Mariota > Winston..

I sometimes mention that I'd like to see Mariota forced to throw into tighter windows to see how he reacts, whether he hesitates, checks off, stays aggressive, etc.

You want tight window throws? Check out Gunner Kiel's highlight tape through the first four games of the 2014 season. Specifically check out those tight window touchdowns against Toledo. I don't care what quality the defense is, the ability to do that translates well IMO.

[video=youtube;vyv3Cg2-Lsg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyv3Cg2-Lsg[/video]

 

Another night where Mariota gets sacked a bit. Another night where he starts fumbling.

Arizona just knocked off the #2 ranked team in the nation because Mariota can't hang onto the ball when sacked.

 

Unless a team is veryyyyyyyyyyyy desperate, I think teams will draft other talent before a quarterback with the first 15 picks. I don't think Jameis comes out and even if he does there are flags on his personality, he will be advised to stay another year to help his draft stock. I don't think Mariota is on anyone's Top 20.. Mariota has a good chance to land with a team like the Texans at the 20something pick which is good for him since they have talent and are winning already.

Yesterday's game did damage his stock. He's got two games worth a damn to redeem himself, in 10 days he's got to go on the road to UCLA and then Stanford, the same team that dominated Mariota last season. UCLA's defense is no walk in the park either. A loss to either of those teams won't be good for Oregon's playoff chances.

 

Losing to Arizona may have already torpedoed their playoff chances.

I'm not sure where Mariota will go. I can't assume one way or another right now. My issues with him have always been:

1. Pocket presence. He sees ghosts in the pocket, can look overwhelmed when pressure does come in, and he fumbles a LOT.

2. Accuracy. Can he throw into tight windows?

3. Offense. The wide open spacing and windows of that offense sometimes make it look like you're getting to work with a 1st & 5 instead of a 1st & 10. How much of his legend is based on this?

 

I mentioned before about 3rd & 10+ and how it can really pinpoint whether a guy can sit back in a high risk situation, manage what is probably going to be a collapsing pocket as you wait for deeper routes to develop, and throw into what is more likely to be a tight window as everyone is dropped back into coverage around the sticks, and/or in guys' hip pocket in man.

From 2012 to 2013 he'd only converted the 1st down on 19.7% of these situations. Now we get to 2014 and he's still only converted 1 out of 10 in these situations. This is significantly below normal and I think it potentially points back to the issues of whether he can manage a cluttered pocket, and whether he can throw into tight windows.

 

Gunner Kiel is really, really good. Too early to tell with only 4 games, but he's got the goods. I wish he would have followed through with his commitment to IU. He would be in his 3rd year starting and potentially a top pick.

 

http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...cts-for-2015&p=2427864&viewfull=1#post2427864

 

Taysom Hill is not getting enough credit for the pure skill set he has. He's basically a shorter Colin Kaepernick with a much much much quicker release. As a runner he is every bit as elusive versus pressure and as fearsome a runner as Tim Tebow was in college. Every bit. But as a passer he has FANTASTIC velocity, and what maybe people don't see as much is he's got such a quick release. It really projects well. Hair trigger.

Like Kaepernick, you can point out nits in his operation of the passing offense and the way he sees the field, makes decisions. But like Kaepernic, he's a winner (could run the table this year legitimately), and is a GREAT character guy.

Downfield accuracy may not be as high as Kaepernick's. But he's a junior and could come back for his final season, could still improve. I see a lot of pinpoint high velocity throws to the perimeter, which you need to see.

UPDATE: Ouch. Took a nasty leg injury that looks like a broken leg. Terrible for the kid. He took a broken leg against Utah State in 2012 as well. Should ensure that he stays in for his final year of eligibility which will ultimately help him more than hurt him, long as he can shake off the injury bug.

 

DeShaun Watson > Mariota > Winston. Watson makes Winston look like EJ Manuel.

