as that, it should have either sent someone into madness or it should have given us more of a decent into madness feeling otherwise its just an empty ripoff instead of a loving ode to the KiY. I'm not sure how the most bleak and tortured character in the show (possibly of all time) suddenly without significant reason, in the face of even more tragedy, decides to preach some hope......is not out of character. I'm not sure how you're getting there. Funny.
Maybe I can put it another way...When I watch 8mm, I know Nic Cage is watching a snuff film and this is where my expectations of what he is watching ends. He is solving a mystery of who made the tape and piecing the clues together. That isn't what True Detective presents itself as, but what ultimately ends up nearest. Introducing the KiY and Carcosa mythology tells the viewer that there is something much greater going on. The King in Yellow is supposed to reveal truths of the universe that people can't handle and go nuts. It's like when God tells Moses that to look upon him would mean death. Just seeing a fraction of God in the burning bush alters him forever. It's too much. The difference with the Yellow King is that you know you will go crazy but you just HAVE to know what it is It would stand to reason that the characters who partake in or witness any kind of ritual (a play in the original story) about the Yellow King in a place called Carcosa would involve something that brings insanity. Instead, the scarred man was your typical horror movie villain of the last 10 years. It seems to me that the story would be no different had the KiY been called "the shrine" and Carcosa been called "the hole." It would have avoided all of this viral speculation and interest in how the Chambers story will be worked in. We are led to believe some massive conspiracy and ritual killings by people that may have been practicing something very dark, possibly supernatural. I would have enjoyed it more if it played it more straight up and more like an 8mm type that it was. The Yellow King stuff was just misdirection. All in all I still liked the season. But it just feels like my sense of feeling creeped out every time I watched it was a little silly.
I think a few of you are just refusing to allow the story to play out the way it did. In my opinion, having both die at the end would be almost more of a cliched, easy way out type of ending. Purposely pulling at the viewer's heart strings in an effort to drum up some sort of top layer emotion. And I still don't understand the hate for the one-liner from Rust. I mean hell...even Kurt Cobain wrote happy songs from time to time. The dude survived a 17 year ordeal with a knife to the belly for his troubles. I think he is allowed to have a glimpse of optimism for half a second. Also, the Yellow King stuff is being read into a bit too much. The writer/directer gave nods to them as literary devices. It wasn't meant to be an actual person or monster or anything. More of a concept than anything else. The bigger question remains though. IF you hated the entire series. Each and everyone...why watch all of them? Must be something to this time is a flat circle stuff then, eh? Doomed to repeat this over and over again.
Exactly Maynard. For seven wonderful (even if a bit uneven) episodes we were promised Carcosa. We were given Deliverance. Or mayb even, The Hills Have Eyes. The finale was not a bad finale. It just failed to stand up to what came before it.
I would have made Carcosa and the Yellow King much more substantial. Even if there was not enough time to tie up all lose ends you can leave enough to fill in the blanks. Harrelson's character says, when Rust laments not getting all of them, "we got ours." Did they? Rust rented out a storage shed and had a Mafia style tree on the wall. His guy was the whole conspiracy. The whole cult. Who ran the church where Dora Lange attended (and told others about) where she learned about the Yellow King and Carcosa? Who attended it? As brilliant as the creator is at writing, the green ear thing was terribly thin. Yes I keep going back to that. Who gets paint on both ears. Especially one that paints for a living. Yes I'm nitpicking. But that's the expectation I have from how wonderful the rest of the show is. The worst part is, for the creator, he's potentially spoiled next season. Part of the reason for the show's success was the foreshadowing symbols left throughout each episode. They were everywhere. You had people talking about it during the week, discussing theories, meaning, etc. Well the finale showed us, these symbols were just that, symbols. That's cool and all, but these drove the success. Yes there was great acting and writing. But that's not enough to drive a show to success. There are only a few shows where I will search for articles about the show in between episodes. This was one of them. I'm not sure I'll do that anymore, but I'll still watch next season. I did read an article discussing the structure of the show, and Nic P's background as a novelist, and not as a script writer. It discusses Freytag's pyramid and how the climax actually comes earlier than usual. A big reveal. The big reveal in this show was at the end of episode 7, when the sun glistens of Errol's scars. It's not a huge reveal though because there was a lot of discussion of the lawnmower man being the spaghetti monster way back in week 3, which turned out to be true. But it was a reveal nonetheless. That was the climax. After the climax you have events that happen because of the reveal, and work towards the end (Carcosa pursuit). The Resolution, where the two receive fatal blows but don't die even though they didn't receive immediate medical treatment (but I digress), and then Dénouement, the hospital scenes. So that's why the finale seems like such a let down for us, and I get it now, a little better. The climax, as underwhelming as it was, occurred at the end of Ep 7, and Ep 8 was a winding down. This is a departure from traditional TV writing where the finale needs big bangs and explosions, literally and figuratively. True Detective follows the arc of a novel, not a TV show. It doesn't quell my dissatisfaction, but it explains it a little (so it's not so confounding).
