We'll have to see if Vern has indeed taken Another step In play, if so, then no way do I take him off the field, not when I have a perfectly built Sam linebacker at my disposal who can explode in all directions, has incredible length and range, can tackle sideline to sideline, rush the passer, and at 6'7 with long *** arms cover and move like a big corner and a real linebacker ..my way gets all payers on the field together..which should be the objective if the skillsets meet the positions requirements..and a 250lb Dion Jordan certainly does that.. Seriously, what if Vern keeps evolving Ro? You know this dude is only 23 years old and is probably the strongest players on the team...if he does improve no way does your plan make sense to me.
Why would I agree with that when I think Dion should be playing linebacker..they both can play outside linebacker in a 43
I'll be honest, I think with the way the scheme works, his development is somewhat capped given that Cameron Wake's better at rushing from the left side, and is a better overall player when he's playing on the open side of the formation. As we saw last year, OV struggled a lot when playing the closed side (see Anthony Castonzo own him in week 2). IMO, if Miami can get Dion Jordan to continue his development at end, based on how they've played him, I think it makes the whole defense better as it allows Wake to continue playing on the open side of the formation. I've already stressed why I don't think Dion Jordan would be a good fit as a full-time LB so I'm not going to rehash it. I think he's more valuable as a DE who can also play specialized roles in sub-packages.
Dio likely is Wakes' replacement down the road. Always easier and cheaper to find Dlinemen than 4 good linebackers I'm amped to see what McCain can do this weekend, esp with Wheeler nicked
I think you'd be at a severe disadvantage stopping the run if that's the case. You'd end up with OV playing the open side with Wake on the closed side of the formation, where his run defense dipped last year as Disgustipate has pointed out. Plus you'd have two long, lanky players on the edge. I'm not entirely convinced of McCain's ability to set the edge just yet - need to see more of him. As for Jordan, I think he'd be good at it, but I think he carries more value as a DE plus a sub-package player in specialized roles. If you put him at SAM exclusively, I think matchups would dictate that he's more of a coverage player, and to me, that's a misuse of him, and it just devalues him as a 3rd overall pick. I don't think he's Von Miller, regardless of his athleticism. To me, the weight issues is somewhat irrelevant as I think he's probably shed or will shed some weight between now and week 6 when he's back, so I don't think it'll effect his movement much. To me, his pass-rush issues appear to be more of a lack of technique, moves, counter-moves than him looking lethargic. His burst off the ball didn't look all that great, but he's so long he's still able to get himself into position to get around the tackle...but that's when his hands stop working/working in conjunction with his feet. That's when tackles are able to force him wide because he's got no inside move or counter-move. His pass-rush looks like he's still coming in without a plan, and if you're moving him to SAM, he's basically lining up with a an extra yard of distance to cover to get to the QB if he's rushing, which at this stage is going to make it easier for an offensive tackle than it is for Dion Jordan...until Dion develops moves, counter moves, etc. The best DE and pass-rusher Miami has is the same player, Cameron Wake. IMO, Dion's abilities on the edge against the run are just as good if not better than Olivier Vernon's based on what we saw this preseason, so if you can get him more snaps there PLUS being able to move him around on 3rd downs, I think it's more valuable to the whole defense at this point; perhaps it changes once he's an accomplished pass-rusher. To me, that still allows you to use Vernon as an interior player, both standing up and rushing from a 3-point stance in 3 down lineman packages, and also rotating him in as necessary. Again, he may not be a "starter", but I think he's going to play a LOT of snaps in that role. We'll see what happens once Jordan returns from suspension.
I see Jordan as a luxury insurance policy for Coyle, with Vernon and Wake he has no clear role, and kicking OV inside just means less snaps for Odie and Starks in passing situations Meanwhile what he does do well is Cover Te's, which puts him into the Manny Lawson zone, tho I do think he is a much more explosive pass rusher. Which then brings up McCain, who is a purely explosive player, able to get up the field and bend the edge AND chase down plays from the backside, I'm really thrilled he made the team.
your saying he's capped out at 23? With that dudes work ethic, if he continues to improve on his talent, he will be fine holding that position, which leaves us with the only logical choice to get max value and talent on the field, is Dion at Sam..
