1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

All sacks from 2013 Season

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolfan40, Mar 19, 2014.

  1. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    You know I don't believe in scapegoats, I've got an "Ireland lover" tattoo courtesy of thephins as proof...

    Though if I had to point a finger I'd point it at the OC and HC not the OL. Pouncey, Jerry, Clabo and Cogs were all proven starters, Martin was the only weak spot and IMO a good staff should be able to work around one weak link. But they didn't. In fact they made the OL look even worse than they were on paper.

    As a HC if you know your OL/protection is bad then you should have every screen/draw/rollout etc known to man in the playbook. Minimize the opponents chances to come after your QB. You damn sure shouldn't throw it 40 times vs teams like Cleveland. So what if your runs get stuffed, you've got one of the leagues best punters and a D that's playing great. Use them!!!

    All year long it was the same thing. Close game, playing with a lead, pass pass pass. Don't tell me the OL sucks and then ask them to carry the offense.
     
  2. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member


    So..where do you fall in that argument?
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You know, in all this talk of how bad Tannehill is avoiding pressure, compared to Wilson and CKap, the numbers don't show that at all.

    Wilson was sacked 44 times in 407 attempts.. That means he was sacked every 9.25 attempts.

    CKap was sacked 39 times in 416 attempts. That means he was sacked every 10.6 attempts.

    Tanny was sacked 58 times in 588 attempts. That means he was sacked every 10.1 attempts.

    That means Tannehill was sacked less per attempt than Wilson. CKap is probably the worst of the three though considering he had by far the best oline of the three.
     
    unifiedtheory and 77FinFan like this.
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Well I feel very confident that Ryan isn't anywhere near their league at escapability talent, so I don't know what to think of your numbers.
     
  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    You could argue that all three are bad. :shifty:
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I don't think assigning blame where it is warranted is the same thing as establishing a scapegoat(s).

    As far as Philbin goes, I've said it numerous times, there's 3 philosophies for HCs:

    1) adapt to your opponent
    2) adapt to your players
    3) Don Shula.

    I think #2's are rare. I think Philbin is in the first category, but for it to work, he has to have the right players. I think that's why we saw us win the games we did against stellar opponents, then lay eggs against the Bills. We didn't have the correct players to implement his plan to beat the Bills.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    CKap reminds me of Randall Cunningham. Relies on his escapability talent, however is still sacked a lot.

    He never stood out to me at being good at avoiding sacks.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    There's nothing to think about the numbers though. They are real. I didn't make them up. I didn't manipulate them. I didn't weight anything funky to come up with a score that supports my thoughts. These are just straight up facts.

    I think its very likely the difference you're seeing is that the other 2 guys were mostly in motion already by play design, because again, they only half a field to read, where as Tanny was usually playing from the pocket and having to see the entire field.
     
  9. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    34,738
    47,800
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    So, I charted every sack in terms of what I could perceive as who was at fault - tried to be as unbiased as possible. I categorized broadly as well as individually. Three broad categories: OL fault; QB fault; Combo (where both the QB was under pressure but could have done better to get out; but the pressure was still there).

    On the OL - 36

    Both to blame - 11

    Tannehill - 11

    In some cases there were so many breakdowns - the entire OL, QB, RBs and Offensive Coordinator had to be blamed. Also - on about 3-4 of the QB "blames" it may well have been a "coverage" sack (which could go on the receivers; but, one can't really tell because we don't know if RT was scared to release or if they were all blanketed). Also, on a couple of the corner blitzes RT got the blame (have to call something and see that); but on one, McKinnie clearly should have seen it coming and he doubled down on the DE with the OG while the CB ran right where he was. Head has to be on a swivel. I felt like McKinnie wanted no part of the CB's speed on that play so just dove down to make it look like he had nothing to do with it, to be honest (he isn't dumb, in that respect).

    On several OL sacks, there were multiple breakdowns (for example 2-3 defenders would collapse on RT at the same time). So, when charting individuals the total number will be higher than the actual number of sacks. Here's what I found (I am just putting the player's number):

    74 - 8
    71 - 7
    77 - 15
    33 - 9
    26 - 1
    78 - 8
    51 - 1 (doesn't include a couple of "both" sacks where the whole team broke down)
    68 - 3
    65 - 2
    80 - 2
    75 - 3

    (Of course, these don't count hurries / hits given up - and there were a lot of those). Keep in mind also that Martin and Cogs did not play the entire season, nor did McKinnie; and neither did Clabo - but man, his sack #s are sick. So, too Daniel Thomas. It seemed almost every time he tried to block someone he got crushed. I can see why there is no interest in McKinnie or Clabo (from anyone in the league!). It still pains me to see Thomas on this team (the very fact that he might get on the field in a real game is infuriating; I understand we don't have others and he's under contract - but come on, a different RB is essential for the passing game alone).