Plot alone has very little to do with something reaching the 'art' status. You're too caught-up on the plot - one that was stronger than you're giving it credit for as it is. Characters, as is the case in any good show/movie, are the sources of depth. Plot is a way to get characters to interact or change, and the ones in this show had some damn fascinating relationships from start to finish. I also didn't realize that a story told in three separate times over 17 years, layered with biased narration in the face of curious interrogation, is typical or procedural.
well... I thought it was fantastic, all 8 episodes. I was so freaked out by the two of them at the end going thru the woods, Carcosa, etc.. looking for the killer that I just figured they'd both die. I was shaking my head the whole time. I did not expect them both to live and for the killer to die. It's almost as if they went back and edited the end of the season because it was doing so well in the ratings and they wanted to keep both characters around for a future appearance. I kinda got that sense... the final scenes, in the hospital, and the last one with Marty wearing dark clothing and Rust in lighter clothing (I can't be the only one that noticed that and the symbolism in what they were discussing at the time). But those scenes just seemed to be put together kind of last second... like it was an edit, to me. An alternate ending. But I was so sure they were going to die, that would have explained why they are no longer in the series moving forward... the anthology... but now I'm left to wonder how this season in any way, shape or form, is referenced moving forward? Is there a common story line that will reappear? Or is each season independent of the other? If that is the case... then I do understand people's distaste for how it went down and that they feel cheated to a degree. Doesn't mean I won't watch again next season.
Could not agree more. Well said. There was both satisfaction in getting the killer but the potential conspiracy remained. And, I disagree with Fin D that the ending was cheap. It is often the case that in the deepest darkness - at the moment of the greatest hopelessness to which one sinks - that one finds hope. In fact, it is often through that nihilism that hope is found (that's the story of the cross and resurrection - a narrative that has often appeared in centuries since in various novels and films). One can obviously choose to prefer a continuation of hopelessness and darkness. But, I think there is evidence to the contrary, imho (not the kind given in the show but nevertheless …). For me what I find unsatisfying is programs that just sink into negativity without hope. Many critics seem to think that's somehow superior and feel a sense of superiority in art if that's what happens. I've never found such continual or eternal nihilism satisfying. Nor do I find all of Hollywood's "happily ever after" stories satisfying as they often find meaning in things too cheap. I loved the show. I thought it had exceptional dialog (writing is always the key to every good program and I think most will concur that the writing for this program was excellent). The narrative worked and more than that, the particular details for each character worked. Great acting as well. McConaughey is really coming into his own - not the greatest actor but is maxing out his talent and has gotten better in the past 3-4 years (particularly Mud and DBC). I may have felt a bit more satisfied with it leading to a larger conspiracy that was uncovered. But, I thought this was fine. What is sad for me is that these two characters (Marty and Rust and the two actors) will not be around again. Perhaps they may reunite in a few years. But, they were such excellent characters and I especially loved the interview technique that brought them out. Had really hoped they would change the format and return again. It is going to be difficult to duplicate this. But, it's also a valuable short story. I think our general critical tenor in the present culture of film and TV viewing can just be overly critical these days. This was an entertaining narrative with compelling characters for me. Loved it from the start. And, I would not have continued if it were unsatisfying.
it didn't only reference another work. it took it's "morality" from it, and used the series as almost a "sequel" to it.
I have no problem with the green ear thing. it is simple confirmation bias. Marty/Rust know this about the killer: A) Scars / lower face. B) Large man. C) Possibly worked for the parrish as a handyman. D) Green Ears. So...during their canvasing, they come across a house that was painted around the time of one of the murders. There is his confirmation bias, and he sued that bias to pursue a new lead. (a lead he created in his head, but that ended to be true/bare fruit.)
