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Greg Jennings vrs Mike Wallace..a year later.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, May 1, 2014.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Again, what hindered Wallace's production was Tannehill connecting with him downfield on just 6 of 34 attempts. If Tannehill hits just 4 more of those, that's an additional 198 yards [based on Wallace's avg of 49.5 yards per catch on deep balls], pushing his season total to 1128 yards. That's not getting into the additional TDs involved with hitting one of the game's fastest players without making him slow down or come back to the ball. It's a fly or go route for a reason, not a deep comeback.
     
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  2. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    The response to this (if any) will be interesting to say the least. Don't run and hide now Wallace haters..
     
  3. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So what? Ted Ginn Jr. is faster than virtually any defensive back, and probably faster than Wallace as well.

    Wallace not running good routes, getting off of coverage by any reasons other than speed, and his inability to fight for the ball are major detriments towards Wallace being in reality "open".
     
  4. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why was the quarterbacks QB rating 20+ points higher throwing to Hartline(or for that matter, everyone else on the team) than it was throwing to Wallace then?
     
  5. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    My point exactly. Teddy may be even faster than Wallace, but why did we never see him running free on a consistent basis? I mean, Wallace can't run a route to save his life...so how do you explain him being so much better than Ginn when we have no speed disparity?
     
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  6. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Because he rarely threw TOO Wallace, just around him.
     
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  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's funny, because the exact same "observations" about Wallace always being open were very much said about Ginn circa 2008.

    Wallace had a pretty much optimal set of circumstances in Pittsburgh in 2010/2011. He had an offensive coordinator willing to sell out to let him do his thing and a quarterback who could forgo "timing" concerns and wait for him to outrun coverage- Regardless if it was within the confines of a normal route/play combination.

    He didn't have that in Pittsburgh in 2012, he doesn't have that in Miami, and he won't have that on most of the teams in the NFL. He's a poor man's Joey Galloway or a rich man's Donte Stallworth who is going to get too many targets right now on a team trying to recoup their losses chasing what a guy did in conditions they can't or shouldn't bother trying to reproduce.
     
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  8. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    There's 5 minutes worth of video evidence showing Wallace open deep, you won't find any of that with Ginn. Why is that? You said Ginn was faster...Wallace sucks at running routes, what is the difference?
     
  9. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I literally just explained Wallace's circumstances in the post above. Ginn and Wallace don't have the exact same quality or skillsets. The point was it wasn't entirely about speed, however.

    That being said though, I'd rather have what Ted Ginn had in 2013 in terms of cost, production, and opportunity cost than what Wallace provided in 2013.
     
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  10. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    :lol::lol::lol: :up:
     
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  11. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    So "scheme" is the reason Wallace gets open and Ginn who is faster doesn't. Nice.
     
  12. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're not doing a good job tracking communication in reasonably coherent English being presented at a slow pace.

    Ginn is not the same thing as Wallace, even in equal ground. The difference on that equal footing is much less than you'd like to imagine, however.
     
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  13. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    If your argument is that Wallace is only open because of speed, then no, im not following you.

    Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
     
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  14. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Why? It's b/c Tannehill couldn't hit Wallace deep to save his life like decent NFL QBs are capable of. Those TANNEHILL woes caused Wallace's yards, TDs, completions, and completion percentage to all take a hit, and obviously those factor heavily into QB Rating.

    Tannehill's QB rating to Hartline was higher for the simple fact he threw 24 less downfield passes to Hartline, completing just 2/10. It's an easy number's thing. If Tannehill struggles with the downfield game and attempts 24 less passes to Hartline, or 24 more to Wallace, the simple mathematical nature of this difference will allow the QB Rating to Hartline to remain less hindered while doing the exact opposite to Wallace.
     
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  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're acting as if Tannehill has struggled down the field with anyone other than Wallace, which isn't the case as a professional. Not in 2012, not with any receiver other than Wallace in 2013. You can complain about quantity, but there's more non-Wallace deep attempts than attempts thrown to him during that time period, and there's a pretty distinct difference.