I'd cite that last year, especially down the stretch Miami played a lot of 3-down linemen formations in sub-packages, mostly consisting of Vernon, Starks/Odrick, and Wake. Due to having mainly 3 DTs active last year, that rotation helped out a bit. Then, once they started going to the speed packages with Jordan, OV, Shelby, and Wake as a 4-man line, it helped keep Starks and Odrick fresh. IMO, that makes them somewhat like Seattle last year in that they can send waves of pass-rusher after the QB and keep guys fresh depending on the formation. I hope that when Jordan comes back he's still playing on the edge as well as he did this preseason against the run. IMO, as I've stated, I think that helps out Cameron Wake having Jordan out there in base packages and packages with 2 DEs and 2 DTs on the field as it allows Wake to play on the open side; Jordan appears, to me, to be more effective than OV in that regard. If Jordan develops more pass-rush prowess, then that's gravy. I think OV's sack number of 11.5 has a lot of people overrating just how effective he is. Those sacks came in bunches, and he wasn't particularly efficient on a consistent basis throughout the year. He's a good player to be sure and he definitely deserves a role, but IMO, the sooner Dion Jordan supplants him (while we have Wake still), the better the overall defense will be.
Not at all, where did I say that? As we saw last year in that capacity he got his @$$ handed to him by Anthony Castonzo. Anthony Castonzo. He didn't fare well in that role, yet due to Wake's being a left-side player, OV's somewhat handcuffed to that spot. I don't see how Dion Jordan can be a logical choice at SAM; we've not seen him there. Not with Miami, and not at Oregon that I've seen. He was mostly a weak/open side player. I'll bow out with this, and that is while Dion Jordan may be a superior athlete, elite at his size as you say, that doesn't make him automatically a good SAM LB. As much as I disagree with this coaching staff, I think they've got Dion Jordan pegged pretty well. And lastly, you seem to be basing a lot of this solely off the preseason...I'm curious as to why? Do you REALLY think the coaching staff has pigeon-holed him solely at DE? I feel like you and others have set that in stone not accounting for them not wanting to show their hand in terms of how else they plan on using him in sub-packages. To me, that's extremely short-sighted.
At this point, I'd disagree, unless we're talking strictly sub-packages, and to that point I'd say it doesn't matter what Dion Jordan weighs. And to counter, I think in the future the team would be better with Dion/275, Wake, and McCain at SAM; just a hunch. I'd also ask, why do you think it's not possible that he's NOT lost weight. The 275lbs mark was what he weighed-in at on the 1st day of Training Camp. Again, I feel like that's setting something in stone that we don't necessarily know to be true as of right now, and won't really know to be true when Dion Jordan returns. I just hope he stays clean while he's away from the team.
Well then Wake..Dion/250.. Vern.. McCain..can happen my way, I'm just not into taking vern out of the equation when I'm confident I have a serious talent who can play linebacker instead of bulking said player up and take Vern's spot.. If Vern plays better this year I'm sorry your plan is null and void..because then it comes down to maximizing your resources..and in no way does taking an ascending young player off the line, bulking up another in his spot make sense.
At this point, maximizing the resources would be better solved by having Dion Jordan at DE over Olivier Vernon. They're still all 3 - Wake, Jordan, and Vernon - going to be on the field quite a bit. But, by having Jordan play at the spot/technique it's going to help make Cameron Wake, Miami's best individual resource, become even more effective, and it's going to establish a rotation among the 3, plus with Derrick Shelby, you're keeping all 4 fresh a la Seattle with their group last year, so I think that's pretty farcical to say my plan is null and void, considering that's what appears the coaching staff is doing, and especially when there's no proof on tape anywhere of Dion Jordan playing a SAM LB in a 4-3 Under/Over defense and playing it well. I understand wanting Dion Jordan on the field more, and I'd be more behind that motive if there was actual tape showing he'd be effective in that capacity. Based on what he did at Oregon and what he did last year, I don't think that's the best role for him; again, he's not Von Miller.