I'd try to accumulate additional 2017 1st round picks from bottom of the barrel teams to increase the odds of having the #1 pick to either use on Watson or trade back for a king's ransom to one of the teams pounding on the door for him. This kid is a prodigy with a golden arm who could very well end up surpassing Andrew Luck as the highest rated QB prospect since Elway or Manning. Tannehill would have 10 extra touchdowns to Wallace since last year if he had Watson's touch on throws downfield.

 

If we are waiting that long, we may as well wait for Brad Kaaya in three years

 

Deshaun would be a 2017 quarterback, right? Or would he be eligible for the 2016 draft?

He reminds me a lot of McNabb. Which is a good thing IMO. McNabb was a damn good quarterback in his prime.

 

Way too early to start trying to plan to get a Deshaun Watson.

And honestly I don't know how to put him or Marcus Mariota above Jameis Winston at the moment.

 

Dak Prescott is better than both Mariota and Winston.

 

-because he's doing as a true freshman what Winston needed a redshirt year for. Watson's got brains. While Jameis is busy shouting **** her right in the *****, DeShaun is studying game film.

Incidentally, I noticed Watson leads the nation in Total QBR at 91.6, the only QB currently above 90. If he holds this pace, he'll join Luck, Russell Wilson, Sam Bradford, and Manziel as the only 5 QBs to finish at 90+ the past 7 years. Not bad company- two #1 overall picks, a 1st rounder, and a guy who would be the #1 overall pick if he were added to the 2015 draft. Granted, when Luck & Wilson were freshman, their Total QBRs were 78.4 & 67.8, and it took Wilson 5 years to break 90..... 3 for Luck.

 

We have no idea what Jameis Winston would've done as a true freshman. That's a fallacy of an argument. What we know is what Jameis Winston did the first time he got an opportunity to play, and what he's still doing.

As for the comment about DeShaun studying film while Jameis shouts things in the student union, please. Let's have actual serious points be brought up, not clown car statements. If you're going to suggest that Jameis Winston doesn't study film you'd better come with some better backing than that because it's extremely, extremely, extremely apparent from his work on the field both last year and this year that the guy is an absolute junkie in terms of being a student of the game. Hell I think someone dug up notebooks from when he was like 12 years old where he's breaking down cover two and quarters defenses on his own time.

This is just something people say because they automatically equate a guy who f-cks up off the field to a guy that doesn't care about football and doesn't study it. But the film doesn't lie.

Yeah, IF he finishes that way. Dude has played like 3 or 4 games, only two of them particularly impressive and both of those against porous defenses, and you're organizing his coronation.

 

As Noles fan, I'm not happy about facing Watson for the next 3 years. However, enough with the Jameis bashing.

So you are trying to say Jameis wasn't studying film his freshmen year. He had 0 incidents too his freshman year. Watson's not 3 years in like Jameis in. That's like comparing a newborn to a 16 year old and saying he hasn't gotten in trouble with the law like the 16 year old.

Give me a break.

 

Ducks fan and season ticket holder.

People crack me up. Mariotta had HUGE question marks going out of last season. I've said it before and agree with CK, he was a 3rd round pick.

1. Leadership was questionable. He often times shrank in the big lights, isn't vocal, not so much a "leader" as you look for in a QB. Never stepped up and put the tram on his shoulders and carried them through.

2. Made the throws, but they were easy throws. Offense doesn't dictate that he make throws into tight spaces as his receivers are usually very open and make this moves to bust the play open.

3. He filmed the ball FAR too much when getting hit.

4. He struggled with quality defenses. It's the PAC, they're the weakest defense conference in the country outside of perhaps the Big10, and even that is debatable. The one good defense he played was Stanford, and that got ugly quick.




Now, THIS season is a bit of a different story. He did himself a huge favor station in school IMO. He looks MUCH improved.

1. He hasn't shrunk in the bright lights...yet. Now that they have a loss the pressure is on, still can't wait for Stanford game, but he handled Michigan State well, was the line bright spot vs. AZ, and pulled him team up to overcome their injuries at Washington state.

