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Philbin goes deep.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    It's entirely possible that over the long haul, he'll be neither good enough from the pocket, nor good enough when he runs around. The statistics he's accumulated thus far suggest that he's no better in the most important ways a QB's game can be measured when he runs the ball more.

    We're all wanting there to be some untapped, "secret ingredient" to Ryan Tannehill's game, whether that be Philbin's motivating him with some threat to the media, or his running the ball more, but the odds are that he's simply not going to be a franchise QB. We all get excited when he has a good game, but he's had good games before, and in fact a good stretch of them last year, but he's always balanced those with relatively poor games, so that on the whole what you have is about an average QB.
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So is Rodgers the winningest and greatest QB in history?
     
  3. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IMO, it's not about just running the ball. Throwing the ball on the move can cut down the ability of the pass rush to get to him, and according to Bill Barnwell, "He has actually been the fifth-best passer in football outside of the pocket since arriving in the NFL, per QBR, and the gap between his performance outside and inside the pocket is the third largest in football."

    We discussed this article a while back. I'm not sure how into depth we got on "why don't they ever move Tannehill around?" but that's a question I have.
     
  4. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To continue, both Tannehill himself--as DJ states--and the coaching staff would be well served by trying to figure out how to make the game easier for him. Move him around, use his athleticism, take off from the pocket occasionally... These are all things that are taken for granted with just about every athletic QB in the league but ours.
     
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  5. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    The problem with the "throwing outside the pocket" issue is that his performance in that area is barely above average. He might be the fifth-best passer outside the pocket in football since arriving in the league, and he might have the third-largest gap between his in-the-pocket and outside-the-pocket performance, but if both types of performance (in and out of the pocket) are right around average, we still have a problem. His outside-the-pocket QBR is 57.7, and his inside-the-pocket QBR is 47.3. Neither figure is in the "franchise QB" realm, and that's a problem.

    Now, if one of those figures was very good or exceptional, and it stayed that way even though you made him do it predominantly, then we'd have something. But with neither figure's being what it needs to be, we have a problem.
     
  6. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would hope that the coaching staff doesn't just throw its hands in the air and do nothing. If something they can do with the playbook can make Ryan Tannehill a little better, then they should do it regardless of whether it's going to move him into franchise QB territory. The job of the coaching staff is to get the most out of the players that are on the team. If your below-the-middle-of-the-pack-QB is 5th in the league at ANYTHING positive, everyone on the staff should be on board with doing it more, IMO.
     
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  7. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Wait...5th best is barely above average?

    Lost me at QBR anyway...doesn't matter.
     
  8. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    But again this is where you encounter the trade-off between designing your offense around a QB's strengths, and perhaps making your offense less competitive at the NFL level.

    Again an extreme example: if your QB's strengths necessitate a Pop Warner offense, obviously then you stand no chance of competing at the NFL level. Obviously that's not where Ryan Tannehill is, but if you find yourself designing your offense around what he can do, and that makes your offense less competitive in terms of what works in the NFL, well then there will be drawbacks to that, as well. You may have made Ryan Tannehill more effective, but you may have also made your offense less effective in moving the ball and scoring points.

    Obviously the best-case scenario is to have a QB whose strengths align with what's currently most competitive offensively in the NFL. I'm not sure moving outside the pocket on a regular basis is that, and that's further problematic when the evidence shows that Tannehill's performance in that area is only a bit above average. You may be choosing a form of play that's less competitive in the NFL, only to gain something (slightly above-average QB play) that's also non-competitive.
     
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  9. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    Most people on this board including me find it hard to believe the Dolphins have turned the corner.
     
  10. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    DU...serious question for you..and Im not asking it to be smarmy. Do you ever just look at a football player without..looking at the stats and numbers. I believe stats have a huge role in football..but you use them that same one would use them in baseball.

    Lets look at one example ok.

    On one play...for a QB to make a completed pass..how many things must go right..for that pass to happen.

