Nope. I'm a big Matthews fan also. I didn't think there was a big drop-off when he took over for Gibson last year. Anyone have an idea on how often the Eagles lined up with 4 WRs?
I like Gibson a lot but I wonder if we're overrating him a bit. He made some very clutch plays, but he's a 700-800 yard guy. Solid, dependable, but does Rishard have more potential?
I'm not sure we're overrating him...he was a baller last year, played with excitement, got open, made tough catches...I was a fan. Now with this injury...gonna have to wait and see. Matthews looks to be of the same cut to me, and much younger...has to have more potential considering experience.
Clearly the staff likes him so I'm sure Landry will get every opportunity to succeed and I'll be rooting for him but my point was that he looked like Gibson while facing vastly inferior competition. If a WR has trouble separating in college then most likely he will have even more trouble at the next level. We have plenty of cap space, theres no reason to cut a productive player for financial reasons. Let them all compete in camp and keep the best six guys. My concern is that the expectations for this kid seem to be rising by the day and I'd hate for people to be disappointed or start turning on him if he doesn't produce right away.
If you watch the film you'll see that often the opposite is true. KB posted some screen shots in Club that show teams giving Landry the attention opening up the field for Beckham.
So if you've watched him a ton, what exactly do you see that is raw in his game that he'll have to develop that makes him a project? I don't see raw skills that would make a player a project. I see a very refined player.
They were also both healthy and at positions of need. Philbin does not keep rookies on the bench simply because they are rookies. Vernon played about the average number of snaps for a reserve DE. He wasn't limited to that number by being a rookie. He was limited by the talent ahead of him. Egnew did not develop as a rookie. He wasn't kept on the bench for any other reason. Miller was stuck behind Bush. Matthews was said to have been very slow picking up the offense. His not being a quick study is still a concern. The 2013 class, we had the top 3 join the team as damaged goods. Davis was getting a lot of work in camp until he got hurt. So we ended up with our first 4 picks set back from valuable playing time in camp to develop and earn a role. Brenner, also a rookie, played ahead of Thomas, that is true. But, guess who was healthy all preseason and led the offense in preseason snaps? Brenner. If Philbin had qualms about playing a rookie just because he's a rookie, he'd have used Danny Watkins at guard instead of Brenner. Shelby got one start, in week 4, instead of Jordan. Was that because Jordan was a rookie or because he was only able to play 21 snaps in preseason while Shelby played 144? Shelby is noted for his run defense anyway, and the position was strong side end. So Trusnik started instead Jenkins. Why was that? Would you have us believe it was because Jenkins was a rookie, when Trusnik is better suited for MLB and SAM in the base defense? In Trusnik's first start, MLB, he played 36 snaps, while Jenkins played 32 off the bench in passing situations. For anyone to say Philbin simply doesn't play or doesn't like to play rookies, is untrue. Their rookie status won't keep them on the bench if they are healthy and show they are the best option.
I've watched the film, a lot, screen shots do not take prescedent over reps, of course you will find instances, and I have not stated that I think this is the case, I made a comparison to a player last year that had the more talented player on the other side, Landry works the middle of the field, there is always traffic there, but I think if folks are thinking a future #2 receiver who plays on the outside, then I don't think you will need to double him.
I don't think Landry needs a ton of room to make plays, so the separation issue may not be as much of an issue. If Landry plays like the guys he's being compared to (Ward & Boldin), then I think we'll all be happy. T I'm with you about letting the guys compete and keeping the best 6. If the staff views Landry, Matthews, and Gibson as similar players during the competition, then I'd be worried if I was Gibson due to my contract and injury. Landry and Matthews have a higher ceiling IMO which would also contribute to the decision.
I think he does. I would also just echo the same thoughts that PhinFan1968 said. When I was referring to the 4 WR sets, I wasn't including Gibson as one of them.
I've watched film a lot too, I was merely using those screen shots as an example. I realize you made a comparison, but you suggested that possibly Landry's success had something to due with the fact that Landry played with Beckham. I don't agree with that notion. Mike Mayock said that when watching LSU to watch Beckham, you can't tell which WR is Beckham and which is Landry. Obviously Beckham is faster, but both of them are talented WRs and Landry was the go-to guy. The same things that are being said about Landry have been said about many, many WRs who didn't light up the combine yet went on to have very good careers in the NFL.
Seems to me like Gibson was a more effective red zone weapon between the two. Looking back, I see his 3 TDs came in his last two games. Matthews' 2 TD catches both came in one game in week 10, and from then on, no more TD catches from the 3rd/slot WR position. Personally, I think all our WRs from Wallace down to Hazel are pretty good. It's a nice problem to have and may the best ones win the jobs.
I'm just going on record as saying I believe Landry has a very solid rookie year and contributes well. I'm not going to debate 40 times and how his skill set translates to the pros. I'm just going to let his play this season speak fot itself one way or another.