2. He is THR leader of this team now. Stepping up and carrying them. The guys are following him finally. Makes huge plays and energizes his team.

3. He's making better throws. His touch is still lacking, and his fade is still rough, but much more catchable throws, he's threaded the needle a few times, has a better deep ball, and just seems more confident.

4. He's protected the ball well thus far, making great reads, but he's still a tweener. Granted his OL is best to hell, but that fumble at the end of AZ game hurt his ageism an chances an spoked an otherwise pretty solid (personal) outing.



He excites me as a guy who could excel in the NFL under a specific system. Philly, Sea, etc. I don't see him as a Drew Brees-type guy who could fit in almost anywhere, you'll have to develope it to his strengths, but is be excited if we had him and Lazor for instance. I think he's a better Russell Wilson. Don't like RW and all the jock riding everyone does on him up here...he's a game manager in the perfect system for him...take him elsewhere and I be the struggles a lot, but he's very successful at why he does.

 

Is it just me, or is every GM going to be asking if any teammates attended Bo Wallace's birthday party??

 

You had me until you started talking about Russell Wilson. He's elite. Watch him play, that's how he plays. He plays like an elite player at the position.

 

He's the one quarterback I would structure my offense around and allow him to play differently, but I am completely and 100% biased since he is my alma mater's quarterback and a legitimate Heisman candidate.

He's Tim Tebow with better passing ability.

 

Unfortunately Tim Tebow is so bad at the NFL level that this isn't much of a compliment anymore. I mean, Taysom Hill is Tim Tebow with better passing ability.

 

Where is this bevy of system QB's with above 100 ratings and 11+ wins every year of their career to date? I've yet to hear anyone explain to me what that system is. Throwing to Ricardo Lockette is a system now?

 

Packers circa 1996?

 

My comment was a reference to their difference in maturity levels, professionalism, and general code of conduct. Jameis knows he's supposed to be the face of FSU football and potentially has a future making millions in the NFL, yet he:
- steals s**t [like I'm supposed to believe the time he got caught stealing crab legs was only the 2nd time he ever perpetrated a 5-finger discount]
- had police notified for stealing soda from Burger King in spite of employee objections.
- embarrassed himself, FSU's program, and the university by obnoxiously shouting rude obscenities in public.
- lied to school officials during investigation of the above incident.
- embarrassed himself & program further by posting pics of opponent football & baseball stadiums on Twitter, captioning it "Our house" & "Our house part 2".
- had the police called for playing with a pellet gun on campus.
- did $4,000 in damage to his apartment during a pellet gun war just 2 hours after the above pellet gun incident. Are you kidding me?!
- ditched a code of conduct hearing that required his presence.
- showed up like a dumbass wearing a helmet and pads to a game he's suspended for, annoying his head coach in the process.

​

- accused of rape, but says it was purely consensual. [yeah right, nothing about his character suggests he's above pushing a girl further in a make-out session than she's willing to go]

And no, Nappy, he didn't have "0 incidents" as a freshman. The pellet gun stuff, rape, and theft at BK occurred his freshman year. Obviously not learning from his freshman year mistakes, he stole crab legs and ditched a code-of-conduct meeting his sophomore year. Obviously not learning from his freshman & sophomore mistakes, he publicly screamed obscenities and posted obnoxious tweets in conduct-unbecoming fashion. He's a classless irresponsible turd, and I won't stop criticizing him just because you, Nappy, are a Noles fan. You're not afforded the privilege to tell others who they can or can't criticize. Nobody held a gun to Winston's head and forced him to act like a POS, so stop acting like he's some sort of victim being unjustly slandered. When Jameis has spent enough time NOT acting like a delinquent to show he no longer deserves to be criticized like one, then I'll cease criticizing him. It's that simple.