    One other caveat that goes without saying but I will say it anyway - 'just in cases' ;) - keep in mind every year every QB will have some number of sacks for which they are to blame. I don't know what that number is. But, given that, there still are a ton of sacks given up by the OL and by the team as a whole. The ones by RT are where he stepped right into trouble; or scrambled into it.

    Honestly, there really weren't that many where I felt he hung onto the ball too long. I watched the clock on a lot of them. There were some, for sure. A majority of the ones that were his fault, he just used bad instincts in terms of where he moved (he's no Marino or Brady in terms of pocket awareness at this point in his career).
     
  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    No, Ryan is not in their league when it comes to their escapability talent..if you want to believe that he is because of these numbers than that's your opinion my friend.

    Your numbers are sacks, those numbers can be schewed because of the read option, they can be inflated because the sacks count when the players are scrambling outside the pocket..meaning, they have the agility to get outside to make something happen and eventually get sacked behind the Los..at this point Ryan's sacks are inordinately coming from inside the pocket, which in turn would suggest that he isn't as deft as the others.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Sacks are sacks Deej. Scrambling but still getting sacked is no better or worse than getting sacked in the pocket. They are getting sacked at the same rate as Tanny. The difference you're seeing is in playcalling.
     
  12. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

    18,216
    23,521
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    One difference, which I can't fully explain, is that Russell Wilson was pressured virtually the same number of times as Tannehill but was sacked 14 fewer times. CKap was pressured only 37 fewer times but was sacked 21 times less. Both appear to have done a better job than Tannehill of not allowing pressures turn into sacks. Watching the video of those sacks, I see no more than 5-6 that I think Wilson of CKap could have legitimately avoided.

    The fact that Wilson and Ckap were pressured about the same amount despite a lot fewer dropbacks and yet still took their teams as far as they did does at least pose the question as to how much it is really worth it to invest in the OL. I think it is, but when I see that Tannehill's pressure % is actually pretty good it makes me wonder a little. Tannehill had a passer rating of 94.2 when not pressured, which is good but not great, and 46.3 when pressured, which is pretty bad (although almost nobody is actually good when pressured). So it obviously makes sense to try to limit the pressure as much as possible. But even if we got his pressure% down to the third lowest in the NFL, it would only affect less than 5% of his dropbacks (based on 2013 numbers). In other words, if he has the same 661 dropbacks, it would affect only 30-35 plays. That, in itself, is likely to have a pretty insignificant impact on his overall passer rating. Avoiding the sacks is important because it avoids the loss of yardage and 3rd and longs, but it's hard to see how he could have avoided most of those sacks. Maybe more importantly, he needs to get better when under pressure, e.g., get that "when pressured" rating up over 60 or 65 or so.
     
    Fin-Omenal likes this.
  13. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    lol I don't think anyone said that none were on Tannehill, in fact almost everyone so far has said that there were a few that most definitely were on him. but come on man, when the majority of the sacks look as Fin D said, a jail break and a defensive meeting at the QB, to me it's no surprise that he had as many INTs and fumbles as he did. how many of those were blind side or how many were a true duck and cover-hold on for dear life. when he did find room how often did he step right into a collapsing pocket with 2-3 defenders in his face...immediately. absolutely there were sacks on Tannehill, every QB has sacks on them. but not the majority of what happened this year

    give him even just a decent OL and let's see what he does. then critique his play. my only hope is that last year does not set him back and give him permanent happy feet or make him gun shy.
     
  14. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box


    or maybe he's getting hit before he can even set...
     
    NolePhin15 likes this.
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Every time a QB is sacked, the chance for them to turnover the ball and the game dramatically increases. How many games did we lose that had Tannehill fumbling while he was getting sacked?

    Plus, I've been told recently that the difference between a legit pressure and a sack is often luck, so I'm not sure there's anything to the pressure to sacks.
     
