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Can a leopard change his spots?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If it was 2002, Nails played every game until tearing his Achilles in the 15th game.
     
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  2. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Good thing then that you're not paying it.
     
  3. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think it has to do with the actual money spent as much as it has to do with the misallocation of team resources (salary cap). I wasn't ready to write him off last year but he clearly did not perform up to his numbers, this year is a different story. Let's just all hope he continues it through the next 2/3 of the season then we can all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya".
     
    Fin D likes this.
  4. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    You realize the NFL has a salary cap?
     
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  5. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    His salary was $60 mil for 2013? I did not forget it, because I didn't pay it and I don't care. Most of the top tier UFAs don't produce commensurate with their big contract. I think it is silly to expect since Wallace makes double of what Hartline makes, for example, that he should produce double in numbers or else he did not live up to his salary. I look at any player by what he does between the lines, regardless of his contract overall, or salary for that specific season.
     
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  6. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Duh.
     
  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He barely caught 50% of his passes, was top 10 in drops and top 5 in interceptions thrown on targets at him(which was nearly double his touchdowns). He was proportionately less productive and less efficient than basically every pass catcher on the roster, and the QB rating on targets at him was among the worst in the league.

    That's not even taking into consideration his **** work ethic, attitude, and wildly inappropriate cost
     
  8. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    We overpaid. Get over it! I am very, very, very glad he is on the team this year. Playing well.
     
  9. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Hated him last year...dig him this year...totally surprised at his increase in effectiveness and umph at taking on tacklers. He and Landry giving us reason to hope at the WR position.
     
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  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There's more then ample grounds to consider opportunity costs and alternatives given those circumstances. They're not entirely sunk costs, nor are they irrelevant.
     
  11. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Getting a better player more cheaply is something that very much on the table. If you have no taste for people discussing team building and personnel issues you're probably posting in the wrong place.
     
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  12. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Very proud of Wallace. Would love to know what helped the lightbulb come on.

    Lazor? Tannehill? Something else? Combo of things?
     
  13. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    Ok, I will bite. Name one that was available and brings close to the same schematic impact with similar performance.
     
  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Cordarelle Patterson, Keenan Allen. Hell, Kenny Stills at his current pricetag would probably be preferable to Mike Wallace at his pricetag.
     
  15. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    he had little ground to stand on after all his drops last season. nice to see him worth his money.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    patterson should convert to running back..lol..

    I had allen ahead of patterson by a sizable amount.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    its obvious from lots of comments over the years that the payer has taken a different approach to is craft in practice..

    the deep stuff will come, take care of the little details now and it will open up i promise.

    I think he will wind up with 1200 yards and 10 tds.
     
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  18. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The line left to right was Dixon, Nails, Ruddy, Todd Perry, Todd Wade, so you are likely correct.
     
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  19. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think that's the scope of it. I'd go so far as to say that a wide variety of alternates would be beneficial. You would be better off not attempting to spend that significant a resources than it would be to get Wallace. Signing no one, signing cheaper and temporary and then addressing it the next year was a better option.

    I would in fact rather have Ted Ginn's performance in 2013 for his cost than I would Wallace for his.
     
  20. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    There is no way Ireland was going to draft Patterson. There was no way that that the Viking would have traded him this year, so this option is not reasonable. While I usually hate the Football Outsiders WR rankings, it is telling they list Hartline above Patterson. I reject this option.

    Keenan Allen is not outperforming Wallace this year. Ireland missed on Allen, but he missed on a lot of players. Allen was not available, so I reject this option.

    Ireland could have drafted Stills. He did not, so he does not count. Further, Stills is no where near a number one receiver. Wallace performance this year is closer to a number one than any of his previous years. He is expensive, but he is clearly superior to Stills even at his current price.
     
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  21. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    He did it before and I gave him major props for doing so. I still do and you're right that others should do the same, but I'm not holding my breath.:up:
     
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  22. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Some people here show character, whilst some others.......uggh!!
     
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  23. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Those other rookies weren't better alternatives or alternatives at all because we drafted James and desperately needed to do so and he's been very good for a rook. It was a good plan. Let the accountants worry about the contract. Just enjoy.
     
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  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Not sure how your sig is punishment for the GB loss. I would totally wear that as punishment.... and possibly the jersey too. :shifty:
     
  25. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    This is where we disagree. You have to pay for performance above average. Wallace's performance is double the performance of Ginn. I would argue it is better than that. Given this evaluation, Wallace should earn at least 2.5 times Ginn's salary. That would put his expected salary at 7.5 million a year.
     
