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Free agency day!!!post news and stuff, and comments, and excitement.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's not what I said essentially or explicitly.

    I'm saying its ridiculous to say Thomas sucks based on last years' preseason.
     
  2. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The same coaches who thought Martin and Clabo would be good bookend tackles? The same coaches who apparently didn't notice that their left tackle hated coming to work every day?

    I can't "meaningfully" say they're wrong about who can play along the offensive line, but I seriously hope that Philbin et. al. are considering that maybe they should start trying to make chicken salad out of, you know, chicken.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Who said the coaches thought that? We actually know, for a fact, Philbin didn't want Martin but Ireland didn't give him anyone better.
     
  4. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Okay. Forget the first part of my post. Let's go ahead and assume that last year's line was all Ireland's fault. Who drafted Thomas?


    I know Thomas is not Martin, but Philbin and his staff didn't do such a good job of developing (or even paying attention to) Martin. Will things be different with Thomas (or anyone else) because Philbin wanted them? God, I hope so. I hope Thomas develops. I hope Philbin succeeds, only because I don't want to sit through yet another rebuild. However, I know that my hopes are just hopes, based on nothing.


    IMO, Philbin better be re-examining how he does things, because last year, the o-line was really bad. Maybe we can blame Ireland for the personnel, but Philbin (head coach with an o-line background) was in charge of making that work. It failed in spectacular fashion. My chicken salad analogy was a suggestion that maybe this year Philbin needs to bring in some quality ingredients (i.e. veteran players and/or high draft picks), because he did worse than bad with the ingredients he had on hand last year.

    I don't care whose fault it is/was. I want improvement. I'm not counting on player development (particularly on the o-line) to be the thing that gets this team over the hump.
     
  5. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    well we dumped the oline coach and the offensive coordinator. Nabbed a pro bowl LT, a vet guard and brought in a couple different oline coaches. Lazor will be part of the process in fixing the oline too, as his offense depends on it. Philbin, with turner and sherman, was a little too comfortable. These new faces should force him to focus on the tasks at hand and not be fooled by his personal ties with his coaches.

    I like philbin but def think he needed a kick in the *** and i think he got a huge one. His Gm is definitely listening to him. Another year without playoffs probably means his job. I think things are going in the right direction.
     
  6. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    Agree totally. Philbin has to develop as a coach to allow us to succeed. He can't be the barrier to winning. I'm hopeful that this off-season has shown him that his job isn't a lock and we need success. Lazor will hopefully bring some vigour and freshness. We've significantly improved the line (although I'd have preferred valdeer or monroe) so we should be putting RT in a position to win. I like Philbin and I want him to do well. It's this year or gone.
     
  7. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    First, I'm not saying that either. I'm saying that's all we have from last year: not only the pre-season but also that when the OL blew up completely he still could not crack the lineup over a UDFA. If that's what you think is a reliable factor to say, "stop with the free agent stuff and draft and let these guys like Thomas get their shot" well … great if you used that logic at every position you'd have a fun time with high draft choices every year because the odds are against it.

    But, you are saying "rely on him" from the original post - which was player development over signing more free agents or even drafting along the OL. That's what got the whole thing going in the first place.

    Slice it anyway you want it, you pooh-poohed the idea of going after more free agents or even in the draft. I countered by saying, on the OL (and a couple of other spots) there are positions you have to bring in more competitive talent (via a UFA or draft choice). And that based on last year (when Thomas did suck; both in pre-season & in not being able to get PT on a blown up OL) there is no legit reason to rely on the guy to be a bonafide NFL starter this year. He could develop and be great but that's sketchy.

    Which is why - with a ton of cap space left, the prudent thing to do would be to bring in mid-tier vets to compete at the spot; and to draft a young OL talent. If a guy like Thomas really surprises and just comes on next year - great! Cut the vet. I hope he does for the sake of the Dolphins. But there's no reliable track record that says, "historically it's better to rely on a guy like Thomas." In fact, the track record says the odds are not in favor of that. It's a simple point. No one said Thomas was guaranteed to suck this year. Just that what was there, was not enough to instill any confidence he's going to get the job done and therefore there's no need to either draft a guy or bring in a mid-level free agent to compete.

    Do we want the coaches to develop players? Of course, but player development over time vs relying on completely untested players who haven't shown anything to date (except to suck in the past) are two different things.
     
