Ross warns new owner will move team without renovations

Ever been to SunLife? It is literally right off of the turnpike, has it's own exit.

 

More threats.

"If you're gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

I thought he was going to shut up, nut up, pay for his own renovations and things would be hunky dory. Now this?

 

Then why is he worried about the tax bill?

If its not his then he wont have to pay the taxes.

 

Thats the point. It won't be his. He's not asking to keep the stadium in his ownership, and not pay taxes. He want's the county to take it, in turn, he wouldn't have to pay taxes.

Edit- He wouldn't have to pay property taxes

 

Whats in it for him?

 

Nothing is in it for him other than he doesn't have to pay property taxes, Sun Life is the largest property tax payer in Miami-Dade/Broward County. He's already paying 400 million up front for renovations out of his own pocket, he's bringing thousands of jobs, paying tons on permits, he's bringing Super Bowls, college football championship games to Miami. Why should he continue to pay those taxes? What if the Dolphins were NOT in Miami, how the hell would they manage to cover their expenses/payrolls if they're relying on Sun Life? The city really needs to clean up their act.

 

Whatever tax revenue his store generates is more than the zero SLS will now generate.

 

Just not true. Why in the world do Miami businesses overwhelmingly support the plan? (Hint: its because they'll make more money).

 

We are supposed to believe that Ross is spending 400 million because he is a nice guy and does not stand to profit from it?

 

What's so bad about him profiting? The pendulum doesn't swing that whatever he profits the citizens lose. The Dolphins and the area both win with the revenue brought in. I just don't get why people are hellbent on thinking any deal where Ross profits is a bad deal.

 

Because many have taught themselves to hate anything that has his name attached to it.

 

No, he's spending $400M, because its he has an obligation to the other owners. They are the ones that are profiting from this.

 

There is absolutely no way Stephen Ross profits from these renovations. We are talking about $400MM in renovations alone, which means another $300MM+ in interest on the loan. The increase in revenue to Ross will be minimal. The Super Bowl revenue gets split amongst the owners equally. Ross only keeps 60% of the gate receipts from home games. Its silly to think that this is benefiting him, which is why NFL owners almost never pay for stadiums themselves. The primary beneficiaries from this are the other NFL owners and South Fla. businesses.

 

toxic culture.

 

I used to believe, like most, that Super Bowls significantly increase the revenue of local businesses, but I've since seen several studies that suggest the exact opposite. So, from that angle I don't think Super Bowls are really going to positively impact South Florida much.

With that said, the county officials are being completely stupid. As was mentioned in the article, there are hundreds of ways for them to recoup the lost tax money with ownership of renovated stadium. If this plan falls flat, this is nothing more than politicians being unable to admit they are wrong, all while throwing a tantrum, stomping their feet and closing their eyes.

 

yes, and anyone else that takes that opinion on Ross when it comes to what he's trying to do here.

 

What are these thousands of job being created?

The construction will last 2 years max, and probably involve only a few hundred workers. Then once the work is done those jobs go bye bye.

Even after the renovations, SunLife is only guaranteed to be open 21 days out of the year. I am sure there will be the ocassional concert or monster truck show, but that is maybe 2-3 per year. There won't be any additional jobs created at SunLife because of the renovation that don't already exist.

This is a boondoggle like all other stadium boon doggles.

Sports provide very little return on investment. That's not to say they have no value. It is nice to have them, much like it is nice to have theatres and museums which don't return much on investment but also don't cost anywhere near as much and have other cultural/educational value that sports don't.

Even the Super Bowl, which comes once every 5 years max, amounts to a breakeven deal.

It's offensive that Ross is selling this as some kind of charity that he is offering out of the goodness of his heart. I get why he is doing that, and it may work, but that doesn't make it any less cynical.

In fact, the hotel tax scheme may have been a better deal if you had to pick one. At least that was simply adding a tax that would in theory only have affected tourists. This is taking real money away from the county and Miami Gardens in particular, which has more than a 50% poverty rate.

 

How exactly?

Nobody is eating at restaurants in Miami gardens on game day.

I don't know if you've ever been there, but it is an impoverished town that is not particularly safe.

People go to the games and either tailgate or spend money INSIDE the stadium.

The notion that outside business profit from stadiums has been disproven over and over again.

Here, in Orlando, the Amway Center opened a few years ago with promises that it would revitalize the Church Street area of downtown.

What happened? Well, the construction itself caused many business to fail since the roads were so effed up nobody could get there even if they wanted to, and since the arena opened, Church Street Station, which is across the street remains empty.

