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The major offensive failure is with Bill Lazor, not Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Disgustipate, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Part of me feels like Ryan Tannehill is, or would be similar if he showed a propensity to run once in a while, to Alex Smith. Smith had coaching changes and never really got good teaching in SF until Harbaugh got there. Next thing you know he's "game managing" his way to the NFCCG. To me, it seems like Ryan Tannehill needs to have the offense tailored to what he's good at. While Lazor might be good at his job, this system, to me, seems to be pretty foreign to Ryan Tannehill in terms of what he's been asked to do as a QB both in college and in the NFL.

    Not saying he's going to be an elite QB by any means, but I just don't think he fits what Lazor is trying/wanting to do.
     
    Disgustipate likes this.
  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well no, he didn't. Chip Kelly and Pat Shurmur did. Lazor was pretty far down that totem pole. It looks like he did a good job in regards to QB coach stuff with Foles, but when there's a glaring problem when he's doing so in a new place it's on him. If Tannehill was a two-read former option quarterback that had below average intelligence, then that would be an excuse for the problems.

    Furthermore, we know it isn't just the quarterback. The wide receivers aren't running routes correctly and there are issues on the coaching end there as well. Part of that falls on Ken O'Keefe, but again it's Lazors offense.
     
  3. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    ...and in which he had already played in college, with his former head coach coordinating it, rather than stepping into an entirely new system, with a coach who was unfamiliar with him.
     
  4. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but I can't put it all on Lazor. Tannehill just isn't playing well. I don't know how you can watch the tape and come to any other conclusion. That said, Lazor certainly isn't the savior everyone anointed him. Pretty clear this offense should be a run heavy unit, even without Moreno.
     
  5. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    I think it's going to be pretty difficult to tell how good a coordinator is when he doesn't have adequate play at the QB position. The problem we're running into now is that Lazor is shortening the field due to Tannehill's downfield throwing problems, which is allowing defenses to cram the short field and defend those plays better. Soon defenses will have nearly all of their personnel up near the line, which will do a better job of defending the run game, too. At that point we'll have little or no offense. Should we blame Lazor for that?
     
    Sceeto likes this.
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What are the stats this season for Tannehill on balls thrown over 20 yards? What are the stats to receivers other than Wallace? How many balls over 20 yards have been dropped when they shouldn't have been?
     
  7. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    Well when you have not only the QB regressing significantly, but also the receivers and pass catchers struggling with routes and drop balls and overall offensive execution, you've got to question what the OC is doing. Last 2 games have been rather poor in the offensive execution and play-calling department. Lazor has to be held accountable.

    However I'll also say that Tannehill has rather failed to improve his weaknesses throughout his 3 pro years. His weaknesses today are still as prominent as they were when he entered the league. Maybe this offense is exposing them more rather than masking them, maybe that's Lazor's worst mistake, but Tannehill isn't helping at all. I'm really down on him since the pre-season.
     
  8. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When another offensive coordinator(who wasn't very good) handled the situation with much better results then yes.
     
  9. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]29
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]11.7
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]28.6
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]20
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Derek Carr
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]OAK
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]10
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]101
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]9.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]30
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]21
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Nick Foles
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]PHI
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]26
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]9
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]250
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]21
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]38.5
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]22
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Ben Roethlisberger
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]PIT
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]7
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]105
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]42.9
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]23
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Philip Rivers
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]SD
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]15
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]5
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]185
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]15.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]40
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]24
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Colin Kaepernick
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]SF
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]12
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]5
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]131
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]12.8
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]41.7
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]25
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Austin Davis
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]SL
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]12
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]7
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]219
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]12.8
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]66.7
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]26
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Josh McCown
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]TB
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]7
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]84
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]10.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]42.9
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]27
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Jake Locker
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]TEN
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]19
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]153
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]18.8
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]26.3
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]28
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 144, bgcolor: transparent"]Kirk Cousins
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent"]WAS
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]12
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]230
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.8
    [/TD]
    [TD="class: xl64, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]50
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  10. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    DC
    Also, before anyone goes and points out Tom Brady, it should be noted that Tom Brady is sucking major butt this year.
     
  11. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Well I think that depends on how you define "the situation." If the situation is that the QB needs to be catered to at the expense of having an offense that can win more effectively in the NFL, then yes. If "the situation" is that you're going to go with an offense that's more likely to win the NFL, despite what that may do to your QB, while finding out whether he can truly play in the process, then the current coordinator may be handling it quite a bit better.
     
  12. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Improved quarterback play is not going to occur at the expense of winning. They're fundamentally related concepts.

    Seeing if he can "truly play" is not a thing that requires bad play on the field if you can avoid it. You are responsible for making the assessment that Tannehill can or cannot do what you want before you get on the field. You knew there were issues in camp. Your job is to win games, not experiment.
     
  13. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Where is the evidence of that? All I remember hearing was that in camp Tannehill appeared to be making a stride forward.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    this poster has an opinion and hasn't don't anything to suggest he is trolling.

    There is nothing wrong with that statement..don't kill the guy for having his own opinion VT.?
     
  15. Sinthesizer

    Sinthesizer Banned

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    17 is missing some throws and failing to react to pressure in time, receivers are dropping passes, those are relatively small issues compared to last season. The pass pro and run game are miles ahead of 2013, 26 had his best game as a pro, 11 and 17 seem to have improved their timing. DT looked good in limited action. When 51 and 28 get back the run game will be even better, opening up more opps for 17 to make plays. Not facing elite DL units like Buffalo and KC will help too.

    Take a chill pill guys, it's week 3.
     
  16. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Whether Lazor or Tannehill is worse at their jobs is a pretty silly debate to have. Neither have done anything to indicate much competency at their jobs.
     