    Brasfin likes this.
  8. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Moreno has been with Manning for 2 seasons. He averaged 3.8 in 2012. So what happened that year if Manning made all the difference?
    In 2013 they upgraded their interior OL by adding a very good run blocking guard in Louis Vasquez, and started playing Manny Ramirez at Center.
     
    Steve-Mo likes this.
  9. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Well, obviously, no one can with any certainty until we see the guy on the field. So why EVER bother with discussing most anything, since we don't see practices or what goes on in meetings, etc.? But you do, and I do, we all do with insufficient information. Otherwise there'd be no discussion board. So, if you are carrying your logic out - we just need to stop discussing any player at all and just have absolute faith in the staff. How's that worked for anyone so far?

    But, the facts we do know are: a) he was horrible last year; b) the coaches did not have enough confidence in him 12-14 games into the season when the starting OL had blown up to even give him a start over a UDFA - who performed well in the circumstance the first game or so but was pretty lame otherwise.

    Sooo … were the coaches saying, "We've got this diamond in the rough on the sideline, he's really developing since the pre-season, and we are in a playoff run, but no, let's keep him hidden and spring his greatness on everyone next year!"

    Yeah, that makes sense. I can only go on what the coaches did and putting Brenner in over Thomas, as well as re-instating Clabo after his early season disaster. It just says that they did not see much in Thomas (would be different if the line were dominant. It wasn't close). And Brenner's play doesn't inspire one either. I can't imagine anyone has demonstrated in January and February that he's starting material next year. Again, not saying one might not become that eventually - but the rationale you (or Fin D) are using to say, "stop with free agency and draft on these items and lets insert the talent we have that's there." Holding onto players for a few years to see if they develop is one thing. Fine. Do that. All for it. Relying on these guys to be starters this year is quite another.
     
  10. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I'm sure the OL improvement was a factor. But that's part of the point - he benefitted from the talent around him - not that he's become some stud RB. And, the 3.8 is only over 8 games and 180 carries. Not a complete track record. But, this year, with Manning having the most prolific passing attack in history - that makes a difference for his stats as both a runner and pass receiver (along with improved run blocking). And, Manning getting to know the personnel and basically making all the calls - superbly enhances Moreno's play. But, the point is not as much just Manning but that Moreno, with a great offense, benefitted from that. And, even then, his stats are not spectacular.

    And, when you look inside his stats - the first year (8 games, 3.8 ypc) with Manning the Denver offense was just getting its feet wet and was not nearly as productive at the start as it was at the finish. Then, last year, Moreno majorly padded his stats with a massive game against New England who ostensibly said, "run on us all-day long, we are not about to let Manning beat us in the air." Other than a couple of games in which the Defenses said, "we're giving the run because of Manning" he is a 12-14 carry guy for 50 yards a game. That Pats game made his hear. But it was basically an unorthodox decision by BB to focus entirely on the pass D.

    Going to go to a team with unproven QB play and not as good a OL - is not very promising. He'd probably be a slight upgrade over what we have but his rushing averages were clearly enhanced from teams having to focus so much on stopping the pass - as the Pats game illustrates. And, his # of catches were as well. If he wants to come in for a year for $1.5 M and prove himself away from Denver, great! I'll take him. :)
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The same person that drafted Pouncey. What's your point?

    Develop? He wanted Martin off the team because he knew Martin could never be anything more than he was. Is it your contention that a good coach can coach ANYONE up to an NFL caliber fo play? If so, you're sorely overestimating the ability of a coach.

    Philbin didn't do anything wrong in regards to the oline. He had the players he had. He tried to get the GM to give him different players, but the GM wouldn't. Its why that GM is no longer here.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sigh.

    I didn't say to "rely on him". I didn't "pooh-pooh any ideas". I didn't say we should rely on Thomas or guys like him. You are essentially having a made up argument in your head.

    And once again, you, Da Fins specifically, do not have nearly enough information about Thomas to determine if he is likely to bust or not.
     
  13. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree on this, the coaches should not have to rely on a second year guy who showed pratically zero ability to start last year. They are going to bring in another veteran OG. If they don't bring in any more free agents, then they'd be forced to draft OL high, essentially drafting for need, which is not a wise strategy IMO.
     
  14. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that it would be foolish to put all your eggs in the Thomas basket, even if he was showing well in practice at the end of last year. But back-up plans and security blankets aren't the kind of guys you sign during the opening days of FA. Those guys are available later and more come available as teams rework their rosters. I don't think the FO is done with the oline, just done with the high profile signings.
     