Why? Because people go right from work to the games and eat in the arena, or at restaurants closer to their offices or homes where they would have eaten anyway without the new arena

 

This is very misleading. Downtown Orlando has been cleaned up a LOT in the last decade, and its a much, much better place than it used to be. I find it to be a very safe, fun place to be...and much safer than places like Downtown Miami. The stadium is a big part of that because of where it was located, and when the Magic play I see a ton of fans chowing down all over downtown.

 

The mayors seems to think if SLS does not pay taxes they will have rolling blackouts and an insuffcient polise pressence to stop the rioting, and children will go uneducated. Ross thinks the team will be moved if they are forced to pay taxes. LOL both sides are full of crap. Both sides are bluffing.

 

that building is built on the wrong side of the tracks..

It has to be logistically placed in downtown literally to affect downtown and create that vibe you want..not across a major freeway.

Schmoot, you know damn well people from all over the world, celebrities, fans, media, exposure, the region all makes boat loads of money before the game starts..

There's a Reason why officials celebrate when they win the bid.

Can we at least get the idiocy out of the convo that the Super Bowl is not economically good for the region.

If sunlife stays status quo, you don't get anymore, you also are going to miss out on the college superbowls that are coming.

Why do you refuse the common sense of the situation.

 

If this region doesn't support Ross in this venture, and the state stands in the way, then I hope what he says comes true..

 

Downtown Orlando is relatively safe, but that has nothing to do with the Arena.

During construction of the Arena the City actually had to subsidize businesses who literally couldn't operate during the construction and most of them have gone out of business anyway.

The City is now doing this again with the reconstruction of the Citrus Bowl, which is literally used less than 5 times per year AND a new soccer stadium for the MLS team. Complete boondoggles.

And the Paramore area, where this stuff is located is just as bad as Overtown or any of the worst places in Miami

 

Because you're completely wrong.

I'm sorry to say that, because I not only like you very much, but also respect your passion.

Do you honestly think people are going to forget about Miami if we never get a Super Bowl again?

I don't have the numebrs, but do you really think Miami has had less tourism, or there is less awareness of Miami as a destination because of the lack of Super bowls?

We haven't had one in quite awhile and nobody noticed or particularly cared until Ross started agitating.

Do you think people are racing to Indianpolis or Houston to visit?

And the bid committe celebrates because it's their job and also because the City then SPENDS MONEY on all the stuff the NFL requires, meaning all the partners of the bid committe make money, not from tourists but from the City itself that is supposedly seeing a windfall.

Major sporting events aren't without value, but it's relatively small, and nowhere near wortth the expenditures that go with them

Believe me, Sochi, russia is not a major tourist destination now.

 

While I certainly hope Ross and the county are able to come to a resolution on this issue. It should be noted that the vast majority of the population in Miami-Dade County don't care one bit about the Dolphins or if they leave or stay. The Dolphins are really only important to those of us who are their fans. In Miami-Dade County, that is probably less than 10% of the entire population. In fact there are probably far more fans of other teams in the NFL, than the Miami Dolphins.

Since I no longer live in South Florida, I will remain a Dolphin fan no matter if they remain in South Florida or not. As someone who did live in South Florida for over 50 years, I also realize that the county is short of funds for areas which are far more important than an NFL franchise. So hopefully Ross and the county can work out a deal which will eventually end up getting the stadium renovated without impacting the individuals who rely on the tax dollars which would be lost in the deal Ross now has on the table.

As far as the public school system in Miami being over funded, as some have stated on this forum. Perhaps you need to look at the average pay for teachers in Miami-Dade, compared to other large Metro areas around the country. The teachers in Miami-Dade County are vastly underpaid in comparison. Personally I have always felt that teachers are one of the greatest resources we have and that they should all be paid twice what they receive now. So I certainly wouldn't want to see any further reduction in money going to the school system, in Miami-Dade or anywhere else in the country.

 

My wife fist bumps this post as well. Teachers in Orange County aren't paid much better.

 

As a Scotsman I find the American model of franchises to be slightly curious. The nfl turns over billions and they expect cities to pay for the privilege of building them new homes. I live in Dundee, Scotland. A few years back the country was bidding to host the european championship. They wanted our two teams to build a stadium with help from the council. I was very against this. My council tax is for schools, roads, housing etc. Not some cash grab sporting event. Every franchise wants a Jerry-dome. Pay for it themselves then. None of these owners are down to fluff in their pockets.

 

Yet you're siding with the people running this third-world city?

This is just false. The notion that a city profits as much as has been reported by the NFL has been disproven. Cities aren't making back $500MM from a new stadium, but they sure as hell should be making back $5MM/yr.

Do you know how much Maxim pays for the venue of its SB party? $1MM. That is an additional $1MM in revenue for a Miami business, just from one single party. Find me another event that can create that type of additional revenue.