  16. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    34,738
    47,800
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    However, those two are big time scramblers. The fact is, RT has speed but is not a good scrambler. If you put Brady in there with our OL play, he would have avoided a number of the sacks but it still would almost surely have been close to 50 sacks, which, quite frankly, is still not adequate. There are times when Brady gets sacked only after he has stood back there looking for half the weekend. I don't care about the Wilson Kapernick comparison. They are great scramblers. Admit that RT is not. But, I don't really want him to be a great scrambler. I want him to have some better instincts on a few passes. But the bottom line is, I want the OL to give him the protection that Brady gets - and then see what the offense can do.

    The other factor is that after you get so many sacks, it's just hard to have poise in the pocket. That's exactly why Al Davis said, "the other team's QB must go down and go down early." Same thing happened to Manning in the SB. And it happens to Brady. RT had it all season - if he were a great scrambler it would be different.
     
  17. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

    18,216
    23,521
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Of course. But if improving the protection to get as good as 3rd in the NFL only avoids pressure on 30-35 plays (and therefore only 7-8 sacks) it's obviously a benefit, but it may not be nearly as much of a benefit as we might think.
     
  18. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    or, the pocket is breaking down quicker than he can adjust for
     
    MAFishFan likes this.
  19. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

    18,216
    23,521
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Brady was pressured just 3 times fewer than Tannehill but was sacked only 40 times, as compared to Tannehill's 58. Eli Manning was pressured 18 times more than Tannehill but sacked 21 fewer times and the Tyree play notwithstanding, Eli is no great scrambler nor does he have any supernatural instinct re: pressure.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I like alen1's comparison of CKap running to Phoebe from Friends when she takes up running.
     
    Dol-Fan Dupree likes this.
  21. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    I think we pretty much agree. I said BEFORE last season that the OL was the unit that we needed to upgrade.
     
    DOLPHAN1 likes this.
  22. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,753
    9,844
    113
    Nov 10, 2010
    IMO the reason RT's pressure to sack ratio is so high is because there was an abnormally high number of plays were multiple defenders are coming free. Its easier for CKap or Wilson to avoid pressure from an edge rusher when there is a pocket to step up into but there are several instances in the video where RT tries to do the same thing but gets crushed by a second defender.
     
    fin13 likes this.
  23. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    Great post Bro.

    You really do have to examine the play call, protection call, route combos, down/distance, score, etc in order to get a good idea of who if anyone was to blame. You also have to watch entire games instead of cutups of individual plays. Not everyone has the time to do it but it's necessary if you want to get an accurate picture of whats happening.

    And the one thing that hasn't been discussed is crediting the other team, that's allowed too. Who's fault is it when Cam Wake blazes around the edge and gets a sack? Cam Wake's. Giving credit to the D is not a bad thing. They have NFL Players too.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  24. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    Its not CKap and Wilson who have the lower sack/pressure ratios, its pretty much the whole league.
     
  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    The last paragraph sims it up imo, it's a combination of bad instincts, a lack of quickness and a lack of lateral agility.

    If he can get better protection than of course he will have more time to anticipate and predict a few things better, maybe even more time to engage his athleticism, however when pressure breaks down, it breaks down, in crucial situations this is gonna happen, and he either improves a lot, or it's going to be a continual problem, especially when playoff temp goes up a notch, bottom line playmaking ability from that position requires the abiltiy to multitask, the instincts, and some reactionary quickness.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  26. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

    14,291
    5,841
    0
    Jan 27, 2010
    It's not the 58 sacks, it's the when and how. I can live w a sack on 3rd and long or when we are trying to get Clay, Wallace or whoever open deep. What kills me is the sacks on 1st and 10, 2nd and 4, in FG range for the tie, ahead late for the win, just trying to get a few yards on a completion to stay on schedule.

    Same goes for throwing picks. Take a shot deep, throw a pick 40 yards down field, fine by me. But a pick 6 on a 5 yd pass like the one vs Buffalo? Can't happen.
     
    Da 'Fins and Fin-Omenal like this.
  27. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

    18,216
    23,521
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    I'd be interested in hearing your view as to which specific sacks (noted by time) on that video you think should have been avoided with better instincts, quickness and lateral agility. I thought I'd see more of those, but I only saw a handful. Of those 58 sacks, I don't think Wilson, CKap, Luck avoid more than 5-6 of them.
     