I think I agree with this. What a lot of people are missing about the show is, imo, that it really was about Rust's worldview: how does someone get to that point, and how do you live with it. The early and late episodes are very much about how and why Rust thinks the way he does, while the middle episodes are more about Marty. Marty, though, is a fascinating character to have opposite Rust because he's kind of living out Rust's ideas even more than Rust is, but he refuses to acknowledge it. I think you could argue that the show is, ultimately, a pretty thorough analysis of the kind of pessimism/nihilism Rust claims to live by. Why does a guy with these beliefs become a detective? Does he care about justice or right/wrong? Why does he seem to value the partnership he has with Marty (i.e. jointly lying about Ledoux)? Is his worldview simply a result of his daughter dying, a way to cope with that loss? Or is it deeper and perhaps more true? Is Rust really a nihilist? Marty is clearly drawn to Rust even though he claims he's full of sh-t; there's something about his shtick that fascinates Marty. What does Rust do when he knows his partner is cheating on his wife? What goes through his mind when Maggie comes over? He talks about choices, judgement, etc. These are extremely interesting things. It's about meaninglessness: what brings a person to that idea, whether they hold onto it as they witness evil, whether they allow themselves to escape that worldview, whether anything can pull them out of it, whether those ideas allow for personal relationships, stuff like that. The show is so intriguing because lots of Rust's soliloquy has truth and dark brilliance to it...but what do you do with that in real life. The last episode wraps this up really well, I think. You have Rust going solo into this cave of senseless killing, madness, and death. It's something that fascinates him, he's talked about for weeks and weeks. And yet there's some horror in his eyes. He hallucinates about that void. I think he even hallucinates that voice. He gets overwhelmed by this realm of evil, one that he's been studying, searching for, and rambling about. And he comes out of it with a near-death experience and ends up being changed. He feels that sense of hope/warmth from his daughter and father, but then is sent back to the 'void' of the real world, an absurd life that he can't escape because it won't let him let go. That's some powerful sh-t. Even though he doesn't want to be, he's kind of back where he started (flat circle), only slightly altered. It's a bleak show with bleakness as the actual subject matter, imo. The finale is also about detective work and knowledge. The frustration of not being able to make sense of such insidious sprawling evil (kind of like No Country for Old Men); some of it slips by and you have to try to be okay with it, regardless of the 'debt' that they feel they had to the case as a whole (kind of a meta-storytelling thing going on there). The frustration of the detective's curse. The frustration of not knowing what's important and what isn't.
Again, I think you guys were expecting way too much from a show that tried hard to stay pretty realistic. I thought Carcosa was very well done. Probably the creepiest/coolest looking setting I've seen in a long time. The Yellow King wasn't disappointing at all either. It wasn't a person, which I kind of assumed, and they certainly leave the door open to expand on the idea of this god or whatever you want to call it that the cult worships.
Am I missing something? Was the maid they interviewed not crazy? Was the woman living in that house not insane?
That's what I was trying to work out in the pages before. Some say she was just senile. The half-sister in the house was abused her whole life What did Rust see at the end? Was something about to be revealed to him or was it just another acid flashback that the writers made sure to remind us of. What about the birds flocking in a spiral in an earlier episode? Maybe it's all there and the writers left in some plausible deniability. IDK Jdang made a good point and maybe the writing was too close to a book than a TV show. From about the first 20 minutes into the first episode I realized that I need to be watching this show with the subtitles on. There are lots of devices thrown around and most of them don't mean a thing. The reason why I call it a mystery box is because we have lots of characters babbling what seemed important but was ultimately nonsense. Reggie Ledoux saw Rust in Carcosa! right....sure he did "What happened" is largely in our imagination. Hart's daughter. I feel bad for anyone that went down that rabbit hole.
That makes zero sense if you guys are still talking about the tape. We know exactly what it was and why it's important is obvious. The old woman was def not talking nonsense either which we both clearly agree on.
Not just the tape. If you think back to it, much of the discussions online and here were talking about things completely made up in our head and not actually onscreen. If you take away the creepy music, the slow panning, the suggestions of the Carcosa, KIY mythology, and the babbling of characters your left with a pretty slow paced, straight-forward 2 man crime drama where the detectives are struggling to work within a system that seems to be working against them I don't know if that was just misdirection or it was was "real"
There's no planet where the tape is a mystery box but whatever. Again, you guys are asking way too much from a show w a pretty realistic approach and an 8hr arc. It's like you built up the answers in your head then got mad when you weren't right or the show didn't go in the direction you hoped. Just take it for what it was.
I said in another post, "reference" wasn't the right word. It was based on those works. Just as 10TIHAY was based on Shrew. What is it, specifically, that you found "deep"?
