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How should we attack this draft..Sexy vrs unsexy?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    We need franchise playmakers...
    We need to be...


    [​IMG]
     
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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    During the game he lined up there on like half a dozen snaps.

    Wow. I'm blown away.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And Zack Martin played 49 of 51 games at left tackle. Thanks for reinforcing my point.
     
  4. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    mike iupati, louis vasquez, joe thomas, tyron smith, joe staley all had reps over 26 and made the probowl this year. i want the strongest oline possible for our running game. of course technique and quickness play a part, but my i dont want a quick olineman who is weak, especially on the right side. i want a power running game.
     
  5. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    and 2 games at RT as an underclassmen. It was the same with Logan Mankins though, as I recall. Only difference was he wasn't projected to go late in the 1st and most folks were pretty surprised when the Pats took him there.
     
  6. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The scouts will lend probably more credence to how he did there during the practices. Do you think we should not take him in the 1st if we project him to guard initially?
     
  7. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That's all well and good, though for any OL, the bench is not one of the most predictive measurements of success. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2014-Combine-viewing-guide.html
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Speaking of sexy versus unsexy, you go back to a JaWuan James and I think that's kind of the epitome of unsexy.

    He doesn't give you many of the bells and whistles that get your juices flowing as far as whipping out into space and making some block 30 yards down field, etc. I think Billy Turner is better for that stuff.

    What James gives you consistently is just this core competence in the core responsibilities of an NFL right tackle. Like I said he controlled Dee Ford when they played. He made Michael Sam look like a UDFA. Seriously when a team criticizes Michael Sam as a prospect I think the first tape they'll put on has to be him against JaWuan James getting manhandled. James also controlled Florida's Dante Fowler on the snaps they faced one another. The guy just has this power and consistency to him.

    I saw him get beat for a pressure one time against Florida when Ronald Powell put on a pretty suave inside spin move. I saw him get beat once in the Missouri game when Markus Golden (a player I think has a brighter NFL future than Michael Sam) got through James' hands and under his pads, was able to sack the quarterback.

    It happens. He can be beat once in a blue moon. But so can NFL right tackles. Most often when I see him make a mistake it's just a mental miscue, a line adjustment that needed to be made but wasn't. Not even necessarily an adjustment he should have made but one several of them should have made. I tend not to have a high regard for the coaching at Tennessee.

    But when he blocks down on the defensive tackle, he gets MOVEMENT on those big 300+ pounders. He's not just sealing them like so many other offensive tackles out there. When he's power blocking you, you feel it. This is a big man at 6'6" and 311 lbs, and he's got that country strength. And he's got pretty decent abilities at the next level. He certainly owned Kentrell Brothers when he got out to the second level against Mizzou.
     
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  9. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    CK, did you not just state on twitter the other day that most guys who played Guard in College don't make it and lots of tackles play Guard in the NFL?? I understand what your saying about risk and that is very true. There have been tons of cant miss prospects who missed so risk is a dangerous thing to try and account for with these young guys. We don't know which guy want to be great or guys who say the right things and say they want to be great. I'm hoping we take players that help the team now and long term. If that's an all-pro guard then lets do it. If Cooks is the answer, perfect. I don't mind putting resources into any position as long as the players we pick help us win games.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's exactly what I'm saying. You've never seen him play left guard in games and so you can't afford to take the risk in the mid-1st round. It's bad enough taking a guard in the mid-1st as it is. The value of taking a guard mid-1st is already questionable. Now you're taking one you've never even seen play guard???
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Absolutely about 2/3rd of the snaps taken at guard were by college tackles. However you have to keep in mind what you're saying. That does not in any way imply that on an individual basis a college tackle moving inside to guard and playing well is a sure thing. That's a logical fallacy.

    This is a more extreme example of a logical fallacy, but it would be like saying 90 percent of the NBA is black and therefore if you're born black you are a shoe-in to play in the NBA.
     
  12. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How about sexy and unsexy? Eric Ebron (sexy) in round 1 gives us my #1 rated TE and then Antonio Richardson in round 2 (unsexy) gives us my top ranked and my most nfl ready RT.
     