[video=youtube;x0gTJHMwF2k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0gTJHMwF2k[/video] 1:57 is a big time catch that is a TD in the NFL (knee down). Notice how he adjusts his body and never takes his eye off the ball even as it hits his outstretched hand. Only the laws of gravity force him to move his head as he falls. Notice his body control at well. While everyone was raving about the physical attributes of Calvin Johnson I was one of the few people saying his body control was what would make him special. Landry has excellent body control and eye discipline as shown on this play. 2:20 isn't spectacular by any stretch but I love the way he settles between the two defenders, finds the ball and catches it at its high point allowing him to pull it down and take the hit. 2:30 Just another solid example of catching with his hands at the high point and eye control. 3:00 Notice a trend here? Eye control. Focus. Hands. High point the ball. These are things that coaches DRILL into your head as early as pee-wee leagues. I can't say I see a WR in this draft with better combined skill in these areas. 3:35 Even though some people will have you believe Landry is slow as dripping tar he manages to catch a ball over the middle and use his speed and a great running angle to split two Georgia Bulldog defenders for a TD. 3:47 The defender is literally grabbing his jersey and pulling him away from the ball. Some receivers give up on the play and wait for the flag. Not Landry, that is his ball and you're going to need to knock him out cold if you expect him not to fight for it. Ridiculous concentration and strength to make this catch. 4:15 Possibly the most ridiculous catch of the video. Overall...while he may not have eye popping numbers I see the same things I saw in Calvin Johnson that made me love him before the draft. It isn't the size and speed (which obviously just elevate CJ even further) it's the body control, the hands, the focus, the determination. The attitude that when the ball is in the air in belongs to him and no-one else. I honestly believe Landry develops into a borderline #1 guy but at least a very solid #2.
This is a guy who shows a lot of heart and love for the game. He just wants to play football and take pride in that. He's going to be easy to root for, probably be great in the locker room and on the field, and even sell some jerseys along the way.
IF Hartline and Gibson are both 100% it is going to be hard for him to be active on gamedays unless he plays on special teams. Although if he can show enough in camp/preseason he could get some snaps on Sundays. I do think they view him more as a replacement for either Hartline or Gibson in 2015 more than an every game player this year. Who knows, he might light it up and be a starter.
I expect he will excel at ST and will play on O some each game, if not start. I will be disappointed if he doesn't.
He ran a 4.61 and that's what he is on tape. The time wasn't a fluke. He's not fast. He doesn't have special acceleration either (which would also translate somewhat into the 40). I'd say his game was predicated on body control and ability to finish catches. He also had a pretty accurate QB so that helped. He's a typical slot receiver at the next level.
Will be interesting to see if his speed improves in NFL strength/speed training, athletically when guys hit the league they still are ascending athletically. IIRC, some of the packers Wr did not hit the league with great speed it developed over time
It was posted earlier in this very thread, around page 2 or 3. It was also posted on all his "pro day" reports and in threads when he was drafted.
Do you feel Moncrief would have been the better pick in this slot, due to his greater upside? I kind of feel like Landry was selected as Brandon Gibson insurance. I don't hate the pick, but i don't love it.
The odds are weighed pretty heavily against WR's succeeding who run over 4.6. Those are just the realities. I think that Landry has the potential to be the exception but anecdotal evidence is not as useful to rely on. I'm not anti-Landry; really like the player. But, anyone who is not concerned about a 28-30 inch vertical should be. No amount of desire is going to help him out leap an athletic DB in tight coverage. However, again, great hands, smart routes, and using his physical body and strength will be a bonus. Rooting for him.
yeah my conviction about that is not 100 percent, but matching up their talents I can see it being the case, when Mayock had Landry equal to Beckham earlier in the draft process I disagreed with him then and stated so, I do see a difference when I watch both on film, after a while he dropped Landry below Beckham.
In a vacuum, sure. If you're only looking at a 40 time of course you don't say "well, this guy ran a time above that and still had success, so why shouldn't he?". But when I watch him on tape I see a good football player that gives me reason to believe he belongs in the group of WRs that ran relatively slow 40 times and still went on to good careers.
YAC and RAC, if he runs like a tailback with the ball in his hands he will do just fine. Real question is..what is his path to playing time this yr? Gibby, Binns, Matthews all have shown ability to make plays, Bline and Wallace are not sitting
This is actually false. Good ball tracking and body positioning can overcome leaping ability. As well as the ability to find the ball at its high point. It would be great if he had a 44" vertical but not being a big jumper will not ruin a career.
Some studies were done (one was in one of the local Miami papers recently) among players drafted and 40 times was a significant factor among equally drafted players. Every player is different of course, but a player needs something special to overcome slower speed.
Simply don't agree. Two players side by side with similar training going up for the ball the guy with the better vert will win. It's not like Landry is going to be that much more elite in terms of body-positioning and ball tracking than an NFL starting CB (you're talking about going up against a top 60 CB in the world; most of whom are very good athletes of similar size). A college CB, for sure, because they are into the hundreds. But, most NFL CBs are going to be very well trained and skilled on body positioning and ball tracking and he's not going to have that big of an advantage. And the vertical leap can also be a measurement of explosiveness. Landry will have to be exceptional at running routes and quickly develop a lot of tricks of the trade to separate to overcome some of the athletic limitations. Let's hope he will.
I think you're over estimating most corners ability to position and fight for a ball. Also unless the ball is thrown 40" above your head the max of your vertical leap doesn't matter. The high point on the arch of a jump ball is almost NEVER going to be that high.
That's not true. You're acting as if jump balls are always at a max height so the guy who can jump the highest has the best chance. As long as the ball is within his range (almost all catchable balls will be) then it comes down numerous other things that have nothing to do with height or vert....like strength, positioning, toughness, etc....all things Landry has in spades.
I believe the study you're talking about was in an Armando Salguero article that claimed this was "analytics", which is nonsense because it was based solely off of 40 time. Of course slower players have a tougher time being successful, but many slow players don't have the kind of career this kid had at LSU. You don't necessarily have to be special to overcome slower speed, you need to be very good at other things, which Landry is IMO.
I predict that Jarvis Landry will become a very good slot receiver. But I doubt he'll ever be a great outside WR.