    In baseball..for a player to get a hit..how many things have to happen.

    I love..LOVE..when you use your noggin to break down things..it brings alot to the table. But..sometimes you use numbers to say..I dont like a player....and then throw tons of numbers.

    Id love to hear your thoughts sometimes..from how you see things as well..not from a spread sheet but on the field.
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To an extent I agree, I just think he will be a better qb than he has displayed if he starts to consciously include his legs in the gameplan on a consistent basis...

    I attribute the inconsistencies your seeing in his overall game because he's incredibly inconsistent when it comes to incorporating his legs into his game..this has to be a conscious effort, on purpose running..
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, when I talk running, I mean 4 to 5 read option and or scrambles for runs, and 4 bootleg/ rollouts to both sides.
     
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  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's above average throwing the football in the run, has very unique abillity going to his left and throwing, can get square to the target with his torso..
     
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  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So far ryan has not past the eye test as a franchise qb, he did accomplish a level of play in London that I had not seen so let's hope he can sustain the correct energy and mindset..which is to play every play with a sense of urgency, this is the most important element to his success.this is how you get the most. Upside to his game, not constrict him to the pocket..don't think that he will be a better pocket qb then dual threat..be the dual threat and live or die.
     
  15. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The "sense of urgency" thing is important, and unfortunately for this argument, immeasurable. I agree with you here. I think Tannehill consciously thinks that it doesn't feel good to have his job threatened, but the competitor in him rose to the occasion when it happened last week. What slightly disappointed me is a quote from after the Raiders game, where Ryan said (paraphrasing here) "I can't control whether I remain the starter." If that competitor switch in him were always on, he'd say something like "I can control my own destiny with outstanding play..." Part of Philbin's job might be messing with that switch from here on out. RT had no problem with New England last year, maybe in part because he saw them as the ultimate measuring stick. He needs to get it together that he's being measured every week.

    I think that if we're not all on here complaining at the end of the year that Tannehill got snubbed from the pro bowl, you draft another QB relatively high next year. It will either light a fire under Ryan (as one could argue P. Rivers lit a fire under Brees), or it will mark the beginning of that "moving on" process.

    Right now, the coaching staff should be thinking about how to maximize Ryan Tannehill on a game-by-game basis. Talking about developing the offense for the future shouldn't be on this coaching staff's agenda because they don't have a future if they don't win. I also don't understand the talk of "it would not be an NFL offense" if Tannehill were put on the move 8-10 times a game through various designs. Does Seattle's Lombardi trophy get a little less shiny because they allow their QB to use his legs on occasion? They DO run an NFL offense, by the way, but it's deemed simplistic and inferior by some, for some reason.

    According to some on the forum, that ability to move (by design and by improvisation) is what makes Russell Wilson an inferior QB, as if he loses his ability to drop back from under center, read a defense, and make a great throw because he moves around sometimes. Wilson can do both. Tannehill can't do both yet, but if the game can be made a little bit easier for him, it's like a cold basketball player sinking a couple of free throws before getting a little hotter: a little confidence can spread to different areas of his game.
     
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  16. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    I think what he's incredibly inconsistent with regard to is the awareness of when he needs to use his legs and escape the pocket, and there isn't any evidence to date that when he runs more on purpose, his awareness in that regard increases.

    Last year at home against New England Tannehill was 25 for 37, for 312 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INTs, a 120.6 QB rating, and an 8.4 YPA. He followed that game with the two clunkers to end the season. This past Sunday against Oakland he was likewise stellar, but it's going to take a great deal for that not to be a similar flash in the pan, especially when in games 8 through 14 last year, he had amassed a stretch of fairly good play, only to fall off the table in the following five games (the last two last year and the first three this year).

    I think there's a good chance that Tannehill simply played with more conviction and command Sunday, due to the threat of losing his job and being somewhat embarrassed publicly. If so, that could be an issue, because I doubt we're going to be able to muster those sorts of circumstances on a regular basis. He's going to have to rise to that level due to some more stable factor(s).
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    :knucks:

    I love when I hear, "but it cuts off one side of the field"..that's why you shouldn't do it.."

