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Dion Jordan bust?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    In my opinion, Dion is every bit the athlete Clowney is... but as I said on the day we traded up (thought we were trading up for Lane), Dion Jordan was a PART TIME player in Oregon, the guy didn't play all the snaps, his athleticism stood out big time, just like Ronnie Brown's athleticism stood out in the combines... but he was hardly creating havoc on the field... sure he had some impact plays but not enough to be drafted that high.... I just don't think you target a player heavily based on athleticism and analyzing his impact if he were to play more snaps.... we don't even know if he can handle a full time amount of snaps..

    Still rooting for DJ... I think he can potentially be Jason Taylor... but he needs a Zach Thomas to lead him the way..
     
  2. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I'm not arguing that it happened. My point is that many Dolphin fans have become so used to the Dolphins drafting players early in the draft who don't come in and make an impact, they just accept waiting for these top draft picks to hopefully develop over a few years is the way things are done throughout the NFL.

    Obviously I have to accept how bad a GM Ireland was. That has been proven out over time. It is also the reason the Dolphins have remained a mediocre team for so long. I also agree that we have no choice but to deal with the players they draft, since they are making the decision and not us.

    That doesn't mean that I have to agree with the decision as a long time fan of the team. That is why I feel the Dolphins should cut their losses and try to trade Jordan, while he still might have some trade value. I don't see him as being any better than the other back up DE's on the roster at this time, but other teams in the league might be willing to give the Dolphins something for him.

    Some people seem willing to wait another couple of years to see how he develops. I don't feel that way because I just don't see that he is all that special as an NFL DE.

    Forums like this are places where we can come on and express our views regarding the team and the players on it. I understand that the players were selected by those in charge of the personnel department of the Dolphins and the coaches. I don't need to work in the FO to have an opinion on the team or the players on the team.

    We all on here express our opinions all the time. I really don't care if someone agrees with me or not. As a Dolphins fan, it is merely my view I am expressing. I respect the views of everyone on this forum, even if I might not agree with them on an issue being discussed. Opposing points of view is what makes this forum interesting to me. If everyone on here always agreed on every topic discussed, there would be no reason to have a forum in the first place.
     
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  3. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Who exactly is writing about the players drafted in the fourth round or later becoming immediate starters?

    I know that I was only referring to Jordan, Taylor, and Thomas in reference to their lack of an impact in 2013. The last I checked, they were all taken in the first three rounds of the draft and not in the fourth round or later.

    I agree that any player taken in the later rounds of the draft, 4th through 7th, should be expected to be a project and it will take them time to develop. That is basically why they weren't drafted in the early rounds of the draft to begin with. Every once in a while, one of the late round draft picks will come in and become an immediate starter, (Zack Thomas), but we expect them to be developmental players when they are drafted in the later rounds.

    That is not the case with players taken in the first two rounds and even in the third round. For a team to have success on a regular basis, early draft picks have to come in and make an impact in their rookie season. Other than Pouncey, the Dolphins haven't really had a high draft pick come in and make any major impact as a rookie in the past five years.

    This lack of impact players in the draft is the reason I think the Dolphins have remained a mediocre team over that same period of time.
     
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  4. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I'll agree some picks have been bad, but for your argument to hold water you'd need to show that we miss those picks at a higher rate than anyone else.

    Also if Will Davis comes on strong this season does it matter that he didn't play last year? Does it hurt us somehow? As long as you get production in year two and beyond it's a good pick. If Dion Jordan plays well after his suspension will you hate the pick because of his first year?
     
  5. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    A great athlete doesn't always equate to being a great football player. I agree that Jordan may be equal to Clowney on an athlete level. I just don't think Jordan is Clowney's equal on a football field.

    My view is that if Clowney remains healthy, he will end up in the Hall of Fame. Jordan on the other hand will probably end his career being seen as a player who never achieved the success many thought he would as an NFL player.