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  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    God I hate Antonio Richardson. The fact that I just watched the Missouri-Tennessee game again about 10 minutes ago only reinforces that 10x.
     
  14. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    Don't put words in my mouth. I still didn't say I absolutely want Martin as our G, I actually think I may prefer the kid from UCLA.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If you weren't implying that I was contradicting myself, why did you bring it up?
     
  16. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's a myth. Anyone who has ever lifted weights knows that long arms is a huge disadvantage on the bench because the weight needs to travel farther. I'd love to get arm length measurements on the players you listed vs the players MC listed....
     
  17. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Was he playing LT or RT there?
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He's been playing left tackle the whole time to my knowledge. I don't know when the last time he played right tackle was, if ever.
     
  19. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly. He's not a LT. He's a RT. I'd hate him too as anything more then an emergency LT. Draft him in Rd 2 and RT is settled for a decade imo. He's a more agile version of Kareem McKenzie in his prime. That would make him a multiple time pro bowler and a dominant run blocking RT
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    We're not going to see eye to eye on this.

    In short I don't believe a multiple pro bowl dominant right tackle plays left tackle in college and looks as poor as Tiny Richardson has looked. College is a lesser stage facing lesser opponents. The guys he faces at right tackle in the NFL will be better than the guys he faced at left tackle in college.

    And I don't believe the constant stream of penalties he drew in college had anything to do with playing left versus right either.

    I'm not saying you can't roll the dice on him at some point and try him out at right tackle. But you don't want to spend a lot on that dice roll. And I can't help but think that if anyone is rating Tiny Richardson above his teammate JaWuan James at right tackle then they're doing it wrong.
     
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  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Your strange evaluation methods aside, I still say your track record for who you have wanted to draft over the past four years or so puts most GMs to shame. I'd gladly go with whoever you wanted in this draft.

    No clue how you do it, but it works.
     
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  22. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    What I want is to continue plugging some holes with reasonably priced FAs, so that we don't have to answer this question and can enter the draft prepared to take BPA, or any special player that falls to us. Sign Wharton to a 2 yr deal and some of the pressure to go OL is diminished. Yeah, we'll probably still want to draft one in the first 3 rounds, but the urgency is lessened. Sign MJD or Moreno to a 1-2 yr deal and lessen the need to reach for a RB. Re-sign Clemons to another 1 yr deal to solidify the safety position. And sign Vincent Rey to compete at MLB.

    Then go into the draft prepared to take the BPA. For me, the best case scenario is that Aaron Donald falls to 19. DT is not a current "need" but I think he's the most impactful and dynamic player in the draft. That kind of penetration and pressure up the middle is priceless. Most mocks say it won't happen and it may not, but there are scheme fit and size issues that could cause him to fall. Not to mention that the teams picking in front of us are generally bad teams that have a bunch of other needs to fill too. He's not a fit for 3-4 teams so that pretty much rules out a few teams. Other teams need to get their QB and that rules out a few others. Some teams that may like him may simply feel that they are already set, or devoted enough resources to DT. Etc. If not Donald, there are a bunch of other guys who would be very interesting at 19 -- Cooks, Ebron, Martin, Mosley, Hageman, Shazier, etc.

    None of the FA moves I've mentioned preclude drafting someone at that same position, even in the first round, let along the 2nd or 3rd. I'd love to be in position to take Su'a-Filo I'd love to get Seastrunk in the 3rd, but would be fine taking him in the 2nd if he represented BPA. There are a few other backs I'd be good with in the 3rd. From a ST and X-factor standpoint, I'd love to get Dri Archer or De'Anthony Thomas in the later rounds, but would be good with them as early as the 4th depending on the vision for them. They are guys who are very dangerous with the ball and some space, but you have to have a vision for how to use them. A guy like AC Leonard has very interesting potential in the later rounds.
     
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  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    My guess is if we do take him in the 1st, it is because they see him as the starting RT and backup LT. Not saying I'd agree, but just how I think they'll see it.
     
  24. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Richardson played LT, so why is he more NFL ready at RT than his teammate James who did play there?
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I have to admit I'm very torn on this.

