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Greg Jennings vrs Mike Wallace..a year later.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, May 1, 2014.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He fought for the ball 2 times in 142 attempts. You didn't prove **** other than he doesn't fight for the ball...and when he does....he actually plays well.

    I never said there was a catch in stride. Clearly the problem here is you.
     
  2. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Lololollol.

    You claimed he didn't catch a pass unless it was "in his breadbasket"

    You cant show me a play that hits him in the breadbasket and I gave you one example of him making plays on the ball (there are more) what else do you want? You lost.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It was obviously a way of saying he didn't fight for the ball. So that's my fault, I got to keep reminding myself I'm not having a discussion with a rational adult.
     
  4. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Or you make stupid comments then parlay it into an argument you never intended to make.

    You fail.

    Again.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
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  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    do both of you know that both of you are smart?
     
  6. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Saying Wallace doesn't fight for the ball is like saying Hartline doesn't break tackles, DUH friggin DUH.

    Its not Wallace or Tannehill. It's the OL and overall design of the offense. Let's get a decent run game and some pass pro so that stopping Wallace deep isn't the the primary concern of the defense, then grab your popcorn.
     
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  7. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Ah let em battle it out. It's fun to watch.
     
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  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yeah, yeah, tell us again how the only time Wallace fought for the ball it was 125 yard day on 5 catches but all those other games he didn't it was Tannehill's fault. It makes all the sense. no really.
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Breaking tackles is a skill. Fighting for the ball is effort. Anyone can display effort.
     
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  10. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I disagree. I'd say fighting for extra yards is every but as much about effort. Hartline routinely falls down with only a token effort at breaking tackles or picking up additional yardage. Its not a bad idea for him, see the Chargers game last year. It's simply not his game. And it's not Wallace's game to throttle down from warp speed, gather himself and leap over bigger/taller DBS to make catches 40 yds down field.
     
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  11. TotoreMexico

    TotoreMexico Your retarded

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    A hell of a job I must say...

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You have to be strong or illusive to break tackles. Wallace is not at full speed every time he needs to fight for the ball. It simply takes effort to jump up for the ball or extend your arms. Hell, even if you don't catch anymore then normal at least try. Hartline doesn't have effort problems. I don't respect players that don't display that kind of effort.
     
  13. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Great gif. Where are the others? I"ll wait...
     
  14. TotoreMexico

    TotoreMexico Your retarded

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    Ask and you shall receive

    [​IMG]

    Want more?
     
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  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    LOL. Oops.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If I were, I wouldn't be arguing over stupid crap on the internet.
     
  17. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Please. If for nothing else, it makes me want to start drinking earlier than usual on this Friday.
     
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  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Because the balls thrown to WRs not Wallace were in the 20 range and the ones too Wallace were 40? And I wanted to compare them to Jennings as that might explain why subpar QBs might hit Jennings more if the throws were shorter in the air.

    I originally posted this here:http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...ny-2-Wallace&p=2327064&viewfull=1#post2327064 but nobody responded so let me try again.

    According to WaPo:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...hpModule_a4df998e-86a7-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394

    I don't have PFF so I was asking if anyone could verify. Your post seems to confirm it as you say only 8 of the 36 were completed or dropped (8 catchable, 6 actually caught).

    Why is he so much more accurate when throwing to everyone else? Lots of possible reasons. Were their routes shorter? A 21 yard pass is not the same as a 40 yard one. Were their routes different? Do our WRs run comebacks at 20 yards out?