    I hope Jordan proves me wrong, but so far, I just don't get the hype over him as a football player.
     
  6. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    I hear ya, and I know you want them to be great too, I guess I just look at "accepting" it differently. I don't accept the angle that Jordan was worth what we used to pick him, but there's not a lot my not "accepting" it will do, I can only hope he gets his stuff together, and the coaches use him right. Ya it's frustrating...
     
  7. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    All I have to do to prove my point is to look at the teams record over the time Ireland was the teams GM. The Dolphins had a sub 500 winning record over that 6 year period. Obviously there were other teams which also had sub 500 winning record over those same number of years, so you can say the Dolphins were as effective in the player personnel department as these other losing teams.

    I acknowlede that, but that certainly isn't something I am jumping for joy over.

    Perhaps I just expect more from an organization which was seen as one of the top organizations in the NFL during the first 30 plus years it was a member of the NFL. Now it seems we are content to compare this organizations with other organizations, who accept mediocrity as the norm.

    Am I spoiled as someone who started attending games in 1966 and saw the glory years of this franchise? Your damn right I am and that is why the acceptance by so many younger Dolphins fans of mediocrity, years after years is just not acceptable to me.

    It is obvious that the better organizations in the league over the past decade have done a far better jobs in selecting talent in the draft and in free agency. That is why they are in the playoffs on a fairly regular basis. They also have had better coaching and better individuals running their organization, from the ownership on down.

    Just because mediocre is acceptable to many people on this forum doesn't mean it's acceptable to me. Because I assure you, it isn't.
     
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  8. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Glad to see we can come to some type understanding. I just want to add that I am nearly 20 years older than you are. So basically you have the time on your side to be patient and wait to see if these young players develop. Obviously I have no choice but to also wait and see how they develop, but at may age I would love to see it happen sooner and not later.

    I would like to think that I will get another opportunity to see this team become a serious SB contender in my lifetime. Of course I have felt this way since they last appeared in the SB in 1985. The last 29 years have come and gone quickly and it just appears every Dolphin season in recent years as been a rebuilding season. I'm getting too old for more rebuilding and I'm waiting for a time where the team is actually rebuilt and is a legitimate SB contender again.

    I just hope this happens before I become worm food. :yes:
     
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  9. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Having a losing record doesn't mean that other teams had more immediate impact from draft picks. Aside from that I don't really disagree. I'd also say that a QB goes a long way. Some of those teams had winning records over that period simply due to the guy under center.
     
  10. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Nobody develops at the same pace. Player development is a process. The length are which are dependent on any number variables. If NFL teams followed your guidelines, GB would of given up on 1st round pick Aaron Rodgers after three years of bench warming and a couple of terrible preseasons. Drew Brees? First three seasons were very bad. Dez Bryant had trouble learning the offense and didn't produce for 2.5 seasons. Finally emerging in the second half of year 3. Gerald McCoy would of been sent to the glue factory because he couldn't stay healthy. And when he was? Not very good for 3 straight seasons.

    Perhaps you want a more recent example. An example you can relate to, as a Miami Dolphins fan. Vontae Davis. Cutting our loses with a former overall #1 pick worked out tremendously well... For Indianapolis. The "three year" evaluation rule has become the standard for a reason. Player development isn't a mythical concept that Dolphins fans are making up, try as hard as you might to project that onto us.

    You don't like DJ? fine. You're not happy with DJ's development? Fine. You don't think his current position is right for him? Fine. You're welcome to feel all of the above. Just stop pretending that those who don't agree with you are delusional for not wanting to cut loose a freakish athlete because he hasn't become the player YOU want him to be, on YOUR timetable.
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Jmo, with his frame, he has the genetics where any wight gain is going to distribute symmetrically, so I'm pretty sure that if he did put on 20 to 25lbs, if the suspension is not from ped's, then probably only 3 to 5 lbs is pure lean muscle and the rest is just extra weight..probably why his get off looks slow, and why he doesn't look as quick, his body is carry unnecessary weight just as I suspected..also watch the one coverage snap on the tight end, usually you will see Dion smother that with great low technique, he looked slow and clumsy..