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  26. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't understand why people are acting like Wallace's contract is a matter between the owner and his accountant. It absolutely effects the product you put on the field when you're paying what, like 10% of your cap space yearly to a guy underperforming?
     
  27. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sync with receivers is learned behavior. I have a suspicion that we have not yet seen the best that Mike Wallace can deliver.
     
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  28. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    I believe most fans want to win a few playoff games and maybe go to the Super Bowl. I want this to happen. The immediate question is do we have the talent to accomplish this feat. You are asking whether we can maintain a winning tradition over an extended period of time. If your focus is winning some playoff games, then salary management is not the immediate concern.
     
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  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    but you think Ted Ginn doesn't affect the product on the field?

    You can put all the inexpensive Ted Ginn's on the field you can find and it still won't give you wins. Winning requires talent, and if you don't have it at a particular position like WR that's comprised of 5 to 6 players, then TALENT needs to be infused into it, period. If the only way that can be accomplished at the time is by adding Mike Wallace, then that's what you do. You can't afford to throw Ted Ginns at the positions just because they're cheap. Cheap doesn't equal success. It just equals cheap. If the position weren't neglected in the draft for so long, it wouldn't have required drastic measures. If your car is on fumes and you're about to run out of gas, can you afford to bypass all the nearby stations in order to hit one 10 miles away that's significantly cheaper? Nope. The thought of Ginn & Hartline as our starting duo is vomit worthy. No offense is producing points with that nonsense, yet you say Wallace is underperforming? :unsure:

    And how the heck is Wallace "underperforming"? He's efficiently moving the chains among the best of them. He's tied for 8th in TDs with 5 [in 6 games], and 3 guys ahead of him with 6 TDs have yet to have a bye; his yards per game are on par with Colston, Graham, Roddy White, Michael Floyd, Vincent Jackson, Pierre Garcon, Wayne, Sammy Watkins, Randall Cobb, and Julian Edelman; and the offensive production with him as the top receiver is 24.5 pts/game, by far the highest average since Marino's '95 offense averaged 24.9... and is significantly more than it was when Hartline was the "top receiver" in 2012 [18.0 ppg]...... but yeah, somehow the most productive and most integral receiving target on the offense is underperforming. Even without Tannehill connecting on deep balls this year, Wallace is STILL performing at a level CONDUCIVE TO SUCCESS, evident by those 24.5 pts.

    In fact, Wallace is currently either outperforming or noticeably outperforming Roddy White [just signed to a $30 million extension at 32 years old], Vincent Jackson [$55 million/5yr], Pierre Garcon [$42.5M/5yr], Cruz through 5 games [$46.0M/5yr], Bowe [$56.0M/5yr], Harvin [$67.0M/6yr], Decker [$36.0M/5yr], Marshall [$39.0M/4yr extension], Greg Jennings [$45.0M/5yr], Fitzgerald [$128.0M/8yr], DeSean Jackson [$24 million/3yr], Colston [$36 million/5yr], Crabtree [$32.0M rookie contract], Stevie Johnson [36.0M/5yr], Welker [$12.0M/2yr], and Brian Hartline [$30.0M/5yr].... so just stop.

    The only high dollar receivers outperforming Wallace are Antonio Brown [who never hit FA], Jordy Nelson [never hit FA], Calvin Johnson [never hit FA], Andre Johnson [never hit FA], Golden Tate, Steve Smith, and Emmanuel Sanders [but has Peyton Manning], none of which Miami could've obtained last year. There's not an infinite amount of receivers out there of every imaginable ability and cost to where you can simply pick the one matching your exact criteria and price range. I get it, you want a $10 million receiver who plays like a $50 million one.... well so does every team. But where is that guy? Point him out to me. They rarely exist, and if it were known in advance that he'd be playing like a $50 million receiver, he'd be getting paid like a $50 million receiver. As far as Miami is concerned, the team desperately needed talent at WR, and they needed a playmaker for the offense. Unfortunately the pickins' were slim and Wallace represented the best available, so we went after him. If you wanna complain about someone who is overwhelmingly not worth his contract, is underperforming, and is taking away from money that can be spent elsewhere, it's Hartline and his $30 million. Wallace's $60 million to help get an anemic offense to 24.5 pts/game and climbing now seems worthwhile in hindsight..... but apparently you'd rather be back at 19 pts/game so that you could pay Ted Ginn $3.5M to destroy Tannehill's career and replace Jarvis Landry as the punt & kick returner despite Landry being the NFL's #1 KO returner [31.2 avg] among all players with 10+ returns.