Hate to break it to you Nappy, but the reason DeShaun hasn't committed turd-like acts in Shameus-fashion isn't because he "hasn't been in college long enough to commit them". LOL that you defensively act like Winston's behavior is not only acceptable for a college student but that it's typical as well. Gimme a f***ing break. Can you get any more irrational and illogical? People are supposed to grow MORE mature, MORE responsible, and behave with a GREATER degree of decency & accountability the further they get from their teenage years, not LESS. Your analogy is just ridiculous on so many levels. Firstly, the overwhelming majority of good kids DONT get in trouble with the law by the time they're 16. Secondly, Winston isn't 16 anymore; he's in goddam college, and most normal college kids would get expelled, suspended, or have scholarships revoked for acting like Winston has. If you wanna use an accurate analogy involving a baby and a 16 year old, it would be how the 16 year old was afforded 16 years to quit sh**ting his pants and pissing his bed, yet Winston metaphorically still sh**s his pants and wets his bed, meanwhile Watson is already out of diapers.




Chris, you just finished telling me why DGB concerns you and represents a risky draft pick, and it's not because he pushed his gf down her stairs. It's because you don't trust his decision-making ability, his character, or what he might do once a bunch of zeros are added to his bank account. Now, Jameis's actions/decisions might not have been as bad as DGB's domestic violence incident, well except for the rape that allegedly "didn't happen", but they have occurred with a greater rate of frequency, which some might find even more alarming. At least DGB was given a reason to mature, reform, and learn the definition of accountability, as he was dismissed from his university for his actions, knowing that he embarrassed himself, his family, and his program in the process and knowing that he let down himself, his teammates, coaches, program, university, and his family. What punishments did Winston receive to promote reform?... -a mere 1 game suspension that he still showed up fully dressed to? That's pretty insignificant, and we know he treated it insignificantly because he showed up fully dressed out. Most players understand their suspension and what it entails, and they act in accordance with its punishment. They understand a suspension means they are not part of the team that day, that their actions have cost them that privilege. Not Winston. Instead, he decks himself out in full gear, helmet on head, chinstrap buckled, and his right forearm padded as if he's about to take on a linebacker. Reserve players stand around the sidelines in full gear [not wearing their helmets of course, because they're not idiots], and even though they won't see action that day, they're still a part of the team and are treated as such. That's what Winston treated his suspension like, like he wasn't suspended but rather had his starting job taken away for the day and was just like every other reserve relegated to the sideline that day. The gross display of ignorance & arrogance and his failure to grasp the concept of accountability and punishment is mind-boggling. The only way he could've defied his suspension any more is if he ran out onto the field and tried to take a snap.

If Winston were a normal person entering the job market out of college, there's not a company that would hire him for a responsible position with his checkered past that resembles that of a juvenile delinquent more than it does a college student...... and that's exactly why some teams picking in the first half of the draft will leave him off their board in the 1st round.

 

Wow, can we get a system that gets a QB 293 total yards, 3 TD's, and a 123 rating?

 

No it pretty much is because of his history of violence against women which includes busting a door in right on a girl's face when she refused to let him in, knocking her down a flight of stairs, then going upstairs to his girlfriend's room and dragging her out by the throat. That, uhh, yeah that's pretty much what I'm concerned about with DGB.

As for your account of the rape incident, to me it shows that you actually haven't investigated or read up on it. You just know he was accused of rape. I have no skin in this game or love for Florida State. I've looked at all of the police documents in that case. It was bogus. Her story kept changing. She claimed that Jameis Winston's roommate was a knight in shining armor trying to stop Jameis from having sex with her to where Jameis felt the need to bring her to the bathroom to have sex with her so he could close the door and his roommate couldn't keep trying to save her. Except that knight in shining armor did nothing of the sort, told police that what really happened was she got mad because he kept coming into the bedroom with a video camera to film them and even tried to join in for a threeway. Oh and then there's the fact that she had semen on the shorts she was wearing that night, and that semen belonged to neither Jameis Winston nor his supposed knight in shining armor roommate. Oh yeah and I almost forgot her lawyer asking Winston's attorney (the extremely well respected David Cornwell) for $7 million to make this all go away, and when he refused they went to the press the next day.