    It's all speculation on my part with my eyes but from what I thought initially, unfortunately it looks to be accurate..I don't think he put on 20lbs of muscle, I think it's just empty weight weighing him down.
     
  12. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I agree that 275 is too big for him. I'd much rather he stay in the 250-260 range. He's played at 230lbs range most his career. The extra 45lbs load isn't going to do him any favors. Jason Taylor played most of his career at 245 (listed by the team at 260). The team should of let him be. And I'm 100% positive DJ was using steroids.

    *Based on my estimates of Jordan: using 270lbs in case the 275 number was slightly inflated*

    - DJ was around 7-8% body fat coming into the NFL by my estimation.
    - Let's say he started at 250 (which I think was his combine weight).
    - 250lbs with 8% BF is: 230lbs muscle vs. 20lbs fat

    - If DJ weights 270lbs (+20lbs) now...
    - 5lbs/20lbs were lean muscle.
    - DJ's current body fat would 13/14%.
    - 270lbs with 13% BF is: 235lbs muscle vs. 35lbs fat.

    There is no way, DJ is currently 13%-14% bodyfat, IMO. Not even close. I still suspect he's about 9-10% BF at absolute worse...
    - 270lbs w/10% BF, DJ would be 243lbs muscle and 24lbs fat.

    ***Warning, 100% speculation, I have zero evidence to support this next comment as it related to Dion Jordan***
    If he was juicing, we'll know by the end of the season because he will be noticeably smaller, as he will have lost some of those gains. And if he was juicing a I suspect, I'm wondering if he's experiencing the side effects of ending the cycle. While juicing, natural testosterone stops being produced by the body since it's being supplemented synthetically. When coming off a cycle, the natural production of test starts up again, usually low and gradually builds itself up. A common side effect of low test is sluggishness and lack of energy. Which is why body builders often supplement with ... other "products" after ending a steroid cycle, to speed up natural production to normal levels. I'm sure those too are banned by the NFL lol. Given how well he was performing in camp compared to recently, I could see that being an issue for the time being. Along with adjusting to his new size, while losing some new found strength. It's not a permanent issue. He very well may be adjusted by week 5. If he stays off the juice, he may keep some of gains and return to his natural size. For which he should stay, IMO.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Clark, I don't think he took steroids, its all I can say..
     
  14. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    B. U. S. T. They didn't need a Defensive End (Lane Johnson) and they surely didn't need to trade up and burn a 2nd rounder to select a Defensive End, when they could have stayed put and taken the best Defensive End in the draft.(Jarvis Jones) He'll never crack Vernon or Wake, so put the bum at Linebacker, where all the bums on this defense reside.
     
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  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with a lot of what you said, I too don't think they should of fu@&ed with his body, it was perfect as is, all he needed was a good shoulder to do some offseason training and gain 5lbs of good muscle and we'd be all good, and btw, with that extra 5 and a good shoulder he would be just fine playin the reps at def end they wanted, I think they misread the injury and thought it was a lack of strength, and I don't think they knew he reinjured it against Cleveland..

    What makes me angry is the strength and conditioning staff, they've got to be able to assess his genetics, his body fat ratio, his frame, his hips and waist, his original strength numbers, how much the injury hampered his original strength, and give the coaches a proper projection..

    It really sounds as though it went something like this..

    Coaches..." He's not strong enough to set the edge playing def end, can we get him to add weight and strength?"

    Trainers.." Yes coach."

    Trainers to Dj.... Here is your new caloric intake chart, you eat we'll take care of the rest...

    Another thing for Dion Jordan, I will put money on the analysis that Dion Jordan has a very hard time gaining weight, I'm pretty sure if he didn't take steroids he had to eat an inordinate amount of food to get up to 270...

