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2 TE Set: Gator Hoskins & Charles Clay

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by normaldude, May 21, 2014.

  1. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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    Gator Hoskins seems like a clone of Charles Clay.

    I know Gator Hoskins is a long shot to make the roster, but if he does, I think a 2 TE set with Gator Hoskins & Charles Clay could give defenses fits.

    We'd have 7 big men on the line, so the defense would have to respect the run.

    But at the same time, we'd have 4 receivers on the line who can threaten deep, and catch the deep ball in stride.

    Thoughts?

    [video=youtube;LA7ASYOdHxs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA7ASYOdHxs[/video]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA7ASYOdHxs

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1767241/gator-hoskins

    http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=108663&draftyear=2014&genpos=FB

    http://www.draftinsider.net/reports/2014/TE/Gator-Hoskins
     
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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If he makes the roster and climbs the depth chart they would have the opportunity to do with Gator Hoskins and Charles Clay what they seemed to envision with Dustin Keller and Charles Clay. But who knows if it will work well or not.
     
  3. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    He does have similar size and speed to Clay. Marshall isn't known for consistently producing NFL talent (although they have had some really good players and one HOFer) but neither is Tulsa. I think Miami could get away with stashing him on the practice squad, but it's also likely that Egnew will be cut so there's conceivably a space for him on the roster. We went into the season with three active TE's and Keller on IR with Kyle Miller on the practice squad. I can see him making the practice squad.'

    Also, he just has a really great name so I'm rooting for him.
     
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  4. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    Is it all possible that they are envisioning Hoskins as a FB similar to Khun in Green Bay? Might be an easier path for him to make the roster
     
  5. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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    A Miami Herald article today said that Lazor's offense won't really use a fullback, but rather H-backs & tight ends.

    ----------

    ..There’s no natural fullback, though there is a role for an H-back and multiple tight end sets, the player said.

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/spor...-2-postscripts-um-marlins-jimbo-responds.html
     
  6. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's a bit pedantic, but I think the terminology is a bit ****ed up in regards to Fullback vs. H-Back. The terms get used to denote player types when they're two distinct positions and roles. Most offenses who use a "true" H-Back have a separate role for a fullback, and it's pretty distinct in the Coryell offensive tree that spawned it.

    For example, I think you'd say Michael Egnew was more of a fullback than an H-Back last year. If he was in the backfield, he was mostly in an I-Formation. If he was an H-Back, he would be lined up offset behind the Tackle, in wing positions, blocking from motion, etc.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Here's a more comprehensive video of his receiving action that I created:

    [video=youtube;cCYj-MPA9d8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCYj-MPA9d8[/video]
     
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  9. JOHN_M

    JOHN_M New Member

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    Would you all still be so enamored with hoskins if his name was marc?

    SENT FROM MY LG G-FLEX........LIFE IS GOOD
     
  10. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    ....You're going to have to provide some context.
     
  11. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I'm hoping for more along the lines of Marcel Reece (sp?) of the Raiders.
     
  12. JOHN_M

    JOHN_M New Member

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    I just think his popularity is spurred by his name!

    SENT FROM MY LG G-FLEX........LIFE IS GOOD
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    for an undrafted rookie he looks pretty damn good..
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like the kid Rivera they took from tennesee last year..he flashed well last season for a late pick..If gator can be that caliber I'll be stoked.
     
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  15. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I think it has more to do with the fact that he scored 25 touchdowns during his last two years at Marshall.
     
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  16. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I know the Bills suck, but is it really appropriate for them to be playing a college team in that first clip?
     
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  17. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Guy is really athletic. A lot of those catchers aren't just gimme catches. I'm not very familiar with Marshall, but he looks to be the best player on that team, it just matters whether the best player on Marshall in 2013-2014 translates to NFL success.

    Has he ever blocked? Like ever in his college career?
     
  18. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He doesn't have the same speed, but, he kinda reminds me of Ronnie Brown catching and running with the ball. Good routes. Great hands, at least in those highlights. I'm looking forward to seeing him against NFL talent.
     
  19. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Yes, one time he blocked the doorway to class. That's about it as far I know.
     
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  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Most common question continues to be can Gator block. Personally I don't think it matters much. If Charles Clay is an impact tight end, if Jordan Reed is an impact tight end, then I doubt it really matters whether he blocks or not.

    But for those that MUST know, here's a video of just Marshall's touchdowns this year (fun video, recommend watching for one of my favorite QBs for 2015 Rakeem Cato). Asterisks on the most interesting blocks.

    *Left Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=152

    *Right Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=175

    *Right Side H-Back:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=306

    Left Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=374

    Right Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=445

    Left Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=491

    *Right Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=542

    *Right Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=734

    *Right Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=1226

    Right Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=1371

    *Right Side H-Back:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=1434

    *Left Side TE:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lJ0NJV175es#t=1556

    *Right Side H-Back:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ0NJV175es&feature=player_detailpage#t=1569

    Note: I did not deliberately exclude ANY bad blocks. I just didn't find any in this sample of touchdown plays.
     