The 1-gap 34 is my favorite defensive scheme. An attacking penetrating scheme that gives you plenty of versatility and the ability to disguise in regards to mixing things up in terms of pressure and coverage...
He doesn't have to be Von miller, once again, if Vern continues to rise then having dion gain weight and play end was a mistake, his skillset tells me all that I need to know in playing outside.. Your worried about rotation I'm worried about getting the best player and fitting the scheme to fit their strengths, and in no way does having a freak athlete like dion gain 30 lbs and have him settle in doing his biggest weakness. You do know that out of over a hundred snaps at end against scrubs he had not 1 sack. He couldn't finish.. I watched him standup and play linebacker in college and last year, I was fine with his play considering the injury and excited about his upside there. ..what were in real disagreement is that you haven't acknowledged or haven't seen any issues with his movement, coordination and balance, I have and IMO its not nearly what it was, now you may say well, we have to sacrifice some so he can play the run better, for which I'll say, not over what he potentially could do at 250 all over the field. I think your making this to complicated Ro, you think him holding it down will open things up for wake, I'm worried about what your doing to Jordan the player, wake is fine doing what he does, don't sacrifice Jordan's skillset to benefit wake, get all three players on the field because all three have size, strength and talent.
I'll just agree to disagree because you keep glossing over that I've stated that all 3 players will be on the field at the same time a considerable amount and to this point, I don't think there's any film out there that shows Dion Jordan would be more effective at SAM LB in this scheme; nor would he prove more effective than if he plays both as a closed DE opposite Wake AND continues to be a specialist player in sub packages as he was last year. There's no film of it, just your say so, which I trust, but not to the detriment of team defense by moving Jordan there. Cameron Wake is the best player on the defense, and I'd want to do everything I can to maximizes his effectiveness. At this point, Dion Jordan is good at playing the closed end spot and and being used in specialist packages; the rest is just potential, and there's really no way around that at this point. His pass-rush is the biggest detriment to his game at this point, and it's not like he was a standout pass-rusher at Oregon from a stand-up OLB perspective either. As for OV, I've continually said why I think the defense works better when Jordan is opposite Wake and OV is used on the interior. That's in no way belittling OV's contributions, it is what it is, but in turn I believe it would do a better job helping that total defense than sticking Dion Jordan back at SAM LB and leaving OV where he is ALL the time. Both players have some flexibility with how they can be used in certain packages and I think Kevin Coyle only started scratching the surface of that late last season. The role I envision you having in your mind as it relates to Dion Jordan is akin to what Seattle has done with Bruce Irvin. While that could potentially work, the basis of that role is effective pass-rush off the edge. Dion Jordan hasn't shown that to this point, but he's done a better job of playing the run from that DE spot than OV has, and that in turn allows Cameron Wake to play on the open side of the formation, where he was better at stopping the run in 2012 when Miami had Odrick at DE opposite him. Until Dion Jordan proves he can be an effective pass-rusher, I don't see any reason to try and make him into a Bruce Irvin/Von Miller type of player when you can maximize what he already does well by having him play both DE and as a sub-package matchup specialist. No harm, no foul, but this is at am impasse so I'll move on.
You didnt have any film of dion Jordan playing defensive end at 275 lbs before the season, now that we have some, abort the mission, because the film we do have at 250 is much much better..
Jordan is not a DE. That is evident. The second unit at LB could be more exciting than the first unit: McCain, Trusnik, Jordan. (Of course, provided Jordan goes back to his 13 shape.)
It's worth noting that the Dolphins ran quite a bit of 3-4 base package today, to the extent where they almost appeared to switch after the linebacker injuries, so they could put just two "true" linebackers on the field. I was a little bit surprised to see Derrick Shelby playing OLB. I'm not sure it's that tenable going forward- Odrick and Starks are the only experienced ends they have.
I think your likely look as things go on is: - Jenkins - Tripp - McCain With the regular front 4. I don't see a 3-4 out there much more often.
