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Dion Jordan bust?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    75% of that list is not available at GNC or over the counter period, and they aren't mysteriously showing up in supplements bc they aren't legal (without a script).
     
  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    So you're saying that both Dion and his trainers intentionally made him fail the drug test? That would be a brilliant strategy...but that's not what happened.
     
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you'd better read that list again...or for the first time. There are various substances on there that you could buy at any WalMart, GNC or even your local gas station. And many of those substances are included in workout enhancers as energy boosters.
     
  4. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    More like got caught. You can take steroids that are out of your system in hours. Most people get caught on other drugs like anti estrogens and the like. Those drugs are usually out in days and players may not have enough of a heads up and get popped. It's not like he would have a choice not to piss if he was told.
     
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, I've been told otherwise by someone that has firsthand information. If you don't believe me, then fine, but I'm not going to argue the manufacturing process of amino acids and protien bars with you.
     
  6. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    I did before I posted. Just bc you don't know what the names are doesn't mean others don't, it's standard stuff and very controlled substances. Almost all the anabolic section is steroids not available anywhere short of from a doctor or Mexico. The others are Andro and DHEA, which are widely known as banned and famous from the MLB. Pretty much the entirety of the rest of the list is prescription stuff outside of the diuretics (which of course don't cause 20 lb muscle gain).
     
  7. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    I get you, I'll just remain extremely skeptical (no offense).
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  8. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Again, could you explain the bolded type. What substance has now been deemed "okay" for use by NFL players?

    I appreciate the link, but I have already gone over it. NOTHING on the list suggests it is difficult to comprehend. I am also well aware that, while the FDA regulates supplements, it is more of a hands off approach, only stepping in when something goes awry. Many of these companies slyly get to the shelves marketing themselves as "dietary supplements" (which, oddly, is regulated by the FTC). So the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. This is how these products get on the shelves.

    The problem arises when the FDA basically says that these companies are to supervise themselves in knowing what goes into their supplement.

    While I get that Jordan may have taken something unknowingly, he certainly did not come out and say this. Do you not think that ALL NFL players have been warned about supplements from stores like GNC? It would be assinine to think otherwise given the money that's invested into these guys. Imagine if Peyton Manning were suspended for the first four games of the season and how it would affect the Broncos?

    I understand Jordan may have made an honest mistake, but it seems as though you are making excuses for the guy. Who cares if the testing is more stringent than other organizations? It should not affect the guy who is doing the right thing. In this instance, Jordan did not. He, and his team, has to suffer the consequences.
     
  9. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    I believe you, but I still just have a difficult time thinking Jordan did not know what he was using.
     
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  10. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Sack and FF from the stat sheet.
     
  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    No, I wasn't trying to make excuses at all for Jordan. At the end of the day, he failed a drug test, and he's sitting on the bench for a month whether I gave any input or not. I was just trying to put it in perspective a little bit since people on page one were calling him a "drug addict". He didn't test positive for heroin or cocaine...

    What I was referencing earlier was that there are so many ingredients that go into "health supplements" and it can be difficult to see everything that's in there. Take this link, for example, to a multivitamin- http://www.gnc.com/graphics/product_images/pGNC1-7365112_gnclabel_pdf.pdf

    See towards the bottom of the ingredients where it says "Branch Chain Amino Acid Blend"? With many companies, that "blend" title is all that's necessary to add 15 more supplements like ephedrine, caffeine, and other stimulants. Again, this is just a multivitamin, so it's not nearly as complicated as some of the stuff out there. So, is it safe for NFL players to take? Remember, you guys said that it's super easy to know what's banned....so you should be able to give me a yes or a no within 2-3 seconds.

    Honestly, you don't have to answer...I was just making a point. It's fairly easy to violate the NFL drug policy by accident and I was told that Jordan was one of those cases. That's all- I'm not defending him or his choices for a moment.
     