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  21. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Interesting that you like the Marshall QB. I wasn't sure if it was just competition and throwing to Hoskins, but I thought he made some really good throws. His accuracy was off on a small percentage of them, but the ball still got to the man. He's also really accurate on the move and improvising. At the risk of being called racist, he reminds me a bit of RGIII in college and it's not just the green unis. One thing I noted with RGIII coming out was just how pinpointed his throws were, especially throwing deep. I'm seeing a lot of similarities in this guy's game as far as ball location on deeper throws. I personally thought RGIII was at least the second best QB coming out in 2012 and in that first season that's how it looked.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    What I love about him is he's just such a polished receiver of the football, all the way around.

    He spots the football in the air very quickly and adjusts to the ball so well, so naturally. He times his jump and his hands really well as the ball comes in, which makes tight man coverage on him really difficult. A lot of players in tight man coverage will be looking for cues in order to time their pass breakup, either to get their head around so as to avoid the risk of a pass interference penalty, or to take the chance with their back turned and put up their hands to try and interfere with the catch. I've heard Michael Irvin talk about this, receivers have to learn the trick of timing their hands and the way they go up for the ball so that they aren't giving defenders the cues they need.

    When you put those two things together, the way he spots and adjusts to the ball and the way he is able to time his hands and jump, it makes him a very trustworthy target over the middle of the football field even if he's only 6'2".

    I think particularly if you fast-forward the video to 5:23 with the field level camera angle you can really see this in action.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cCYj-MPA9d8#t=323

    This is one of those balls where there could easily be a miscommunication between the quarterback and receiver. Hoskins doesn't know if Rakeem Cato is going to throttle him down (he shouldn't though), or maybe throw it low so he could dive for it, or maybe throw it out front. You see as Gator makes his break he turns around and slows up a bit to spot the ball which is already in the air. He spots it very quickly and recognizes that he needs to keep running through and dive to the ground for it, and that's what he does. It's a move that's pretty cool when you watch it a few times, especially as you notice the defender had grabbed and pulled his jersey around the shoulder just as Gator was making his break and so that brief slowdown was partly as a result of that. But he was able to recover, spot the football and adjust to exactly where it was going to be in only a split second.

    Those are the kinds of plays that get a quarterback trusting you. The Dwayne Allen plays, so to speak.

    I also keep saying this to people but it bears repeating. Pause the video before each play if you can and locate the down & distance graphic for each play. This is very important. He was a huge key for them on 3rd and 4th down, constantly. And if it wasn't 3rd or 4th down it was some key moment of the game or near the end zone.

    Everything about his passing game speaks of trust.
     
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  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think the RG3 comparison is a natural one and I won't fault you for it. But the differences between the two players are also telling, when you've watched as much of Rakeem Cato as I have (he was a favorite of mine all through 2013, I watched him nearly every week).

    1. He doesn't have as good a deep ball as RG3. This was a standout area of RG3's game. Cato is still developing so who knows what his deep ball looks like in 2014. Lord knows RG3 himself made a big jump from 2010 to 2011. But right now the deep ball isn't at the insane accuracy level that RG3's was at when he came out. That said, Cato has a very GOOD deep ball particularly because of the touch and arc he is able to get on the football. A big part of that is his shoulder aiming. He gets that front shoulder up consistently when he needs to put touch on the ball.

    2. He isn't as purely fast as RG3. I believe RG3 was timed in the 4.3's and you could see at least 4.4 type speed on the film. Rakeem Cato is very quick, agile, elusive, but not purely as fast. I'd estimate him somewhere in the 4.6's, though it's tough to say what would happen if he went through a big speed training regimen prior to the draft. I haven't gone through some of my usual methodologies to get an accurate gauge on Cato's speed, but the feel test tells me about in the 4.6 range.

    3. On the other hand, Rakeem Cato is WAY more willing to make smart decisions and avoid contact than RG3 ever was. You watch enough Rakeem Cato, you come to appreciate his decision making in so many ways...notably when it comes to avoiding the big hit. He will slide. He will run out of bounds. He knows where the 1st down marker is and if he's got enough yards to move the chains he isn't going to kill himself trying to get 3 or 4 more yards. If it's 1st or 2nd down and he's running for the 1st down marker and it's questionable whether he'll get it, he'll take his chunk of yards and then pull up to avoid the hit, live to see another day. This was one of my biggest complaints about RG3 and it's exactly what resulted in his 2013 downfall. Every college game you could put together a montage of hits RG3 took during the game and it would make any viewer squeamish. He wore it with a badge of pride, but I think that's stupid. Rakeem Cato and Russell Wilson have the same mentality when it comes to scrambling, avoiding the big hit, keeping eyes up the field looking for pass options.

