Mike Wallace On The Trade Block!!!

There's no way in hell. He had more than one multiple drop game, the fact that he doesn't show up when you put it on just AFC suggests there's a pretty serious error there.

 

No one in the league is getting 4-5 deep throws a game. Wallace got the most in his career this year, and one of the most in the league this year.

The QB rating was already 59.6 when our guys threw at him last year, forcing the ball to him deep more isn't going to make that better. Hell, he's closer to it being better rating-wise that the ball be incomplete than he is to a good rating.

 

Exactly. If guys like Marshall and Wallace don't fit the "system" then change the friggin system.

Systems don't win games, players do. Putting players in position to succeed is the name of the game for NFL coaches. I like Philbin and I think he can be a good coach but he needs to get over the idea that he's ever going to have 53 players that fit exactly what he wants bc it's never going to happen.

 

"Some things people see with their eyes, others...see with their heart"

 

Maybe I didn't explain properly. I'm not talking just streak routes. I'm talking streaks, posts, deep crossers and deep comebacks.

When you can't pass pro DBs aren't worried about 20 yard comebacks, they know the QB won't have time to complete it. Safeties see a 3-5 step drop and know that the takeoff isn't something the really need to worry about.

Thats why the OL is so important. If you can make the safeties worry about 5-6-8 yard runs then suddenly the CBs don't have as much help on the outside. And if you can control the pass rush you give a guy like MW time to run a multitude of routes that aren't an option behind a crappy pass pro. In 2013 MW was running takeoffs/clear outs and stop routes bc that's all the OL could consistently protect for. Now, if that doesn't change then yeah we should trade him bc he's a sunk cost doing that. But if we can add those other routes and give him time to run the posts, digs, comebacks, double moves, etc then he can be major force.

You're one of the most astute football guys around here so I know I'm not telling you anything up don't already know.

 

That is major difference on Wallace. Your link has 141 targets and 3 drops. PFF has 137 targets and 11 drops. I am wondering if many other players are so different between the two sites. Maybe check it later when I've more time.

 

Yes, it's true, you're absolutely right.

 

I've noticed the same the past couple of years with Stats. I've watched guys have multiple drop games and not show up with one on that site. They used to be my go-to for drop stats but they just haven't been reflecting reality IMO.

 

http://www.thefinsiders.com/blog/2013/wallace-opens-up-about-2013-season

 

He's right on all counts.

Besides maybe the 14+ TDs left on the field, bit of an exaggeration.

 

Yes. Unless he meant 14+ as a team in some weird reference to the passing game in general. Biggest issues most people had with him was his passiveness in attacking the ball, dropping a couple of game winners/changers, his poor routes, his inability to comeback to the ball and help Tannehill out, and his aloofness on the sideline. You just didn't see him appearing to try to resolve the issues on the sidelines.

He was often shown sitting or standing alone and he never warmed up with Tannehill and Hartline before games. That's not conducive to building chemistry with your QB...

 

I wouldn't go as far to say all that, but basically they both need to be up each others arse all offseason.

 

I was fully in favor of Greg Jennings last year. James Jones twice. Jennings because I like guys who get open deep based on route running combined with speed. Wallace and his contract come off as a middle finger to Philbin.

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So those comments by Philbin of his watching every one of Wallace's snaps in the months before signing him and his positive comments about Wallace, and his being totally on board with signing him, were either just his covering for Ireland and/or Ross demanding the team go all out to sign him, or else Philbin did watch but didn't know what he was seeing because you don't hold Wallace in the same regard that Philbin does?

 

We know Philbin doesn't throw anyone under the bus to the media.

Again, the only two big FA receivers that year were Wallace & Jennings. Its not crazy to think Philbin preferred Jennings and Ireland preferred Wallace and Ireland went with what Ireland wanted...just like he did with Cogs & Martin.

I'm fairly certain most coaches in most of their PCs or dealings with the media are all that honest about negative stuff.

 

No idea. I do remember, during the great Chris Chambers debates, that Stats LLC counts drops as those that could have been caught with normal effort, not just those that hit his hands and were dropped. If someone would put up all passes that hit Wallace's hands we can judge for ourselves. Perhaps they had a Mike Wallace fan who felt every pass that hit Wallace's hands required great effort to get there ...

But it would be fun to see every pass that hit his hands.

 

I don't think that's logical to assume at all.

It's like assuming Philbin wanted Flynn badly, but Ireland nixed it and drafted a QB Philbin didn't want in Tannehill. It's all too much guesswork.

 

I would love to see every TARGET, then we could all pick them apart according to our agenda. Like earlier.

 

I'm not big on who is connected and who isn't, but apparently this guy out of Wisconsin is somewhat clued in, and he said, before FA last year, it was unlikely we were going after Jennings

https://twitter.com/BobMcGinn/status/306026016919392256

 

No it isn't.

