http://miamiherald.typepad.com/spor...out-lb-um-rejects-interesting-offer-heat.html I feel like that's where we're at in this draft, Mayock seems to be thinking in the same ballpark. It's either a receiver, which will be either Cooks or Beckham, Martin if he drops, or move down because the value of the next available lineman are not top 20 value.. I'm sure their making calls as we speak to see what options there are to move down..
If the big 4 OL are all gone, and Hickey is dead set on addressing OL at 19 and is not able to trade down, between James, Moses, Kouandjio and Bitonio, given those choices I'd take Bitonio.
Hmm, i don't believe that will happen Deej, the value is just not there at Tackle, no matter how hard one tries to shoe horn a Tackle there it does not make sense. Loved what Polian said "a tackle neither scores Td, nor prevents Td's from being scored" We go OL, would love a LG Cb would not surprise me at all, or a DT, Wr also is an odd choice, Wallace and Bline are under contract and Matthews is developing, and Gibby will be ready for camp Interesting pick for me would be a Te
Polian also said value does not matter. The thing you want from the draft is getting good players who can play and fit your system. Words to that effect. Most people thought Chicago reached when they took Kyle Long last year at around the same point in the 1st. He ended up going to the Pro Bowl as a rookie. Does it look like poor value or a reach now? If we took Bitonio at 19 and he started 16 games, played well, and got Pro Bowl consideration, I doubt many rational people could complain. Whomever we take in the 1st I want to be someone who can start from day 1 and be an immediate contributor.
Long also played G and was considered a reach, when interior line mobility is at a huge premium. I do not like the Alabama Tackle, not at all, also think Fox could probably do fine, I see Shelly Smith, LG and shake my head, RG..sure, draft the LG even if he is a Reach, look at this way, if he is a reach, he still will be the second G off the board, we'd have to pick through the leaven's at Tackle at that point in the draft. IMO, it is better to take the #1 or #2 guy at a position then the #5 guy, if that means TE/LG/CB/MLB then so be it
If not Zack Martin in the first, and it probably won't be, I like Jawuan James or Morgan in the 2nd. I am afraid of Cyrus Kouandjio with his knee issues and they may hamper his career.
Is there any site that ranks the players that come out each year but not just in the first year but after certain milestones, like 5 years later?
As much as I and others, all of us to a degree, want to fix our problem at right tackle, I Wouldn't do it if the value wasn't there, if I'm adamant about fixing the oline first and formost than I would move down to where I'm not reaching value wise for the player..it's just the way it is when it comes to the draft..player must be top 20 worthy.
You overestimte the Miami fan base. It wasn't too long ago we drafted Pouncey at 15, he got or at least should have gotten Pro Bowl consideration as a rookie and yet there were some who still complained. - Just saying
That was a horrible pick, 0 impact. We needed a QB in pro style offense, a QB who can deliver deep ball like Eli, Mallett was on the board and we picked this dude. This is similiar to Odrick and Jordan, they went to combine and got impressed by some nobody 0 impact player and drafted him over impact player. Luckily they got Clay that year in the 6th round to save that draft a little.
Agreed. ****SPECULATION WARNING**** I think if we remember back to last TC, the coaches were messing around heavily with oline. They were moving guys around quite a bit. Based on the info that came out about how Philbin felt about Martin & Cogs, its possible they were trying to find someone on the roster to replace those two. Part of that process was trying to see what Dallas Thomas could do. Basically, they tried him at virtually every spot on the line (maybe save center, can't remember) to see where he could fit. I think that resulted in an overly negative view of him by the fans. Its possible fans mistook that for Dallas sucking but was actually about the coaches displeasure with Martin & Cogs and they wanted to see if we could replace them. So at that point you have a rookie (who was a very respected draft pick, btw) coming into his first camp and is asked to try numerous positions. Few guys could go through that and still look good. Point being, almost everyone has written off Thomas, but there's a real chance he's just not as bad as everyone has perceived.
Mallett over Pouncey in the 1st back in 2011? No. Mallett over Daniel Thomas in the 2nd? Yes. All day everyday.
RG will be Smith. Anyone projecting him to LG is glazing over the fact that Shelley is a complete work in progress in pass protection. He is however a good run blocking guard and that we could definitely use on the right side.
Smith could go to either side, but I'm with you, I'd rather see him on the right. Thomas has been a left side guy during his college career so LG seems like the best place for him. The line could be Albert/Thomas/Pouncey/Smith/Ja'Wuan James.