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  12. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    Dude, BCAAs are a very specific thing (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branched-chain_amino_acid). It's most definitely NOT going to contain ephedrine, caffeine, or any other stimulants. You can choose to believe whatever source you want, but if you posted that list on the bodybuilding forums or many other fitness forums, everyone would know what the list is.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Well I've also been told what Jordan did to end up failing the drug test and I think if we're talking about all this stuff with GNC and tainted supplements, then we're barking up the wrong tree.
     
    Clark Kent likes this.
  14. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Good point!

    While I do know the list of banned substances is simple to comprehend, I was not aware that some companies use this ruse to hide potential substances that otherwise would deem them "illegal".

    To show you how semmingly lax the FDA is on these things; a while back, I read about a guy who manufactured a popular supplement containing a steroid. THAT particular supplement was pulled from shelves, and the guy was fined I believe. Anyway, this nitwit essentially marketed a similar supplement a while later under a different name. It's all a game of wording and legalities.

    If I am not mistaken, the FDA may become more stringent on regulating supplements very soon because of the potential risks.
     
  15. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    He was never placed on injured reserve last season. He played in all 16 games.
     
  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You do know what a multivitamin is, right? It is the combination of several things that the manufacturer deems necessary. The only reason I brought up the amino acids is that it was the first of three things that ended with "blend". That means all the ingredients aren't listed...which your bodybuilding friends on the fitness forums can tell you. I didn't say that amino acids contain ephedrine...it was just an example so everyone could understand the point.
     
  17. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, it was just an example. Knowing how the FDA "regulates" these things, I could see how a supplement could get onto store shelves with similar wording.
     
  18. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Oh please do not make me ask!

    Whaddya know???

    (Damnit! I asked!)

    Totally kidding, btw. Sorta....
     
  19. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    And I'm saying your example is poor. It says blend but then says right under it what exactly is in it... Valine, Leucine, Isoleucine. The blend part just means the concentration isn't listed. All the blends there show exactly what substance is there.

    is it possible some shady companies are out there with unknown ingredients? Sure, but more likely they are filling with placebos and you don't gain 20 pounds in 2 months.
     
  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of people here are talking about two very different things. Some of the things on that list are illegal steroids, and some are 100% legal, over the counter supplements. I am not saying that GNC puts illegal steroids in their protein bars, nor am I saying that any company is breaking the law. I am saying that there are legal supplements that the NFL bans, and some of those items are added in health products. That's it.
     
  21. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You would think that, and in this particular case you may be correct. Do a little bit of research though and you'll be surprised at what the FDA doesn't regulate. Here is a start-

    http://www.wfsb.com/story/25464870/...ents-may-contain-dangerous-hidden-ingredients


    And so you know, anything in the bodybuilding industry falls under "dietary supplements."
     
  22. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    I understand that very well. Every player always wants to say they unknowingly took something. You can choose to believe them if you wish. I'm also taking into account that Dion looks like a different person in one offseason, and that doesn't happen if u take something from GNC in my experience.
     
  23. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    While I get your point on hiding particular substances under some other wording, the likelihood that those "hidden" substances are an anobolic steroid are pretty high.

    I have not read the list in a while, but those "legal" substances I think you are referring to usually require a prescription. There are some very common OTCs than can show up as something entirely different when metabolized (e.g., amphetamines) and a drug screen is taken, but there are variables.

    I think if we knew exactly what he tested positive for, we could surmise one way or the other....
     
  24. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    What's the difference between excuses and reasons in your mind? Really, I'm honestly asking? At what point does logic and reason cross the line and become an excuse.

    Is surgery w/four months of recovery an excuse or a logical reason to stop lifting heavy weights?
    Is surgery w/four months of recovery and re-aggravation of the injury an excuse or a logical reason to be limited in camp and preseason?

    If you answered, "a logical reason" for the two questions above (and please tell me you did...), then how is Dion Jordan's rookie campaign be the result of an "excuse." He was undersized and inexperienced as a result of missed time. That's logical. And reasonable. And it's why nobody can say, "Dion Jordan is a bust." The point of this entire thread.