  15. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What you say makes a lot of sense, and I hope you're right. Kicks in the *** help all of us from time to time. I'm also happy that he brought in a new o-line coach and a new o-coordinator. I'm hoping for the best, but I'm not assuming it. First and foremost, I'm not assuming that Philbin has any "gift" when it comes to developing players, so that's why I'm hoping for as many experienced players as possible for this upcoming season. We'll see what happens.
     
  16. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    I may be late to the party on this, but I am not at all excited about the Patriots potentially bringing on board Kenny Britt.

    I think Britt and LaFell will be break out players and huge improvements for NE at that position. Dangerous.
    .
     
  17. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Britt 6'3" ouch.
     
  18. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How often do people join that team as receivers and contribute immediately vs. how often people join that team as receivers and try a long time to learn the system? I am more worried about their signing the 2 corners than anything they do at WR. They seem to me to be a team where receivers go to die (with the notable exception of Wes Welker and to a lesser extent Brandon Lloyd).

    n.b. I might be wrong here, because all I have are anecdata, but it helps me sleep at night.
     
  19. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    LaFell is no different than the type of players they already have. He's not a very good pass catcher.
     
  20. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not sure about past FA signings they have made...but Id be willing to bet not too many WRs are going to be worse off with Brady throwing them the ball. He made Edelmen look like Welker
     
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  21. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Rocky Raccoon likes this.
  22. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    This guys a great pass blocker, good pass catcher out of the backfield, and a so-so runner up the middle. He's a joe Philbin wet dream.
     
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  23. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    He really is the perfect running back for us. He's not the greatest runner but he's certainly good enough. When you add in his abilities in the passing game he's a pretty solid player and would be a good get.

    Still pretty young too. I'm really hoping we can work out a deal.
     
  24. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    I think Moreno is Lazor dream. Catch the ball that well, runs in space well and can pass block. Seriously I think he could get a 3 year deal here and do quite well. I would love to sign him. I think he fits what we want back there.
     
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  25. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think hes a good fit...especially if they want to wait on drafting a RB until the later rounds. Unfortunately it would probably end my dreams of Hill or Seastrunk in the backfield next year.

    Alas, if he comes cheap and fills a need its hard to argue with.
     
  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Regardless of Moreno, I don't think Seastrunk is Philbin's kind of RB. He is totally raw as a pass catcher, and likely the same way too when it comes to pass protection. Hill has off the field issues that may not endear him to St Joe. either for that matter.
     
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  27. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    My problem with Moreno is he's average-to-below average in short yardage situations and not great at breaking tackles. He's better than Miller and Thomas... barely

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
     
  28. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I cant disagree with either of these...but I dont think Phillibin would be right. With Hill they would have to do their due diligence of course. As for Seastrunk, he may be raw in some aspects but he is probably the best back in this draft with the ball in his hands...especially in space.
     
  29. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Slightly better runner, but much, much better pass catcher and can help to give Tanenhill more time.
    He is smart, knows where to be, and blocks like a man.

    Like mentioned, Moreno is still young and does not have a lot of wear on the tires.
     
  30. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    so what we have the d-train for that :shifty:
     
  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    True, but for an NFL back who plays much it seems he needs to be 1/3 runner, 1/3 receiver, 1/3 pass protector.
     
  32. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I think there's about an 80% chance that Hill is a total bust. Cecil Collins #2.
     
  33. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I think the back can be less of a receiver in certain schemes or if he is superior in pass protection.

    Pretty much agree though
     
  34. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Moreno is more then just barely better than Thomas, I think he still has the potential to be a stud NFL back, Thomas don't.
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Hyde is the better back on the field.
     
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  36. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Totally agree. He's easily the best back in the draft, IMO.
     
  37. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    What's interesting is if you ask 10 people to rank their top 5 backs in the upcoming draft, you will get 10 different answers. And no one is necessarily right or wrong.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    over mason?
     
  39. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Yeah, I'm not sold on him based on running through HUGE holes in college, and he seems pretty one dimensonal. I don't watch much SEC football though, so I've seen a lot more of Hyde.
     
  40. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hyde reported to have great hands. I think he can be a 3 down back. Having said that, I would love to have Moreno for the right price and open up our draft options even more.
     

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