Apparently the Bears did not consider him a reach and they were proven correct to this point. That's the thing about using the word 'value' when it comes to a draft pick. What constitutes real value? Is it taking a guy at or near the point where the draft pundits predicted him to go, or is it taking a guy who becomes a day 1 starter for you and a significant contributor? I was listening to Corey Chavous on CBS Sports' draft show today and he said the best place for Wes Richburg to go would be Green Bay in the 1st and that Wes is a top 30 overall in his rankings. Now if that happens, I think the usual suspects on NFLN and ESPN may be calling the pick a major reach. Then, after Richburg becomes a day 1 starter, plays 16 games, and makes the All Rookie Team, I doubt those same folks are gonna come back on the air and say they were wrong.
Reaching smeaching. Just take the player you want when he is available. Half the players are gonna produce nothing of note anyways. Take the 2000 draft. The 1st pick vs 199th pick. I know it's an extreme example but it is what it is. Its a guessing game. If you like the player, take the player. That's it.
Here is my concern with that. The trade down would be nice, but requires a dance partner to make it happen. Sometimes, perhaps most of the time, no one wants to dance with ya. Looking at the overall rankings, the 50-60 overall range looks like a no man's land to me when it comes to getting at least one of the 2nd tier of OL prospects. We know for sure unless they get caught with 50 lbs of weed in their trunk or knock over a liquor store in the next 5 days that Robinson, Matthews and Lewan won't make it to us, and probably not Martin either. The next group of OL includes Su'a-Filo, 28th overall according to NFL Draft Scout, Kouandjio 33rd & trending down, Moses 35th, James 38th & trending up, and Bitonio 41st. If we wait to pick 50, we will most likely miss out on all of them. This puts us into the 3rd tier, IMO, of OL. Next is Marcus Martin a C/G from USC, 58th. Jack Mewhort 62nd, Gabe Jackson a pure guard, 65th, Weston Richburg, C/G, 67th & trending up, Tiny Richardson 72nd, Billy Turner 78th, Trai Turner 101st & trending up, Cameron Fleming, 103rd and someone I hope we don't take at all, Michael Schofield 112th, Travis Swanson, C/G, 119th, Cyril Richardson 121st, Laurent Duvernay-Tardif 142nd. Would you be happy with any two of those 3rd tier guys as our 2nd and 3rd rounders and feel we did enough to protect our developing young QB? As much as those 1st round WRs make my mouth water, if RT17 had gotten middle of the pack pass protection last year, with no other changes we would have been a playoff team. Even with the same exact WRs and TEs as last season. Even with the overly vilified Wallace. Even with the Chinese fire drill that Ellerbe and Wheeler were trying to stop the run at LB.
great points, I touched on this before, all this talk of how deep the draft is at OL and yet it seems people are either overlooking or completely forgetting the fact that lineman are always one of the most coveted positions in the draft, they get pushed up every year. I could see some of your 3rd tier guys, the tackles at least like Tiny Richardson and Billy Turner, gone at 50 too. and best believe whatever OL we take first has to be our RT, we can't gamble with that position, you can find a guard later in the draft (even though Ireland couldn't for 6 years). what I would do is move down in the 1st to gain ammo for a trade up in the 2nd for that tackle. you use your first pick on a weapon like Odell Beckham or a linebacker like Mosley or Shazier or a corner like Kyle Fuller or Bradley Roby...and you gained an extra 3rd so now when you sacrifice one moving up into the first 5-6 picks of the 2nd round to secure a Moses or Turner or Kouandjio, you still have a 3rd rounder left.
I do get everyone's point about getting at OT while you can, but I guess it just feels wrong to keep spending so high on another OLineman. We have Albert, Pouncey, Smith that should start, and then Fox, Brenner and Thomas as questions with potential upside. Maybe it's blind optimism, but that seems to be pretty decent group to mix in some rookies with upside too, and not have to spend another 1st. We could still pick up a vet after the draft. The trade down scenario would obviously be best to pick up a 2nd tier OT, but short of that I would just want to get whoever they feel is the best playmaker, or honestly even a QB (and I'm real high on Ryan). We need to think about difference makers IMO, I may be wrong, but I don't think having a first round pick on your entire line is needed or sustainable.