Ask yourself what type of patrons are going to the Amway Center. Then ask yourself what type of patrons are going to the SB, with its average ticket prices well over $1000. Super Bowls are easily generating $100MM in additional revenue for Miami businesses.

 

I am in favor of this new funding plan, but then again, I was in favor of the last one too. In fact, I think the last one, i.e., funding by a tourist tax that would have no real impact on MDC residents, was probably better. But it didn't fly so he's trying again. We can talk about ideals and fairness, etc., but the rules of the game are what they are. Virtually every stadium and stadium renovation gets either public funding of tax breaks or both. Here, not only did Ross have to pay for the stadium and the last round of renovations, but he'll be paying for this round of renovations too. And he is giving the local government the property and stadium too. Yes, that would result in some tax relief for Ross, but it is also a valuable asset. I don't know if there has been any disclosure fo the teams of the proposed lease for the Dolphins to use the stadium, including who would get the parking revenue. If the local government(s) were to get the parking revenue, that alone would pretty much pay for the loss in property tax revenue. Even if not, that property has tremendous value if the team were to ever move.

If the local government doesn't do this deal, when the team is sold there probably is a pretty good chance that it will be moved. Ownership of the stadium and stadium land doesn't do anything to keep the team here. A new owner would be absolutely free to move the team, demolish the stadium and redevelop the property (or sell it to someone else to redevelop it). In fact, that would be a pretty attractive proposition, especially if some other community is going to build you a brand new stadium (which would happen).

I do think sports teams are an important source of civic pride and community bonding. Local governments pay for and support all kinds of cultural and entertainment venues. And major events like the Super Bowl, CF national championship, World Cup, etc. do bring a lot of money to the community. One can argue and say that it's not as much as people claim when they are trying to get the public funding, but one can't credibly argue that it is not a lot of money.

 

You're basing your opinion solely on the time period during which the stadium was constructed, and on nothing else. The fact of the matter is that I spend a fair amount of time in Downtown Orlando, as my wife and I enjoy the nightlife and our favorite restaurant is Ceviche...and I see tons of Magic fans, as well as opposing teams fans (especially the Celtics) frequenting all the restaurants and bars before and after the games. Regardless of what happened during construction, Downtown Orlando definitely gets a huge economic boost as a result of the stadium.

 

The Super Bowl is once every 5 years at the most.

It doesn't justify the costs.

 

It absolutely does justify the costs. We are talking about <$5MM/yr. in costs. They are making that back and then some with a SB. Even the studies which you cite in regards to stadium funding support this.

 

http://shadowofthestadium.blogspot.com/2013/01/orlando-loves-its-downtown-arena.html


http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2013/01/16/4348/orlando-paying-restaurants-to-open-near-magic-arena/

 

Less than $5 million per year isn't worth a Super Bowl every 5 years or so? Huh?

What would be funny, albeit a bit dickish, is if the County did this deal with Ross, had him spend his own money on the renovations, and then went ahead with the tourist tax hike proposed last time to recoup the lost property tax revenue (and a whole lot more).

 

So, what does the city do in the meatime while waiting for the wonderful, altruistic NFL to get aaround to awarding it a Super Bowl 5 years now?

That's $24 million in revenue minimum that the city won't have, plus whatever is spent during the bidding process, which is in the millions.

It's insane that cities continue to fall all over themselves for this nonsense.

 

Stephen Ross has already said he'll delay the tax forgiveness. Problem solved.

Also, do you really think the city isn't pissing away $24MM on things that aren't generating future economic activity?

You realize that this is absolutely nothing like what other cities have done in regards to stadiums? Why is nobody asking the Miami Heat to start paying taxes? What about the hundreds of other businesses subsidized by the Miami government that aren't even bringing SBs?

 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/66544296/

 

The Heat shouldn't be subsidized and whatever these other subsidies are perhaps shouldn't be awarded either.

But you'll forgive me if I'm not all that concerned about making Micky Arison and Stephen Ross, two of the most wealthy men in the country "square" when it comes to finagling out of taxes

 

County couldn't raise the tourist taxes even if it wanted to.

You need state permission which is why the effort failed last year.

The legislature refused to vote on the bill that would have allowed the refferendum

 

You are essentially talking about one or two isolated incidents. More specifically, you're talking about a restaurant that I think was supposed to be inside the arena. I'm not sure how you feel, but personally whenever I go to a sporting event I would much, much, much rather eat and drink outside of the arena instead of inside based on both quality and cost. My wife and I can get an amazing meal at a fantastic restaurant right outside the arena for practically the same amount of money that it costs me to get a few beers and hotdogs at a Dolphins game.

The vast majority of Downtown Orlando restaurants/bars seem to be doing very well at the moment, and their bottom line is boosted by the arena drawing fans to the area.