    And of course speed. Hitting a turtle at 20 yards out is easier than a cheetah at 30+ yards out. I haven't and won't watch every deep throw unless someone has compiled them ;)

    It's seems to me, from the film Tannehill needs to recognize quicker when Wallace is going to break one. That's going to come with confidence and real game reps. I don't study film as exhaustively as you guys. But from what I've seen, there were a few throws Tanny just waited a smidgen too long. You can't do that with Wallace as he's too fast. Tanny is almost waiting for Wallace to get that step before releasing it. He needs to start his throw as Wallace is getting that step if you know what I mean. It'll come with time and it won't be a high percentage play but the payoff is worth it when it connects.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    One trick pony:

    [video=youtube;BG2hOcexC3U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG2hOcexC3U[/video]

    Of the five TDs, only one was on a deep go route (one Tannehill underthrew badly due to late recognition again). The rest were not. Think Sherman and Philbin missed something there?

    I thought I read a stat someone posted here, that a lot of Wallace's TDs come on passes within 10 yards of the LOS. Him being a one-trick pony actually opens up a lot of other things, even for that pony.
     
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  20. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Guess Calvin Johnson sucks too. Let me google Calvin drop GIFs, na....continue on feeling like you've proven anything.
     
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  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Underthrew badly? He threw the ball 50 yards on the run.
     
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  22. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But he was free for a second already. It's not the distance the ball traveled but when the ball got there. He threw it 50 yards to a spot Wallace was already waiting for. That's underthrowing it. Ok more accurately, late throwing it.
     
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  23. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Oops.
     
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  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And no I'm not saying CJ = MW
     
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  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Calvin Johnson discussion is an interesting one. Much hay is made about MW's catch rate/targets but CJ was around 53.5% last year, not significantly better than Mike Wallace.

    Cut him!
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    when CK posted his stats after my first post, it didn't surprise me, I understood stats without context and pertinent variables are meaningless numbers.
     
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  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    And it was barely underthrown.
     
  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If that DB were any better it's an incomplete or an INT.
     
  29. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    I feel like this discussion has happened before.

    Who's up for a Tannehill > Russell Wilson debate?
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    lol, ok. It was a horrible throw.....50+ yards....for a TD....on the run...:pity:
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm curious about this new argument that Wallace isn't a one trick pony.

    So the argument goes, that Wallace was so good being used one way in Pittsburgh that he scored left and right in Pittsburgh, but he comes here and is used in more ways but only put up 4 of his 5 TDs that weren't deep.

    How does that prove he's not a one trick pony exactly? i mean when he's asked to do more than go deep his numbers decline.
     
  32. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Lmao. Seriously?

    I thought we were talking deep balls, no? OK.

    BTW anyone who can count to five can tell you how late that ball was aka how many strides the DB took towards Wallace after he came out his break WIDE OPEN. That's the kind of thing you can miss when you're too busy trying to be clever.

    Perhaps you could post the play where RT hits Hartline right out of his break on the slant only to find that the CB has already read and jumped the route for the INT. Instead of driving to take the lead before halftime we end up down 21-10. Ooops.
     
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  33. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    That happens a lot when statisticians who don't understand football take to analyzing the game.
     
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  34. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    Notice how far off the DB was covering Wallace too. They HAVE to respect his speed. I don't give 2 flying sh*ts about how "bad" of a route runner he is. I know his hands are bad and it's frustrating how weak he can be at time going for the ball. But he is what he is and that's damn valuable.

    His speed can change a game at any given moment. He's not just fast, he's blazing fast, scary fast, respect me or you'll pay with 6 points fast.

    You can give me the #s all day to say he had a mediocre or bad season, but he's worth it. He scares the pants off db's and if they involve him in other ways he will produce.
     
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  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You bring up the points that need to be made about respective route depth. Tannehill only attempted one pass at 41+ yard depth to a player not named Mike Wallace. He attempted 13 of them toward Wallace. So there IS a disparity there.

    However one thing I'll point out about the "kinds" of routes you mentioned...I don't know of any comeback routes at 20+ yard depth...in football period. I think at 20+ yards it's a vertical or crossing route (and by crossing I mean diagonal not digs). Even crossing routes at 20+ yard depth would be pretty rare I think.

    Going back to the depth issues...lets do something here.