    Again, I've brought it up a bunch of times, but I've seen nothing where people have an explanation for what was wrong in 2012 in Pittsburgh in the same regard. His performance sucked there too, and a quarterback that you can't really throw under the bus because it's the same one he found success with. How's that?
     
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Todd Haley, the OC that Ben quarreled with in the media. Before Haley Ben was throwing at a ypa rivaling Peyton's last year during his record breaking run (8.3). His ypa the two years before were 8.3 and 7.9, it's been stuck at 7.3 the two years since. That's a huge drop.

    I know the stats are out there that Ben still threw it to Wallace plenty but if the play design isn't good it still has a low chance of success (see ours last year with plenty of people complaining about the play design). And it was revealed that Haley stripped Ben of his audible power.

    Haley's offense is more suited to an Antonio Brown/Brandon Marshall type. Wallace does require a specific type of offense, a big play Bruce Arians style but Arians is very inventive with his play design, with lots of pre-snap movement.

    I'm no film nor scheme guru, but did we run anything like this last year?

    [​IMG]

    Two WRs and a TE bunched tight at one end, Andre Ellington/RB lined up on the other, empty backfield. I'm not talking about this specific type of formation but how was Philbin/Sherman's inventiveness when it came to presnap motions, shifts and other schemes designed to hide routes etc.

    If Wallace flames out here, I do think it best for his career to sign with Arians if he'll have him (I'm a huge Michael Floyd fan). What Bruce has done going from two mobile strong armed QBs to the statue that is Carson Palmer is commendable.
     
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  17. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  18. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [/quote]

    Arians was willing to make a lot of concessions that Haley was not, but I'm not sure that's something you regard as a black mark against Haley. Many guys would be in the same boat. Some offenses(like this one) doing some of that stuff would represent a fundamental shift in passing concepts. When it comes down to the big picture, I'm not sure that you rate Bruce Arians as a superior offensive mind to Todd Haley, either.

    I'm not trying to denigrate Arians, he's good at his job and got the raw end of the deal in Pittsburgh. I'd definitely think Wallace would be smart to go to Arizona if given an opportunity as well.


    I'm pretty well certain Miami has. Probably not as much as some others, but I think that's less of an observation of Arians coming up with something innovative as it is an explanation of a lot of the very complex game theory that goes into what professional coaches do.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I just ask because I thought someone said Wallace lined up in the same spot 95% of snaps or something.
     
  20. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    I'm sure we have that triple formation. College teams run triple formation a lot, it's nothing new or innovative.
     
  21. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It sounds a bit strange, but it's not that rare or regressive. I don't have recent stats off the top of my head but for example the Colts under Tom Moore did the same thing.
     
  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Uh, in what game was was Wallace targeted more than he should have been?
     
  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Completing 2 of 10 passes to Hartline, as Todd posted, is not struggling??
     
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  24. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Yes and that was his fault. He should have instructed Tanny in the huddle to stop throwing to him once he'd reached a set number of targets already in that game. Excellent idea.
     
  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Pretty much any game he has double digit targets are definitely too much.

    6 of 14 are the Pro Football Focus stats. That's a catch rate of 42.9%, which is a far cry better than Wallace's 16.7%. That's about as bad as it gets.

    No, he shouldn't have been such a focal point of the game plan. He got way more targets this year in Miami than he ever received in Pittsburgh.
     
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  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Beyond 20 yards, Tannehill completed 8 of 41 to Wallace [20%].... and a putrid 1 of 9 to Hartline [11%]. You were saying?
    Tannehill attempted 18 deep balls [beyond 40 yards] the past 2 years. The only receiver to catch one is Mike Wallace! The rest went 0/6. Again, you were saying?

    yeah that's utterly false.