    4. Some may disagree with this but I think Rakeem Cato sees more from the pocket than RG3 did in college. I definitely noticed a lot of instances where RG3 (like Manziel after him) would miss his timing based reads and move out of the pocket in order to get clear vision. That's part of why RG3 took a dive in 2013. His legs weren't there like he was used to and so he had to do more from the pocket, and he's really only kind of an average passer from the pocket. I think Rakeem Cato sees more and it might have something to do with his narrower base and eye level, the overall way he carries himself. He's always maximizing his height and his vision, because he's not focusing so much energy on making sure he can scramble at a moment's notice. This is similar to how Russell Wilson plays the game.

    Overall I would have to say that though Rakeem Cato LOOKS visually very much like RG3 in their body types, the way they carry themselves, their wristy delivery, etc...I would compare Rakeem Cato's playing style very closely to Russell Wilson. The big difference there is Russell Wilson had pro style experience. Also I don't really know much about Rakeem Cato off the field, in the locker room, etc...and that's a HUGE part of what makes Russell Wilson who he is.
     
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  24. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Interesting points. I made a very snap comparison only based on these videos. I definitely want to watch more of him now. Looking at pure numbers, his 2012 season was a legitimate top prospect's season while his 2013 was good college player, stat wise. The 10 percentage point decrease in completion percentage is particularly noteworthy. Did any big changes occur at Marshall? Was there an inordinate amount of drops or something? Or was it just simple regression? Either way, the guy interests me a lot after watching these videos and seeing those numbers.

    I just checked out his ratings but I'll leave what I already typed in. Interestingly, he was still very efficient with YPA of 7.85 and his rating actually went up slightly. If he gets back to that near 70% completion rating but continues at that efficiency level, he could seriously enter the first round lexicon IMO.
     
  25. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Wow, just watched a couple videos of the guy. All I can say is ball location. He masters some tight windows, hits guys in stride, plays the sidelines really well, and hits the soft spots in coverage a lot. And he doesn't leave players too open to big shots either. I'm definitely going to be watching him this upcoming season.
     
  26. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I'll be the first one to admit it -- as an FAU fan, I couldn't stand the man.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You alluded to it already. It was a matter of changing his depth focus. He was only getting 10.3 yards per completion in 2012, checking down a lot. In 2013 he got 13.1 yards per completion, making more of an effort to push the football down the field. Also there were some issues with the players outside of Gator Hoskins and Tommy Shuler.

    Keep in mind this season he also ran I believe 75 times for 464 yards and 6 TDs (not including sacks). In 2012 he only ran 29 times for 199 yards and 1 TD.

    He definitely got better in 2013, not worse. I would look for him to continue to improve.

    You'll notice that in 2010, Russell Wilson achieved only 58.6 percent completion with Wisconsin. His numbers really jumped in his final year.

    Here's a full game of Rakeem Cato's...his bowl game.

    [video=youtube;GyrUEZeD-MU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyrUEZeD-MU[/video]
     
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  28. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Thoughts: Clearly has arm talent, good escapability, feels pressure, can run, throws well on the move. At this point his deficiencies appear to be, in that video, mental. His decision making on some of those throws isn't the best. Too many "heroball" throws into double and triple coverage or congested areas where maybe his conscious effort to push the ball downfield hurt him. I expect a fair amount of that will go away in his fourth year playing the game at a collegiate level. The Terps are not world beaters, but they're not an easy out, especially not for Marshall. I give him credit for playing against legitimate competition there. He does well with his movement angles away from pressure and doesn't set himself up for a big hit. Sometimes he plays too fast though, and turns a developing play into a broken one which his improvisation skills allow him to do effectively anyway.

    Definitely needs some time, but I can definitely see him eeking out a 2-4th round grade easily and a 1st round grade if the games break the right way for him and he matures in his decision making.
     
  29. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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    A 188 lb QB from Marshall isn't getting drafted in the 1st round.
     
  30. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    It depends on what he does this season IMO. The NFL is susceptible to trends and if a shorter QB lights it up in college, you may have a team that doesn't want to make the Russell Wilson error again. I don't much like Manziel's game and I think him being drafted in the first round is part hype, part intervention by a higher up in Cleveland, and part not wanting his size concerns to potentially cause a replay of the Wilson scenario.

    But, I did say the games would have to really break in his favor. A great record on the season with him feasting on lesser competition and a solid bowl performance could make an needy and antsy team desperate.
     
  31. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    We need to go after Julius Thomas HARD in FA next offseason
     
  32. EverFin

    EverFin Active Member

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    Wow, it's not easy to tackle this dude and bring him down. On some plays he looks like a man among boys. Great ball security when he gets tackled seems to be another strength. Would love to get some surprising spark at TE.
     