Yup, for me it's all about the OL and Brandin Cooks, and it might end up being Cooks because he's just too good to pass up. I am (I think) one of the few remaining fans of Kouandjio, but even if Zack Martin was there at #19 I wouldn't argue with Cooks being the pick at #19. But then you REALLY have to look at a RT at #50, and I'd hate to reach there and pass on Kyle Van Noy if available. I'm thinking James Gayle or Trai Turner in the 3rd rd, and if for some reason we miss on RT in rds1-2 I'm looking at Michael Schofield and Matt Patchan later in the draft, and to me Patchan is a true wild card, a talented player over his injuries and on the rise.
Which part makes you sick? That those are the guys who're the 2nd tier or that by waiting until 50 we likely miss out on all of them?
I am not sure Gabe Jackson fits our blocking scheme, but when you watch the guy, he is a beast when blocking one on one. In the LSU game he made Ego Ferguson look undraftable, and this is a likely 3rd round DT. If he did fit and you did not want to project guys to different positions, IMO, you'd take Ja'Wuan James in the 1st, RT solved with the most experienced RT in the draft. At pick 50, ya take Big Gabe to plug in at LG with a guy who started 52 straight games at LG in college. With Shelley Smith at RG, and Albert at LT, the line should be solved. Then take a CJ Fiedorowicz in the 3rd and Robert Herron in the 4th to bolster the receiving corps. CJ as an inline Y also bolsters the run game with his blocking too. Then hope for a guy like Preston Brown, Lamin Barrow or Max Bullough to compete for the MLB job in the 5th.
Trading up for Martin would be a horrible move. No one has any idea if Zach Martin can play tackle and if we give up two picks for a guard then Hickey should be castrated.
I think assuming the top 4 OL are gone that Hickey will want to trade down. 26 w/Cleveland seems like a good spot to me. But I am not so sure he'll find someone wanting to trade up, and then can we afford to wait to take an OL if we are forced to pick at 19. Today on their mock draft show, Kiper vs McShay, with Riddick and Polian analyzing the picks, McShay went BPA at 19 and gave us Justin Gilbert. Polian was very critical of them not going for OL, and said even if you have to reach for a guy like Bitonio that you take him at 19, and because he addresses a critical weakness, and will play from the get go, it is a value pick. Some words to that effect anyway. BTW, Gruden has Aaron Murray on his QB camp show. That is one intelligent young man. IMO, Brees like qualities. Hope we can get him at some point too. Edit. Let's hope Cleveland passes on a QB early. I listened again and Polian said "Miami has to get lined up. The first thing you gotta do as a GM is get lined up, and they need offensive line help...trade out and if you can't trade go ahead and take Bitonio there. They need character, they need smarts, they need toughness. Get it done. The job of the draft is to get football players who can help your team, not look for value with the pick." Pretty close to that is what he said anyway.
Just speaking toward draft philosophy. Why would drafting a position of need be a consideration unless that need player graded out very close to the best talent left on the board. Regardless of position I want them to draft the very best player available. At the very worst you end up with two very good players at one position and you can trade one of them away for future picks or players that you need. That IMO is the best formula for sucess over the long term. Drafting by need is a quick fix that leads to short term success.
I wasnt really meaning to single you out. Its just a reoccurring theme I see on these boards around draft time. I was more venting than anything. Its a shortsighted approach to building a team IMHO
The thought of missing out on all of those 2nd tier guys. I'd be happy w/ several of those guys, maybe all, but knowing we will likely miss all of the 1st tier guys becomes a really bitter pill to swallow if we miss on all of the 2nd tier guys. Ugh. Not good.
I think our Oline is already better than last year, and that's not even accounting for the fact that I think our line play could have been mitigated at least some by play calling. but we could pick up a vet like Winston or bring back Clabo, and have this line: Albert/Brenner/Pouncey/Smith/Vet with Thomas, Garner, Fox as potentials too to compete at LG and RT, along with whatever rookies you bring in. Going from that to adding a rookie at #19 on the OLine, are you really getting much better? Hard to say. If they feel a player at another position is significantly more talented than the OLine options, I'd hope they do that, while still picking some OLinemen at some point later on.
I absolutely agree w/ you on this and also that play calling can make a difference in the protection as well. Also, I think the addition of Moreno will help w/ pass pro as well. I asked about FA RT's and didn't get much of a response, but I agree add one of those guys for a fair price and draft BPA's all day long. Get some freaking playmakers.
Yeah didn't even think about our rb blocking, which accounted for a bunch of sacks. Thats a good point. Seems like Tanne improved his awareness and escapability as last year went on too.
Not like he could have gotten any worse. Hoping a little chip from a decent TE or our H back can help as well. Maybe more than a little chip against Mario.