We know for a fact Philbin wanted Martin replaced and Cogs gone and Ireland refused. That all happened last offseason.

Its not illogical at all to think out of two receivers to choose from a GM how coveted speed wanted Wallace and a coach who prefers route running ability preferred Jennings, and the GM went with his guy.

I'm not saying that's how it went down, I'm saying its certainly possible.

 

Well that's different. We're talking about drops specifically.

 

Clay doesn't make $7million.


- you're welcome

 

Where have you and your fantastic one liners been hiding?

 

poty

 

It's out there, he had no where near 11 drops though. I can tell you that off memory.

 

Definitely possible. But if McGinn is to believed Philbin just wasn't a fan of Jennings. I'm starting to believe Philbin didn't think anyone except Rodgers is worth a damn (hence we haven't signed any).

 

I think the huge discrepancy between PFF and Stats LLC is how they define drops. Stats LLC defines drops as those that require normal effort but aren't caught. Acrobatic effort to get your hands on the ball but no catch? That's not a drop.

PFF defines drops as those that were catchable. That means, acrobatic flip to get your hands on the ball but don't make the catch? Drop.

They use the infamous Welker "drop" in the Super Bowl a couple years ago as an example of a "drop" that isn't as bad as other boneheaded drops, but still a drop nonetheless. Stats LLC would not consider that a dropped pass because it was overthrown and required great effort to just get your hands on it. Think about it, if you don't put your hands up, or mistime the jump, the ball sails over your head. No drop because you didn't get your hands on it. But you make a crazy effort to get to it, but don't pull it in, and now it's a "drop."

I see merit to both approaches. But that's where the discrepancy comes from. Stats LLC probably doesn't label that Welker drop as a "dropped pass."

 

What qualifies as a drop? I can see a ball being catchable, not caught, but maybe not be considered a drop. Still an issue in my mind.

 

Depends on whom you ask.

I think PFF's version is more consistent, but less reflective of the WR and a combo of QB and WR (QB not throwing it on the money, WR making effort to catch but doesn't)

 

I am of the opinion that if Philbin had pounded the table for Jennings that he'd be a Dolphin today and not Wallace. To say otherwise just amounts to nothing more than speculation IMO.

 

He pounded the table for martin to be replaced and Cogs to be gone, those things never happened.

Of course its speculation never pretended it wasn't. The point was its not crazy or even unlikely.

 

Absolutely. People tend to pick and choose when/who/why a situation happened.

As bad as Ireland may have been, it's not logical too assume he ignored about the best opinion he could possibly get about Jennings and Flynn.

Maybe Mike wasn't the greatest idea for a QB who is still developing, but it's year 3 Gordon Ryan and his second with Wallace. It's fair for us all to expect big things going forward.

 

Its very logical. In fact, most things we know point towards it. Ireland had already stopped listening to Philbin. Ireland coveted speed.

 

To be fair to Ireland, and I'm never fair to Ireland, Philbin pounded the table for Martin in the first place and then a year later changed his mind. Welp, they invested a 2nd rounder for him because Philbin liked him. So tough nookies you gotta try him for another year.

Cogs wasn't a skills issue but off the field. He wasn't overruled because Ireland thought someone else was better. It was May 2012. Draft and FA mostly over. Did Philbin have a plan to move on without Cogs? Was Philbin pounding the table to move Cogs in the 2013 offseason?

 

Stopped listening? That would imply he listened initially, they brought in Wallace over Jennings about his 3rd month on the job. I just don't see Joe endorsing Jennings who was cheaper and knew the system, but Jeff said NOPE! Wallace is fast...deal with it.

 

Actually Joe had already been here a year. He had been here a few months when he wanted Cogs gone though, so you have a point there. If evidence Ireland "stopped" listening to Philbin is Cognito's charity golf scandal, than Ireland never listened to him.

 

More likely that Miami offered more guaranteed while Minnesota offered a higher overall contract with being mostly on the back end.

 

Huh?

 

I wasn't part of the Club when this info came out, so I don't honestly know anything about it, but I'm skeptical about it. And even if true, If your coach is telling you the guy he wanted sucks AFTER a whole year of seeing him play, get him another player. Its not about ego. Its about winning. Either way, it does indicate Ireland wasn't listening Philbin.

Doesn't matter. Its just another example of Philbin wanting something and Ireland not doing it. Again, people are picturing that I'm saying Philbin was 100% for Jennings and 100% against Wallace. Philbin and his staff had only two choices, Wallace or Jennings. Its possible they gave Jennings something like a 90 and Wallace something like a 75. At that point, its not some huge act of defiance by Ireland to go with Wallace when you factor in age and Ireland's love of speed. The point being, when the decision was made, Ireland had already went against what Philbin wanted a few times that we know of, so its certainly likely he did it again.