    Which is just all stupid stupid stupid..

    On top of this, do these coaches not look at how this player thrived in college at the weight he did, why turn your back on all that beautiful movement..

    My last hope is that they recognize he is lethargic, and will tell him to drop the weight in the next 5 weeks.
     
  16. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Why is it all you can say? I'd love to hear your theory (publicly or PM) if you disagree. I can't see any evidence that supports DJ's "stimulant" comments and plenty to suggest juice.
     
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  17. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    Bingo.....nail.hit.head.
     
  18. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    Well all we'd have to show is at least ½ the teams getting 1 (ONE) player in the 1st three rounds that is a player to match what the Dolphins have done. I don't have time or patience to do that, but I am guessing off hand that, it's not unreasonable to expect that to be the case, and that the Dolphins are probably in the lower 3rd of NFL teams finding talent in the top 3 rounds in the last 7 drafts.

    You cannot become an elite team with a draft record like that. This is not baseball where you can just spend your way to the playoffs every year (ala Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox) but have to be smarter and use your resources wisely (ala Oakland A's) to maximize your potential.

    Finally at least it's becoming evident, even to his most ardent supporters, that Jeff Ireland was a horrendous GM and I really do feel vindicated for all the abuse myself and others took, when we sounded the "Dump Jeffy" posts as early as 2010.
     
  19. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    You including this most recent draft?
     
  20. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Says Jarvis Jones was the best defense end in 2013 draft... Played OLB (3-4) in college. Makes sense. Smart.

    [​IMG]
























































    *Tank Carradine was the best true DE in 2013.
     
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  21. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    Actually I wasn't and misspoke....that should be just the Jeffy Ireland era. I think Hickey could have hit on at least 2 of his 3 first three picks. Landry looks really good......I am SO excited about what he will bring.

    It's so nice to finally have a GM that doesn't make me embarrassed or want to pull my hair out (what little I have left).
     
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  22. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I'm sure he did have to eat a ton no matter what. A 6'6" 250lbs man, at 10% bodyfat, and leading an extremely active lifestyle, would have to eat approximately 4900 calories to maintain that weight. A "fast or slow" metabolism is more myth than reality. No human has more than a few % points faster of a metabolism than another. A dirty bulk is considered 500 or more calories a day. I imagine NFL players do +1,000-+1,200 calories per day. DJ probably ate 6,000-7,000 per day. Jelly as **** right now.



    Drop weight? He has very little body fat to drop. Impossible. The weight he loses will come from muscle. Which should re-balance everything soon enough.
     
  23. 72 Dolphins

    72 Dolphins New Member

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    Aye, give Hickey some credit, if he didn't hit with the players and I think he might have more hits than misses, atleast the guy knew what positiions needed addressed. That right there is one up from Ireland.
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If he didn't do ped's, if he is at 270, then he has weight to drop..all 20 to 25lbs is not muscle.
     
  25. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    I absolutely think it is juice. As an experienced lifter for more than 35 years, I know what the human body is and isn't capable of, and being an already well conditioned athlete, who has been training for at least 10 years himself, Jordan is not going to put on 20 lbs of "muscle" in a 12 month period of time, with out PED's. It's extremely difficult to put on 2-3 lbs of pure muscle a year if you are a conditioned "natural" athlete, even at his age, when his natural testosterone is at it's peak effectiveness.

    NO FREAKIN' WAY someone puts on 20 lbs of "muscle" in a year, unless they have had help, and that help isn't the caffeine in his pre-workout or a Red Bull afterwards.

    GIVE ME A BREAK.
     
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  26. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    My thoughts exactly.
     
  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    No offense, but I have to call BS to that one. There is a huge difference in metabolism rates and like others have said, it is linked to testosterone, fitness levels, diet and mainly how active you are. I'm currently reading John Romaniello's book Engineering the Alpha and it disproves a lot of those types of myths through science and real-world results. I've just started the workouts and they are RIDICULOUS, but it's one heck of a program for boosting your testosterone and melting off fat.
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree on the amount of muscle one can gain when they already have the ratio Jordan has..