As for the "obscenity" one, I think is dumb that anyone would think he should be in trouble for that. It's a free ****ing country. If he wants to shout a popular college meme so be it. Same with the showing up in helmet in pads to the game thing. Born of ignorance. They'd previously had a player suspended for a game and he wore his helmet and pads to the game. He shows up to his locker and his helmet and pads are lined up for him to wear just like normal so what's he to think? I think it's kind of dumb to focus on that.

I'm not gonna argue with the other stuff though. He's done some dumb things. Yet so did Cam Newton at this stage of his college career. You could absolutely have listed out Cam's various incidents and shenanigans in a list at least as impressive as Winston's. People said the same about Ryan Mallett, it's been how many years and he's been a model citizen? Hell Dan Marino was a coke addict in college.

I'm not going to pretend Winston is rosy or that DeShaun Watson doesn't have that advantage over him. I took issue with your implication that Watson watches more film or studies the finer points of his craft while Jameis Winston does not. That's just an incorrect assumption.

 

I couldn't care less, especially when it's not in response to you.

 

Right, but if DGB learns from his action and makes a strong attempt to better himself and stay on the straight & narrow, and he successfully does so until May 2016, would you still be averse to drafting him, so much so that you remove him from 1st round consideration?

 

What did Jameis do to stop his roommate from filming it or joining in?.... and why did Jameis's roommate believe it was acceptable to film him having sex and join in on the fun?... and do you not think it suggests something about Jameis's character that he's choosing to get involved with already jizzed up whores?

I didn't say anything about Jameis needing to get into trouble for it. You're right, it's within his rights to publicly shout whatever he wants... just as it's within an NFL team's or employer's right to hire [draft] or not hire whoever they want.

Not disagreeing with that, but Cam was dismissed from UF and forced to take the long and humbling road to work his way back. Cam was forced to face reality and learn what accountability & responsibility mean, and I bet he'd say the whole process shaped him into the man he's become. He couldn't afford to keep screwing up. That's not the case with Winston. Mallett applies to what I'm saying. He might be a model citizen now, but he was given a strong reason to become one. Because of his actions, he was passed over until the 3rd round instead of being drafted early by a QB-needy team looking to get him on the field as a rookie. He paid a big price. He took a 4 year detour to get where he should've been as a rookie- in a position to compete for a starting job, and he had to reform because there's no way he'd have an NFL career as a backup QB facing a second cocaine stint. Winston can obviously change his behavior, but what catalyst is there to encourage it or scare him to?

I'm sorry if the wording misled you. Like I said, I wasn't suggesting Jameis doesn't watch film. I know he does, however, as we've seen, watching film doesn't preclude him from doing dumb sh** or acting like a turd. My comment was merely a character reference, suggesting that while Jameis is busy doing dumb sh** like screaming profanities in public, DeShaun is busy conducting himself accordingly [which I used "studying film" to represent].

 

Can't take a joke I see, makes sense.

 

You shouldn't be capable of having an opinion this horrible. A jizzed up whore? I'm far from a social justice warrior but **** shaming no es bueno.

 

sorry little bro, didn't realize it was you at first... with the name change and all.

 

no shaming. The world needs more of 'em bless their hearts. Just saying it's not a good idea for a young prominent figure who's yet to sign his first major contract to get involved with them considering the ramifications involved, one of which of course being extortion.

 

I'm pretty comfortable stating that if the details I've outlined of the incident are true, then absolutely he is not a 1st round prospect for me no matter how many times he goes on Oprah to cry and say how much he's learned since then.

That sh-t isn't some gray area where the girlfriend is slapping or hitting the guy and the guy gets physical back, ends up in jail, etc. What I detailed is straight up Lawrence Phillips sh-t.