    Do I ultimately believe Dion Jordan has what it takes mentally to play SLB on base downs? I'm not sure I do.

    But everything else I agree with here. Cam Wake WILL need to start to be managed pretty soon, to keep him fresh...getting him some rotation in base packages. It's hard to do that now when he's playing so well but if you want him playing into his mid-30's you have to start thinking about it.

    I'm on board with Kony Ealy though. I still needed to watch more tape of him but I've done that and I'm on board. Exactly as you say the guy can reduce to the interior on base downs and be a demon in pass rush.

    Truthfully you wonder if the better strategy is just to trade Jordan out for Ealy because like I said in this scenario I'm not sure we're really getting anything out of Jordan in base packages.

    Is Kony Ealy a poor man's Zeke Ansah? Or is he a more experienced, polished, and therefore a rich man's Zeke Ansah? I'm inclined toward the latter.
     
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  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm inclined to agree. I think if they take him it's exactly as Steve Ross said. They're filling the RT position.
     
  27. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    They'll never have it at the combine, but the best lift to gauge an OL by, if there is one, is the power clean.
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I have to retract something.

    Morgan Moses would not be a projection to take at right tackle. I had forgotten about this but he played right tackle at Virginia while Oday Aboushi played left tackle, until this year. He's logged multiple years at right tackle and only one year of left tackle.

    I'm watching tape of him at right tackle right now and he looks as monstrous and competent as ever he did at left tackle, if not more so. That's really what I would need to see is whether that same monstrous frame and power would apply to the right side as the left or if he'd look somehow more awkward and less powerful there. Safe to say he passes the test.

    He'd probably be the safest right tackle you could take, even safer than JaWuan James.
     
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  29. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    while benching, you can offset arm length by speading out your hands. either you're strong in the upper body or you're not. if you make lifting weights a priority it will show. bench press tells me how well you can deal with a defensive lineman when they get in close. do you have enough upper body strength to push them off and control them or are you likely to get beat. of course leverage plays a role, but there is no combine measurement to test leverage other than one on one positional drills. the 3 linemen i have in mind have been said by rob rang to have excellent leverage (zack martin, brandon thomas, and the c/g from utah state...cant think of his name off the top of my head). all three also have nice bench rep numbers.
     
  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Spreading out your hands does reduce the amount of strength one has to push.

    Leverage is more important than bench press. If the lineman gets in close if you have the right hand placement, with the correct amount of food speed, unless the person is a complete wuss, they have the person blocked.

    Plus leg strength is more important than bench when it comes to run blocking as well, especially with leverage.

    I do agree that bench press is highly over valued when discussing offense and defensive linemen. it is a small piece of the puzzle.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think Morgan Moses is a better possibility at #19 than people think.

    He played at UVA under Bill Lazor for three years 2010 to 2012.

    My personal opinion is that Dennis Hickey's OLs tend to be big monsters. His guards tend to look like tackles. His right tackles (thinking of Jeremy Trueblood and Demar Dotson) tend to be ogres. Jeremy Trueblood was 6'8" and 316 lbs. Demar Dotson was 6'9" and 306 lbs.

    Well, Morgan Moses fits. He is a little over 6'6" and 311-325 lbs (325 lbs at Senior Bowl, 314 lbs at Combine, 311 lbs at Pro Day), with 35 inch arms and a wingspan just an eighth below 84 inches (7 feet). His wingspan is bigger than NBA bigs like Kevin Love and Blake Griffin.

    Moses did not have a strong Combine but he repeated the 40 at his pro day and ran somewhere between between 4.9 and 5.06 which is incredible. He pulled a hamstring during the run, too.

    And Miami had dinner with his linemate Luke Bowanko, who had the following to say about Moses:

    If I were Bill Lazor and I knew Miami was thinking about taking a guy I coached for three years at Virginia, I might also like to have dinner with a trusted teammate who can tell me what Moses was doing differently and how his work habits developed while I was gone. So was Lazor at the dinner with Bowanko or not? Considering Lazor also coached Bowanko for three years I imagine he probably was.