    First off,we don't actually know what he weighed last year or what he weighs this year, we can eyeball it but we don't know how much he gained.

    2nd, there is a good chance he did not do steroids, if he didn't, yet he put on 20 lbs, then the weight is not good weight, this is my point and why it looks like he's lost some quickness and get off..
     
  29. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I've heard that some people can gain muscle at the drop of a hat. Check out Elliot Hulse's channel StrengthCamp on Youtube. Tall and lanky people are probably not the types able to put on 20 pounds of muscle in a year without help. Vernon looks like he might have the body type to do it though.
     
  30. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    And it wasn't even a 12 month period claim, the offseason was only about 5 months and then claims were made that since the end of last season he has added 18-20 lbs of lean muscle mass.. that's not natural unless you're a teenager since teenagers have roaring testosterone..
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I didn't realize there were so many Human Biologists on this board.
     
  32. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    If you wish to add into the conversation with a rebuttal go ahead, but to divert facts by making a silly "human biologist" weak attack which is just as ridiculous as calling someone an "arm chair GM" in a message board, clearly means you have absolutely nothing to add to this thread and you shouldn't post in it.

    If you care, do your research, check bb forums and all 8 million of their members (some of them certified trainers/doctors) will tell you the same. It is not natural nor legitimate for a 24 year old to gain 20 lbs of lean muscle mass in a 4-5 month period without the use of HGH/steroids, fact.
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is drivin me nuts..2 scenarios.

    1)if he did take steroids and got to 270 = he would look explosive as hell.

    2) if he didn't take steroids but got to 270 with bad weight= Slow get off, non explosive, lethargic.

    I'll take #2.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Your thoughts on if he didn't take steroids and got to 270?
     
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    No on in the NFL who has been drafted in the first round has a natural body.

    The "attack" is as weak as your, " It is not natural nor legitimate for a 24 year old to gain 20 lbs of lean muscle mass in a 4-5 month period without the use of HGH/steroids, fact."

    Show me the study. Show me how one of the best athletes in the world isn't able to add 15 lbs of muscle without illegal steroids.

    This isn't a regular human. It isn't regular human money. It isn't like has a day job.
     
  36. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Nothing personal but I hate when people say things like this. We live in an age where many people who aren't trained professionals

    Nikola Tesla didnt have a degree. Bet he knew nothing about science.

    The Wright Brothers had minimal education, they built a friggen flying machine.

    And that was way back before so much self learning could be done through various sources. I mean...I guess CK is a hack too since he isn't a pro scout.
     
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  37. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    We don't even know when he actually failed the test do we? It could have happened months before it was released to the public so maybe he's already going through the "down" post PED phase.
     
  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Yes but those trained professionals say things that are backed up by evidence.

    Nikola Tesla didn't just say, "I can create the biggest lightning bolt!"

    The Wright Brothers didn't go on a Miami Dolphins Message board and say, "We can fly!"

    CK also posts a lot of pictures and will point out video.

    So nothing personal, but your pet peeve has nothing to do with what I said.
     
  39. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We dont even know if the failed test was actual PED's or something else that falls under the PED label..

    That's why we have to look at this with our eyes, and my eyes tell this is not weight or movement from steroids, it's just Dion eating a crap load of food for 5 months and working out hard..
     
  40. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    It had everything to do with what I said. Your issue seems to be that they didn't provide enough detailed analysis to go with their opinions based on your reply. However your first posts stated nothing like that.

    You simply said
    This implies (through sarcasm) that only a human biologist has the right (or better word perhaps would be knowledge) to comment on whether it is possible to do what Dion did weight wise. If that isn't what you meant....no problem, but it is what was implied.
     

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