  17. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Year 1 excuse: "He doesn't have anyone to stretch the field." Solution: a 12-million dollar deep threat.

    Year 2 excuse: "Well sure he has a deep threat but now he has no OLine or run game." Solution: huge investments in the OLine and run game, both of which much improved.

    Year 3 excuse: "Well sure he has a bunch of good players around him now, but hey his first OC sucked. We fired him and RT is still struggling? Well I guess this new OC sucks too."

    Every Year excuse: "Well he did play WR for a while in college..."

    It's pretty tired. He's not getting it done. The offense has been bad since he took over as our QB. Again, I thought there should be a big focus on YPA, a good sign of W/L success, a sign of chunk yards and taking shots, hitting guys in space for yac yards, etc. Well, it's a paltry 5.08, which is pathetic really. Maybe we can blame that on Lazor? But oh wait his YPA was bad with Sherman too. And hey it was also in the bottom of the FBS during his college career. Maybe this is who he is.

    I'm not saying we should bench him. That would be foolish. Give him time to settle into this system in year 3. But when looking for reasons why the offense is struggling people need to stop looking at everyone around the QB and focus on the guy who is, you know, the most important player on the field.
     
  18. Sinthesizer

    Sinthesizer Banned

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    First sentence is spot on. 2nd sentence is silly IMHO.
     
  19. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Except that Lazor apparently had a strong hand in making Nick Foles take off like a rocket in Philadelphia, whereas Tannehill has done nothing sustained above the average level in the NFL. There is at least some evidence of coaching success in the NFL for Lazor, whereas there is no evidence of sustained success for Tannehill.
     
  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There was a stretch where he was struggling and it was justified by the coaching staff by them trying to push him. They tested what he did and didn't do well, and haven't appropriately reacted to it.
     
  21. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    But that's my point here. What if "what he doesn't do well" necessitates a change in the offensive structure such that it becomes too non-competitive in today's NFL?

    Again, you can go only so far with the concept of "tailoring your schemes to your talent." If you do so much "tailoring" that you wind up with the equivalent of a college offense, obviously that's a problem.
     
  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're essentially arguing that you should require Tannehill to execute the full offense regardless of the known outcome because the alternative may be bad. We know Tannehill is capable of viable performance, that's the goal.
     
  23. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    How do we know he's capable of anything above the average level, on a sustained basis, in the NFL?
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Apparently had a strong hand? Why is it apparent when Ryan Tannehill is performing worse than he did under Sherman?

    What indicates competency? Because Bill Lazor worked for the Eagles?
     
  25. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Because Foles is better than Tannehill?
     
  26. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right, and we know Lazor had a strong hand in his development, because why? At this point he's basically a carbon image of Joe Philbin - guys that have gotten jobs simply because they were associated with success.
     
    Piston Honda and finyank13 like this.
  27. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    We don't. As usual, we're doing a whole lot of speculating.
     
  28. jeremy2020

    jeremy2020 Active Member

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    I think you missed his point. If the QB has the awareness of a toddler then you need to design your offense to take that into account. You can't just throw your hands up and say, "All of our QBs suck so we'll just suck."
     
    DPlus47 likes this.
  29. isaacjunk

    isaacjunk Member

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    Well at least can we agree the run game is much improved? There must be some credit given to Lazor on this...in addition to a revamped line of course.
     
  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sure, I think that Lazor has done a good job with elements of the run game.
     
  31. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Right, but you also can't design an offense around that QB that's the functional equivalent of a "toddler" when it comes to its competitiveness with that of other NFL teams. Your offensive scheme still has to be competitive, regardless of what your QB can do.

    To use an extreme example just to illustrate the point, you can't trot a Pop Warner league offense out there on an NFL field just so your quarterback can function within it. If you find yourself having to do something along those lines, it's time to scrap the quarterback, not the offense.

    What we may be witnessing here is the process of finding out that Ryan Tannehill can't function well enough within an offense that's designed to be highly competitive in the NFL. And if that's the case, that needs to be found out, and quickly, and we need to move on.
     
  32. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I still don't get the issue.

    Our last scheme was flat out terrible. It had to be changed. I'm 100% sure some of the route concepts are still there. Every system has the same routes run in different combinations with different progressions. Yes you want Tannehill to be comfortable but you also need to find out if he can run the system. If you baby him what do you learn? You go into the offseason STILL not knowing.

    Yes this is trial by fire in some ways but its the right time for it. Tannehill will have 16 games to sink or swim. You know what? If he clicks after week 8 and we don't make the playoffs due to a slow start its a successful season. Also if he fails....its still somewhat of a successful season for fans because we will know with certainty.
     
    Dolphans Unite! likes this.
  33. UK Fins Fan

    UK Fins Fan Member

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    Teams worse than the Dolphins:

    Raiders, Jags, Rams, Bucs, Vikings (w/o AP)

    27th in NFL, I think.
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sadly I think the Rams with Austin Davis have a good chance against us.
     
  35. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Certainly bottom 5. Ranked 4th worst in EPA and third worst in WPA.
     
  36. EverFin

    EverFin Active Member

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    I hate it - but maybe you are right.
     
  37. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I love your avatar.

    I agree that Lazor needs to adjust the offense to fit the talents of his struggling QB. It's tough to say right now what problems are "new system growing pains" and what problems are "this guy we overdrafted is just a guy."
     
  38. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Those issues didn't seem to occur for Nick Foles, however.
     
  39. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Nick Foles is proof that football is a team sport.

    he is making all the mistakes I see Tannehill making, yet his team is playing much better.
     
  40. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Nick Foles makes the same mistakes, but on the flip side he's also making plays downfield and in chunks. Tannehill doesn't really do that.
     

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