  33. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You mean 58.6% at NC State, then jumped dramatically at Wisconsin where he made a huge jump to close to 73%. One thing that kid has in huge quantities is charisma.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    First off I doubt he's only 188 lbs.

    Second, who knows what his final grade will be. Much of it depends on how he plays in 2014.

    Prior to 2011, both Russell Wilson and Robert Griffin were graded as undraftable. That's not an exaggeration. Griffin was being evaluated as a wide receiver and Wilson as a UDFA. It bears repeating. Prior to their final year the #2 overall pick and the hottest young quarterback in the game today were both considered undraftable as quarterbacks. I'm sure many a message boarder such as yourself came on with their one-liners about how nobody is drafting a 5'11" quarterback like Russell Wilson on Day 2 or nobody is drafting a skinny running quarterback from a gimmicky Baylor offense in the 1st round.

    Really remains to be seen.
     
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  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    One thing I notice about many of the throws into coverage that you mention is that he threw the football down to the ground. He's a guy that sometimes doesn't see danger until he's already throwing the football. I've heard him talk about it. So he often scuttles the throw in mid-motion. I see a lot of pro quarterbacks do that as well.

    You'd like to see him do better than he did against Maryland in that game, but it wasn't his final year. The improvements he makes in 2014 will guide his stock.
     
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  36. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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    Rakeem Cato's weight is quoted as being anywhere from 181 lbs to 188 lbs. So when I quoted 188 lbs, I was quoting the high end.

    181 lbs: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/players/playerpage/1892460/rakeem-cato

    188 lbs: http://www.herdzone.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/rakeem_cato_767745.html

    188 lbs: http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/518267/rakeem-cato

    Russell Wilson (Wisconsin) played against much tougher opponents, set the single season FBS record for passing efficiency (191.8), and beat several top 25 college teams.

    RGIII (Baylor) played against much tougher opponents, had all the measurables, won the Heisman Trophy, and beat several top 25 college teams.

    Rakeem Cato plays at Marshall, at 188 lbs, and will likely end his college career never having beaten a top 25 college team.

    Rakeem Cato has way too many things going against him. Even if he has a stellar senior season, he's still a 188 lb QB from Marshall that never beat a top 25 team. He might go on to be successful in the NFL. But no NFL team is going to risk a 1st rd draft pick on him.
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes. I'm aware. And I doubt the listings are accurate. If he weighs in at the Combine and all that at 188 lbs I will be very surprised.

    You completely missed the point. Russell Wilson hadn't done any of those things until his FINAL year in college football. Rakeem Cato is heading into his FINAL year of college football. We don't know what Rakeem Cato will do in his FINAL year of college football, because he hasn't played it yet.

    Similarly, those things all happened in RG3's FINAL year of college football. What I said was 100% accurate. Prior to his FINAL year of college football, Robert Griffin was being rated as undraftable as a quarterback.

    Jake Locker was 2-9 against top 25 ranked teams. He went in the 1st round. And that 2nd win against a top 25 team only came in the bowl game of his final year. Marshall could very well play a top 25 team in their bowl game in 2014 and who knows if they'll win or not.

    Ben Roethlisberger was drafted 1st round out of Miami of Ohio. J.P. Losman and Patrick Ramsey went 1st round out of Tulane. Byron Leftwich went 1st round out of Marshall and so did Chad Pennington. Joe Flacco went 1st round out of Delaware. Blake Bortles went #3 overall from UCF.

    Tarvaris Jackson went 2nd round out of Alabama State. Kevin Kolb went 2nd round out of Houston. Colin Kaepernick went 2nd round out of Nevada. The Patriots took Jimmy Garoppolo 2nd round out of Eastern Illinois.

    Charlie Frye went 3rd round from Akron. Josh McCown went 3rd round out of Sam Houston State. Giovanni Carmazzi went 3rd round out of Hofstra. Kevin O'Connell went 3rd round out of San Diego State.
     
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  38. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Wow...

    I cant see Hoskins not playing in the NFL. Perhaps he doesnt make our team, but hes to damn talented not to catch passes somewhere.
     
  39. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I can easily see him going to New England and becoming Aaron Hernandez without the murders. When you have a QB like Brady, guys just play better.
     
  40. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    I like this kid but I find it so interesting everyone thinks Egnew will get cut. My question is what was Sherman's problem with using Egnew?? He didn't block in college and your trying to turn him into a blocking TE. The kid was tops in almost every category for TEs at the combine his year. Why didn't we every split him out into the slot and create a mismatch? Honestly baffles me. I actually think Egnew could be one of the biggest surprises this year in Lazor's offense. I hope Lazor uses him correctly and more like Jimmy Graham or Julius Thomas.
     

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