    61% of Tannehill's pass attempts beyond 20 yards last year went to Wallace.
    84% of Tannehill's pass attempts beyond 30 yards last year went to Wallace.

    Wallace wasn't even with the team in 2012 yet 51% of Tannehill's passes beyond 30 yards since then went to Wallace, and 67% beyond 40 yards.

    Wallace was 1 of 3 receivers in the NFL to post over 4000 yards and 32 TDs while in Pitt yet he somehow sucked there according to you. Excuse me if I don't buy that. Trying to dismiss his accomplishments and prowess as one of the game's best big play receivers b/c of a down year in a new offensive scheme and without his starting QB for nearly 1/5 of the season is utter bull****. His 2 seasons prior to that saw the FOURTH MOST yards [2450] and FOURTH MOST touchdowns [18] of any receiver in the NFL during that span. Yup, the NFL's most productive vertical threat prior to joining Miami is the reason deep balls aren't completed by Tannehill. Yup, no way it's the young unproven QB's fault whose prior history of deep balls in the NFL consisted of 3 attempts in 2012, of which none were completed. :001_rolleyes:
     
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  27. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I was wrong. It was 1 of 9 beyond 20 yards to Hartline [11%] according to Sports Illustrated. I accidentally included MATT MOORE'S lone deep completion.

    ...... but somehow Wallace is the culprit of the passing game's downfield woes. :unsure: Looks clearly like the biggest two culprits are Tannehill and Hartline, but that's probably why Hartline's replacement will be drafted next weekend.
     
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  28. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You're right. When a QB struggles with his deep ball as much as Tannehill did last year, it's probably wise to attempt less of them. But then again, do you really wanna operate under the expectation of failure with a second year QB who needs to develop and could benefit greatly from as many deep reps as he can get in order to expedite his development, especially since he was afforded so few deep balls as a rookie?
     
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  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So it was even worse... I am sure the incompletions deep to Hartline were also somehow Wallace's fault though. :chuckle:
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Wrong again.
     
  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    And the interest in 1st round WRs could be no more than subterfuge. It is that time of year. If the entirety of our drafting WRs consists of only Robert Herron, whom I like btw, that would hardly be a sign of the end for Wallace in Miami, except for those who want him gone no matter what he does.
     
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  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Maybe your explanation of why you believe he was not really open deep when he looked wide open deep, was not sufficiently explained as being anything more than your opinion.
     
  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    yup, Hickey is definitely exhausting resources to find Hartline's replacement.
     
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  34. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Can you imagine the sniveling and crying around here, if we draft Robert Herron in the 3rd/4th and he ends up replacing Hartline in 2015 instead of the hated Wallace? It will be something for the ages.
     
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  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Could easily rival the butthurt and sour grapes around here if Mike Wallace were traded surprisingly in 2014 or cut in 2015.
     
  36. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Where are those from? It's not what Pro Football Focus has.

    You are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

    I said that Tannehill has markedly better accuracy deep to non-Wallace players than he does to Wallace. Wallace got the majority of deep attempts this year, but the combined attempts from 2012/2013 to other players represents more attempts than those to Wallace in 2013, and hence makes them comparable.

    Yeah, he was pretty amazing. In 2010 and 2011.
     
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  37. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This we can all agree on. Let's hope for the sake of the TEAM, he finds that fire again. If not, bye.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    So then you KNEW you were bringing up an invalid point and you brought it up anyway? That's confusing. You admit that I didn't make a catch rate argument about whether a receiver was good or not. Sooooo...how did I contradict myself? Fact of the matter is, I didn't.
     
  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Touche'
     
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  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No. My post is quite clear. You said it was useless as rain in Egypt in evaluating WRs. I said, while you didn't use it to make a determination, you were using it in a thread analyzing a WR, analzying a WR. Either way, it's done. That was like, ages ago.

    If you can come up with a reason catch rate is useless unless it's 20 yards or longer, I'm all ears.
     

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