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20791143,00.html So everything Rust saw, from the birds flocking in a spiral to whatever it was he saw in Carcosa was an acid flashback. Those things happen at the worst times! Not much of what we actually saw can be trusted.
Yeah I'm a bit confused by the letdown some of you had. This was a serial killer hunt crime fic re imagined. I think some are upset because they thought it was something else? Maybe the problem was it was too good for the genre that people expected more. Either way, I loved it. Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
They always made it pretty clear what was a Rust hallucination and what wasn't. The birds definitely was.
I, for one, wasn't hoping for anything supernatural. He sold us a conspiracy, and I just wanted to see more of it. Just a taste. No need to go and arrest every single person in the conspiracy or cult. But there is just so much unanswered. Again, I'm not a guy who needs every gap filled. At the time of Dora Lange there was a cult, as evidenced by the Church she went to, that just burned down. Carcosa was so hard to find, but the Church was out in the open. Why? Someone was teaching her, over time, about Carcosa and the King in Yellow. Does anyone believe it was Errol? Mr. I make flowers with my half sister Childress? Him? The maid and her "spiel" regarding Carcosa when she sees the wood figures? The symbolism regarding Audrey etc. I can look past. Spaghetti man was mentioned just a few times during the show, but Cohle had chased Tuttle endlessly, pointing to a much larger conspiracy. Then they go after spaghetti man who was mostly an afterthought through the series. He was their muscle. Instead of Don Corleone we get Luca Brasi. Significant guy but not the big fish!
Right I mean we don't even know exactly who partook in it. We don't know who was in the video and given the writer's warning about how unreliable Rust is, we can't even for sure say where he got the video from. All we really know is the hillbilly in the woods, some paperwork manipulation and family protecting their own. For all of this secrecy, a lot of low-IQ career criminals seemed to know about it. Just about every one they interviewed knew about it. I'd like to know just WTF Ledoux was talking about. The whole thing is so "deep and dark" with a website called darknessbecomesyou.com and it really was nothing that isn't already all over TV and movies.
Yup. But you just gave me an interesting theory. Perhaps, at the time of Marie Fontenot it was a more well ran, and secretive cult. For some reason, it dispersed or disbanded and at the time of Dora Lange, it was the Ledouxs, Errol and a few other low IQ lackies. That's why Dora Lange was done out in the open like that. A Tuttle or someone else wouldn't have let that happen. That's how that one guy who killed himself in the cell knew about it. Errol et. al. didn't have as much motivation to keep it a secret as the previous generation of cultists.
A) Yes, it's a character-driven show that revolves around a murder mystery. I don't get why people are all caught up in the lack of solving a grand cult case, or the lack of giant twist. It's a show about two guys, and these two guys were far more interesting than any detectives I've ever seen on TV. The dynamic between the two was fascinating. That's what made the show. B) Was it really a typical straight-forward crime drama? Told over 17 years, 3 separate moments within them, narrated (with fuzzy bias) through interviews with former partners who are now at very different places in life, and said interviews aren't actually about what one would think they're about. I mean, its merits don't lie in whether or not it was straight-forward crime drama - I could care less. I just think calling it as such is pretty inaccurate. C) Your comment about taking away the 'babbling of characters' speaks to how little you dug into or thought about their relationship. If you don't like character-driven shows, that's fine. But to suggest that taking away dialogue leaves you with a lame show, I mean...yea, silence and flat characters isn't gonna be all that fun. Taking away the ideology of a major character (ideas that hang over everything that happens) is generally going to make things less intriguing. I get that people like crazy plot, but this show had plenty of juice from its deep characters to sustain it.
The point of why the murder was made public is something that I completely overlooked. Yeah...why? The split would make sense and be a possible explanation
I feel that the show was pretending to be something that it wasn't. I do like characters, lol. Thing is, in case you missed it, I liked the show, but I think it has some faults that are worth pointing out. I like the discussion.
The church had nothing to do with the cult. If anything, Errol went there in order to meet Dora and then take her away. But you saw what that church was all about in the episode where they went to the tent with the preacher.
This. Errol went off the reservation when he staged Dora Lange. I'm sure the higher ups (Tuttle, Childress, etc.) were mighty pissed that he brought attention to them and had to go to great lengths to cover it up. Years later, Rev. Tuttle was done in and then Errol's father met an untimely end (handcuffed to a box spring) and there was no one to stop his public displays, hence the Lake Charles murder. This is not what the cult was about. They performed their sacrifices in secret. Errol took it to another level where he felt he was being called upon to ascend to a higher being.