  28. bran

    bran Senior Member

    4,525
    1,505
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    New Hampshire
    brady actually HAS a pocket to work in.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    touché, but I think the analysis starts at protection breaking down and how one anticipates it.
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I'm on it.
     
  31. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    ugly, very ugly... hope Ryan puts it behind him with no further repercussions..
     
  32. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Looking at raw numbers can confuse things sometimes. How would this look if time before pressure arrived came into play? I'm asking because I don't know the time it took for pressure to reach the other two but if it took less time to reach Tannehill, then that could explain the higher conversion rate of pressure to sacks and it could also help explain their increased ability to escape pressure. I'm also wondering if these numbers take into account the number of persons who bring the pressure. Pressure from one DE rushing in a straight line is easier to avoid than two DE's who took 2 seconds to get there and a DT that the QB had to step up into to avoid the DE's.
     
    Hellion, DOLPHAN1 and Fin D like this.
  33. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,695
    1,237
    113
    May 29, 2009
    Waterloo
    Are you trying to compare the Colts and Seahawks OL to what RT was working with, you are kidding right, after that video.
    There's only one guy left of that line, that should tell you something, and what about the running game both those teams enjoyed, Beast Mode.
    What killed me all season long, was how the Sherman did nothing to compensate for the OL's short comings, he even abandoned the running game when when it was working.
    When I heard that Philbin was willing to quit because of Sherman being fired, I lost all confidence on him.
     
  34. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

    2,000
    826
    113
    Oct 31, 2008
    palm beach county fl
    I can only hope next years sack reel does not go on for almost ten minutes.
     
  35. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,215
    1,896
    113
    Mar 10, 2013
    Buckeye Land
    We are at 51 total starts for Tanny? A number that some get close to in college. I just want to see improvement from him regardless of the line or running game or fabulous new receiver. I want fewer INT's, fewer fumbles, a few more TD's and a better completion percentage.

    I'm still on board w/ Tanny for the future. I reserve the right to rescind this statement at the end of the 2014 season.
     
  36. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    I get that if we are talking under normal circumstances such as Brady not doing well against pressure up the middle. I think here since generally the protection begins to break down at the snap and usually along the entire line that is kind of a skewed view point. I would like to see him behind even a decent line before we start ripping his game. not when the defensive line is playing tag at the QB and the OL is letting them.
     
    Da 'Fins, Fin D and 77FinFan like this.
  37. finsbuck719

    finsbuck719 New Member

    1,459
    506
    0
    Jan 25, 2009
    this is very true. I've never, ever been a fan of Jon Martin (you can find some of my previous posts that bash him from when he was drafted). I hate to dwell on the past, but I thought you could see it coming from a mile away. The guy could not pass protect for his life...even in college. He gets killed against speed rushers. You can even see in a lot of those sacks that were given up by other linemen in that video, that Martin got beat on the same play. Had Tyson Clabo/John Jerry not been equally as bad, Martin's sack number would've been doubled.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  38. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

    2,129
    909
    113
    Mar 29, 2008
    Orlando, FL
    Prediction: Martin doesn't make the 49ers roster.
     
  39. Hellion

    Hellion Crash Club Member

    1,800
    798
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Here and there
    i.e Brady gets pressure at 4.0 seconds and is able to release the ball at 4.5 or move within the pocket to buy more time as compared to Tannehill getting pressure at 2.5 seconds. Pocket break down as compared to no pocket developed.
     
    MAFishFan and DOLPHAN1 like this.
  40. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Looking at the video I would make a number of points.
    1) Tannehill got downed by 2 or 3 rushers a ridiculous number of times. There's one sack from the Tampa game where with a 4 man rush 3 Buccaneers got to Tanny before he had a chance to set for throw.
    2) A lot of the sacks that happened when Tanny did have time to throw happened when the blocker just plain stopped blocking and the defensive player suddenly had a clean and clear path to our QB. I'm not talking about a defensive player fighting through a block and beating our blocker, but the phins had a player in position to block and just plain giving up on the block and allowing an unimpeded pass to Tanny.

    My eyeball assessment is that a Tanny's pressure came from multiple rushers more often than average and from unblocked rushers more often than average. It's a lot easier to avoid a sack from one rusher who is fighting past a blocker than to avoid pressure from multiple rushers or unblocked rushers.
    In other words its just not the number of times he faced pressure but the quality of pressure that the line allowed.
     

Share This Page