    STATS Inc doesn't measure their splits in exactly the same way. They don't have drops listed (for free anyway). But we know from PFF that Tannehill had 5 total drops at 20+ yard depth and that 2 of them were Wallace.

    Since we know that Tannehill only threw one pass at 41+ yard depth to anyone not named Wallace why don't we just go ahead and assume that Hartline didn't drop that pass and that it went incomplete because Hartline wasn't open or some such. This is a pretty safe assumption, IMO because only 4.8% of his attempts toward (not Mike Wallace) were in the 41+ yard range so what's the chance that of the three drops one of them came on that one ball he threw super deep?

    What you have is Tannehill being "accurate" (catch or drop) on 9 of 21 passes (42.9%) to players not named Mike Wallace...at a depth of 21 to 40 yards.

    Even if you assume that both of Wallace's drops were at the 41+ yard range (not a great assumption since a full 25.5% of Wallace's "deep" attempts were at 41+ yards) then he was accurate toward Wallace on only 5 out of 21 passes (23.8%).

    Particularly you look at the 31 to 40 yard range where Tannehill actually completed 4 out of 6 passes (66.7%) to Hartline, Clay and Gibson...why is it that he could only complete 1 out of 13 passes (7.7%) to Wallace in that same range?
     
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  36. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Fantasy football run amok. People just aren't tuned in to his overall effect on the game bc understanding it takes time and effort where looking at numbers is so friggin easy.

    Check the cushions, how deep/fast the CBs backpedal, where the safeties float to and how deep they get. None of that shows up in a box score.

    Its a a shame bc people KNOW how bad the pass pro was but they act plain dumb when trying to figure out why Wallace wasn't as productive as they hoped. Its pretty easy to defend him when the defense knows the ball is coming out in 2.5 or less.
    j
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I mean if you're diving into this approach you're opening a can of worms here.

    If Mike Wallace is NOT a one trick pony and he scored all these touchdowns off his other tricks as you say then why did he average only 6.6 yards per attempt in his direction on non-deep passes? That's a terrible average.

    I'll give you some hints why he was terrible at that depth. He dropped 9 balls at those depths versus only 67 catches. That's a drop every 8th catchable pass. And yes that is bad on a league-wide basis. He averaged 15.0 yards per reception on passes in the intermediate depth (10 to 20 yards). Dropping 7 of those balls probably cost him 100+ yards. Here's another reason he was poor at intermediate and short depths. He averaged only 3.6 yards after the catch on his 67 catches. That's really not good.

    This is where the rubber meets the road as far as how you can increase your efficiency and effectiveness as a receiver underneath. Catch the damn ball. Run after the catch. Break tackles and such. And this isn't even getting into the times he was not on the same page with Tannehill as far as whether he should continue to run through the catch or if he should sit down between the zones. We can't know for absolute 100% certain who was at fault there but we can damn well take a look at what the defense was doing and take a pretty accurate guess, and it was Wallace who was consistently missing those reads.
     
  38. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Because the whole league knows about Wallace and they take precautions to prevent him from making big plays? OTOH how many defenses take the field saying "we gotta make sure Hartline and Clay don't beat us deep?" It ain't rocket science.


    Our problem was that we couldn't protect long enough to call the plays that set up the deep throws to Wallace. The deep comebacks, digs, etc. We couldn't run a screen to save our lives. The run game was a joke so play action wasn't much of a threat. Same goes for bootlegs and roll outs. Again, it's not terribly complicated.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I see "catch rate" primarily being brought up by people defending Wallace, pretending that Wallace's detractors are using that stat against him.

    But the reality is catch rate is a dubious stat and the people who actually use it to make claims about a player's talent are not being very smart.
     
  40. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I agree here. WRs must adapt to the QB. Can't have a QB trying to accommodate 3-5-7 guys. Receivers must get on the QBs page for an offense to function. Wallace included.
     

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