    It's not uncommon to see pro bowl veterans skip most of camp and struggle to produce and play consistently throughout the course of the season. Yet, Dion Jordan misses four months of workout time and is limited throughout camp because of injury and you're suggesting he should of been an impact player, even despite being an inexperienced rookie Do you seriously not see disconnect?

    P.S. Gerald McCoy. We just played him tonight. One of the best DT's in the league. Drafted 3rd overall back in 2010. For three years, fans and media alike were down on him after his first three seasons. He was referenced as a "bust" after failing to live up to "expectations." Year 4? Dominant. Has completely changed the narrative ad is now considered a premier DT. Player development isn't a myth. I can you more examples, if you want.

    That's understandable. Vernon is further along in his development. Jordan is really only just starting to learn and develop pash rush moves this past off-season. Which makes sense because...

    A). It's the first off-season he's had.
    B). He's only just moved to DE full-time this season.


    And your assumption would be wrong. See above. It's about development at this point.
     
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  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    If I knew, I'd tell you....but I have no idea other than it's not being treated like a big deal.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    trainers know what shouldn't go in, if they don't they shouldn't be employed, players will go behind their back..
     
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  27. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I think we'll really know what we have in him in his third year... he might not be a superstar talent but he might still be a good player, though that's not what we traded for..
     
  28. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I think people need to realize at DE you won't see a sack every game from Dion. If you did...that would be 16 on the year making him elite.

    What I really want to see is consistent pressure. Make the QB throw before he is ready or flush him to someone else.
     
  29. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    Yet so many of us, took so much abuse when we wanted him gone.....
     
  30. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    Yep a Jeffy Ireland special.....
     
  31. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    But this is the problem with drafting Jordan. The 49'ers could afford to draft him - they are already there and can get players to "develop". Miami can't afford that because we need to draft players that can play NOW and contribute NOW.

    So as far as Miami is concerned, so far this pick has been a bust. We moved up to the 3rd pick in the draft dude - THIRD - and we've so far seen very little to nothing for our investment.

    Ireland swung and missed.....bottom line. This is why you don't let Ireland stay that extra year and use all those assets we had last year.
     
    pumpdogs likes this.
  32. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I'll always compare Dion Jordan to Clowney because of where they were selected..
     
  33. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Not sure that is fair. I mean...would you compare Alex Smith to Manning because they were both #1 overall guy? I get what you are saying but some drafts just have better talent at the top at certain positions.
     
  34. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Jordan was so unimpressive last night. I've all but given up hope.

    Against a bad Bucs OL, and an even worse back up bucs OL. Even at the end against guys that will be bagging groceries in a week. Move him to Sam and get on with it.
     
  35. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I totally agree with you. Some people want us to sit around for three or four years and wait to see if the third pick in the 2013 NFL draft can become a solid player or not.

    As you stated, the Dolphins need their top draft picks to come in and make an impact immediately. They just don't have enough talent on the roster to waste high draft picks on players who may become a quality player at about the same time he becomes a free agent and takes his talents to another team.

    The only way to turn around a team which has been a consistent loser for several years is to draft young talent which doesn't take years to develop. Unfortunately that is what many Dolphin fans are willing to accept and that is also why the Dolphins have remained a mediocre team for more than a decade.

    Ireland's top two pick last years were players who came to the team with injury issues and neither of them were able to come in and provide the impact expected from players drafted in the first two rounds the draft. Also based on the play of the third round draft pick Dallas Thomas, so far it appears that this looks like another wasted early round pick by Ireland.

    A couple of years ago, many people believed that the Jets were on the decline and the Bills were just a hapless team going nowhere. They figured that the Dolphins would be the team to challenge the Patriots for the division over the coming years.

    Of course the Jets, who many individuals on this forum predicted prior to last season would have the top pick in the 2014 draft, actually finished ahead of the Dolphins in the AFC standings in 2013.
    The Bills totally outplayed the Dolphins in the games they played against one another last year.