    Those folks first off are not taking into account the options on a boot or rollout, 2nd, how good the qb is at doing it, and three, how it affects the defense moving forward..it's about making them think the qb can go in any direction with the ball and how they have to respect that, ( yes , making athletes think before they unless)including going up the gut, until then this qb figures this key element of strategy out, he will never reach his ceiling.

    We should be very clear if he understands this sense of urgency early in the packer game..

    He might be inspired because aaron Rogers will be all over our defense doing it..
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well pissass, you don't think one can bottle it up?

    I agree that we saw a different mindset because of what happened, I agree that he's been inconsistent in that regard, what I don't agree with is that when he does run it doesn't help his overall game, it's hard to prove anything because he rarely does it, but what I'm saying is if you instilled it into the gameplan you would see Qbr go up..

    Running on purpose has to come from him seeing a lane and not thinking just going for it, which means consciously he has to be aware of it before the play is called, I need him to get over the mental block of " I have to stay and make my reads, if he doesn't he won't be the best he can be, if he does I think it will directly engage that sense of urgency and increase his performance which will obviously increase his passing efficiency.
     
  19. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    Again, I don't think that's the problem. It's not a mental block in my opinion; it's an inability to focus on both his reads and the rush at the same time. Consequently he reacts to the rush far too late. By the time he starts focusing on it, it's already enveloped him, and there's nowhere to go. And I'm not sure that running around on purpose will help him multi-task in that regard.

    I don't think anybody should feel any differently about Ryan Tannehill today than they did before the Raiders game. Until he proves otherwise with sustained performance over and above what's typical for him, what we're likely seeing is the bouncing around he typically does, which when taken as a whole makes him settle in the average range in the league.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with your first paragraph..I do think that his mindset/ creating his own sense of urgency, will help elevate his performance, but he has to consciously do something every week to get there.

    I'm trying to get the best out of this qb, if the staff can design runs in the gameplan your going to get a better version of the qb, if the qb can start to do run on purpose your going to get a better version of the qb, I u deist and its hard for him to go thru his reads while reading the rush, that's why I'm willing to sacrifice the pocket on occasion and put it in his head to run upfield on purpose when he sees a lane, early in the ball game, giving the defense something else to think about, which in this case the qb may run left, right, or strait up the gut..

    I'm not asking him to morph into russell Wilson, I'm asking for legitimate designed qb runs.
     
  21. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well
    ...hes not surpassed your eye test...just sayin
     
  22. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    Coaches see what you were successful at and take that away. Mike McCarthy will likely take away the outlet run and the 3 step drop pass with DE's staying home and press coverage short. Tannehill will have to be successful with what the D gives him, which may not be a roll out run. I think the run game and the intermediate to long pass will be available this game.

    As far as not coming in flat and a motivation to win, I think it a sense it's like us at work. Do we work all 8 hrs non stop. No. Do we goof off and kill time, yes. Would we work harder if we're reminded that there is someone pushing us that may take our job? Yes. Philbin needs to remind these players that if they don't perform, someone else will take snaps from them.
     
  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's passed yours?
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ahh yes, fear..
     
  25. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Knowingly or not, he's set a new bar for himself. He's going to have to at least show some consistency in performing close to that level. I fully believe he intends to and wants to...
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree, he's got to be accountable..we saw a different ryan Tannehill mindset wise, I don't care what anyone says, I saw it, so now he knows if he lets himself go a bit, come out of his shell so to speak, he can do it..

    He's always been very reserved, he needed to show some open emotion, being yourself is easier said then done, sometimes it's a real learning process to be comfortable in your own skin, I saw some real swagger, now I'd like to see more.

    Just study aaron Rogers during the bye..
     
  27. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Ive seen enough to believe he has a good shot to get there...
     

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