    $3.5M for Ted Ginn is flat out wasting money. Just flush it down the toilet with last night's corn beef and hash. That leaves $8.5M. You could spend that on one player [regardless of position] who is probably worth $7.5M and will be lucky to perform at the level Wallace is currently performing at, so I fail to see why you have such an issue with Wallace's contract.
     
  30. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Dude, even despite his already decent production, the guy has been, as my man Sec said; college open many many a time. There's many points to Wallace left on the field. Despite all of that, some still had their comments that he doesn't fight for the ball nor plays hard, etc, etc, etc.. He's obviously, if you watch the games, has shown a lot of good in those departments. C'mon man, just have the juevos to give him some props or just keep sounding very agenda based or whatever. Now, because it has nowhere else to go, the whole argument has come down to the contract. LOL. I bet you that works itself out. We'll see.
     
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  31. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You don't pay Calvin Johnson money for "above average" performance.

    Again, Ginn was much more efficient than Wallace. You could get Ginn the number Mike Wallace put up last year. He'd become less efficient, but would he be Mike Wallace 2013 bad? I'm not sure.


    That's half of what Wallace is getting paid this year, and significantly less than any other year in the length of his contract.
     
  32. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can't justify Wallace through a cascade of illusionary and increasingly absurd allusions to points/yards left on the field. He's improved on some of the wildly objectionable aspects, but he's still not particularly productive.

    The argument on the value of Wallace's contract fundamentally comes down to contract, it's absolutely bizarre and nonsensical that it's being treated as a non-issue.
     
  33. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    The top base salaries for this year are Wallace, A. Johnson, V. Jackson, Bowe, Marshall, Garçon, Harvin, and Colston. The Dolphins are far from the only organization that pay veteran receivers acquired from FA. Wallace is outperforming most of these receivers.

    The top 10 average salaries (better ranking) are C. Johnson, L. Fitzgerald, Wallace, Bowe, V. Jackson, Harvin, Marshall, J. Nelson, A. Johnson, and Jennings. Wallace is performing fairly well versus this list of WRs. There are clearly better receivers on this list, but he matches up reasonably for veteran FA WRs.

    There are definitely some teams that have an advantage because they did a good job drafting WRs, but that was a lost cause with Ireland running the show before this year. I suppose you could say never sign a FA WR. I do not agree with that approach.
     
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  34. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The fact that there are other terrible situations in terms of contract vs. performance is an awful reason to continue tolerating this one. Half those teams on the list should be trying to escape from those situations. There's a very good reason that the Seahawks escaped from it. You can't sit there and eat a **** sandwich like that with a grin.

    It doesn't matter if you can't draft an elite wide receiver. This still wasn't a good alternative.
     
  35. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    LOL!! There's no illusions and nothing here, but the truth my man. Admit it or not. I don't give a hoot. It's a fact that there were many points/yards left on the field. Fact. Anyone with the slightest shred of common sense or just simply good eyesight would admit this to be true. That's not even the only part. He has shown many examples of skills contrary to yours and others agenda and constant blind beliefs, Have the character to admit it or just keep reducing yourself and your argument and hate of Wallace.to complaining about his contract. Completely transparent and laughable bro.
     
  36. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    The point is that Wallace's contract is not as bad as you make it out to be. A comparison of FA agent contract's illustrates this point. Are there better situations out there? Yes, there are. That does not mean it would be a good idea to release Wallace next year.
     
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  37. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What you're citing involved incredible contortions of reality that ignored the reality of coverage, the nature of reads and in some cases even if the ball was in the process of being thrown in order to pretend like Mike Wallace would somehow produce(much less is capable of producing) at some absurd level. A level that there's nothing whatsoever to suggest he's capable of even during his career best.
     
  38. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thats not proving your point, that's noting there are other bad contracts. Most of the guys you compared him to are still making significantly less, and the contract is still bad even in the context of just recent big money deals at other positions
     
  39. ElNino

    ElNino Well-Known Member

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    Is Wallace making more money than he should? Probably. But i respect the fact that he appears to be putting in the commensurate effort rather than cashing in and cruising along. Obviously he's no Calvin Johnson (who has not guaranteed success for his team) physically but as long as he produces i'm not complaining. Also, we were able to sign a veteran LT,S,RB and others in the offseason without cap problems.

    I'd prefer overpaying wallace a little than being overly cheap and not landing any helpful free agents, as long as the cap portion of it is handled properly.
     
  40. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Awesome post bro
     
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