    So now many experts are predicting that the Dolphins will finish last in the AFC East this year. The is basically because the Jets and Bills have done a superior job in selecting players in the draft and in free agency in recent years. They actually drafted players who came in and contributed immediately.

    Sheldon Richardson of the Jets was the NFL rookie defensive player of the year. Kiko Alonso was an immediate starter for the Bills at the LB position and he was right behind Richardson in rookie defensive player of the year balloting.

    The fans of the Dolphins, instead of getting quality play from their high draft picks last year, were told that their top picks were injured when they were drafted and that it would take a few years to determine if these players would actually become productive players in the NFL.

    I guess we don't have to wonder why this organization has continued to decline when it has draft picks and free agent signings like it had while Ireland was in charge of personnel decisions. Hopefully Hickey can prove to be a major upgrade over Ireland.

    Tannehill may prove to be a quality QB in the NFL, but I still think it is going to take at least two more quality drafts before this team becomes a legitimate playoff contender.
     
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  36. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Did you see the Club Thread? If not, you should check it out.
     
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  37. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Don't worry, some people on here have told me that he is going to be a great player in another two or three years. We just have to give him time to develop. I just hope that he can do that developing on another team. Perhaps the Dolphins can still get a fourth or fifth round pick for him. Because the more he plays poorly in the preseason against players who won't even be on an NFL roster when the season starts, the less value he has in a trade.
     
  38. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I totally agree with you. Some people want us to sit around for three or four years and wait to see if the third pick in the 2013 NFL draft can become a solid player or not.

    As you stated, the Dolphins need their top draft picks to come in and make an impact immediately. They just don't have enough talent on the roster to waste high draft picks on players who may become a quality player at about the same time he becomes a free agent and takes his talents to another team.

    The only way to turn around a team which has been a consistent loser for several years is to draft young talent which doesn't take years to develop. Unfortunately that is what many Dolphin fans are willing to accept and that is also why the Dolphins have remained a mediocre team for more than a decade.

    Ireland's top two pick last years were players who came to the team with injury issues and neither of them were able to come in and provide the impact expected from players drafted in the first two rounds the draft. Also based on the play of the third round draft pick Dallas Thomas, so far it appears that this looks like another wasted early round pick by Ireland.

    A couple of years ago, many people believed that the Jets were on the decline and the Bills were just a hapless team going nowhere. They figured that the Dolphins would be the team to challenge the Patriots for the division over the coming years.

    Of course the Jets, who many individuals on this forum predicted prior to last season would have the top pick in the 2014 draft, actually finished ahead of the Dolphins in the AFC standings in 2013.
    The Bills totally outplayed the Dolphins in the games they played against one another last year.

    So now many experts are predicting that the Dolphins will finish last in the AFC East this year. The is basically because the Jets and Bills have done a superior job in selecting players in the draft and in free agency in recent years. They actually drafted players who came in and contributed immediately.

    Sheldon Richardson of the Jets was the NFL rookie defensive player of the year. Kiko Alonso was an immediate starter for the Bills at the LB position and he was right behind Richardson in rookie defensive player of the year balloting.

    The fans of the Dolphins, instead of getting quality play from their high draft picks last year, were told that their top picks were injured when they were drafted and that it would take a few years to determine if these players would actually become productive players in the NFL.

    I guess we don't have to wonder why this organization has continued to decline when it has draft picks and free agent signings like it had while Ireland was in charge of personnel decisions. Hopefully Hickey can prove to be a major upgrade over Ireland.

    Tannehill may prove to be a quality QB in the NFL, but I still think it is going to take at least two more quality drafts before this team becomes a legitimate playoff contender.
     
    ASOT likes this.
  39. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Ya...'cuz we have a choice who they draft...sure.

    Whether you "accept" it or not, it happened. WTF are you supposed to do to change it, get a job in the Dolphins FO?
     
    DPlus47 likes this.
  40. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Also beyond the third round..how many guys make enough of an immediate impact that you -must- draft them. People need to realize we arent the only team not getting immediate starters from the 4th round on every single year.
     

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