    They could just be interested in Luke Bowanko...but he's a UDFA type of no special merit on film. He's very tall. And that's about it. Perhaps Lazor has some secret respect for Bowanko and he pounded the table so hard that he got Dennis Hickey to agree to have dinner with this kid despite his being a UDFA type of player.

    But I doubt that. I know something of Dennis Hickey's questioning tendencies from people I've talked to in Tampa. He's...thorough. I think you can bet Morgan Moses came up at that dinner.
     
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  32. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was alluding this in the draft forum that I think Morgan Moses would fit the Dolphins scheme due to his size/frame, technique and comfort with Lazor and his offense.

    But I think Moses is someone who I would value in the late first round to the 50th pick. I think if you trade down from 19 there's value there. A trade down partner is difficult to find though. I prefer Zack Martin at 19. If Martin was 1 inch taller and with 1 inch longer arms he would be perfect at tackle. He makes all that up with great feet and technique though so I am comfortable with him at RT on day one or even a future LT. Martin has only played LT, true, so it's a personal projection which is why the draft is difficult to gauge.

    PS I think the draft forum needs to be moved to under the Miami Dolphins Discussion forum (above salary cap forum). Not a lot of people look down the pages past the NFL forum section. People here only discuss the draft that relates to the Dolphins anyway so I don't see why not.
     
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  33. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    5 OL and G were drafted with the first 11 picks last year. Unless the Cowboys take a DT, I don't think Zack Martin will be on the board. I think 4 OL will come off the board before our pick at 19, Greg Robinson, Mathews, Lewan (Giants) and Zack Martin (Cowboys). So BPA may be TE Ebron or LB's Barr and Mosley. Brandon Cooks projects as a good slot WR option for Tannehill's style of passing game but not sure if Binns will be back from his injury. Tre Mason could also contribute but that would mean the Miller, Thomas and Gillislee picks were somewhat wasted. The draft board is just not shaping up to favor our needs on offense in the early rounds.
     
  34. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well...I have heard this is potentially the deepest draft ever at WR. Id love to see if we can get a future number 1 at a value round. Same goes with the guard positions. I do think you go with the best player available in the first round. Ebron would be my choice if he were there. Also...are there players we will be looking at having to pay soon...that could be replaced in the draft.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
  35. 13Machine8385

    13Machine8385 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would take choice A ..............and it's not close. We could go on and on forever doing these mediocre drafts that fill holes and take trench players early. We have 2 pro bowl players right now on the OL and should be able to build around that in FA and what we have now. Lets blow this draft up by overloading on skill players early. Take a flyer on a couple of OL that are good value later if still needed.

    This team needs explosive/dominant playmakers. Instant playoff team if we do this IMO. We almost were last season with no LT and mostly mediocre skill players.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ill try to be more clear, I'm hypothetically presenting a scenario where if Zack Martin is there at 19, ( under the assumption that he is the best Olineman on the board, I do have him better than J James) what philosophy would you like to go with to build your team, do you want a solid plug and play, talented Olineman, who can line up and fill your biggest hole, or do you tape the hole and go with the playmaker?

    I guess it's a classic tranches vrs playmakers debate..which way should we would attack the league while knowing what are strengths and weaknesses are?
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't think we missed the playoffs because we lack play makers. We missed the playoffs because we lacked a serviceable oline. I legitimately don't see a valid argument against that.

    Finish building the base once and for all. Get to the playoffs. Then next year start loading the playmakers to compete for the division. There is no "playmaker" in this draft that will take us from 8-8 to the SB this year. There are however, players to take us from 8-8 and our worst oline ever to the playoffs.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that the way to build is to try and find the player that will help make other people jobs easier.. I call it the Revis effect..

    Ok, so because you haven't seen Martin play guard or right tackle your not willing to put him up against other players on your board, you just will take the best skill player offense/defense and try to find a real guard or right tackle later?
     
  39. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I seriously can't watch anymore of tiny..big dude, tiny game.
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think we missed the playoffs due to lack of scoring.

    Also no "lineman" is going to make Miami into the playoffs.
     

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