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Im sorry tannehill forgive me

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Kud_II, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    And yet if you compare Henne and Tannehill for their first 40 games, their stats look eerily similar. In fact, Henne was a top 5 QB in the league in year 3 until he got hurt, and that's despite the horrible coaching that was forced down his throat ("Throw the touch pass 20 times a game...and we don't care if it's your worst throw!"). Once they opened up the offense to suit his skill-set though, he was putting up huge numbers.

    All I'm saying is that if you want the "doubters" to praise Tannehill's recent growth, then don't try to turn this into a "told you so" type of conversation. Because we "told you so" that Tannehill would suck and so far, he's self-destructed down the stretch in 2 of his 2 full seasons. So that game can be played two ways and it's not getting us anywhere.
     
  2. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    If this is how we act after a win then we're no better than Jets fans.


    My two cents via iPhone.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Can you post these 40 game stats? Tannheill just played his 40th NFL game.

    Chad Henne as a Dolphin never ended a season with more touchdowns than interceptions. Also, how bad was 2011 when a 79.0 rating is a top five QB in the league.

    Of course Henne was never top 5 QB in the league.
     
  4. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The point has always been that the stats are the poorest indicator. They're simple so people use them but they ignore skills and circumstances. I just said don't base an analysis on stats and the first thing you pull out is a comparison of his and Henne's stats? If you do that then there will be peaks and valleys and ridiculous over-reactions. That's why even an accomplished guy like Rodgers tells fans to "RELAX".
     
  5. vizi0n

    vizi0n Boom.. Club Member

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    Statistical gymnastics to make him look bad are always entertaining......

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
     
  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    No you couldn't. People weren't asking for Henne to be given any more time than was typical with the league. If you're not prepared to allow a young player the appropriate amount of time it often takes for development to occur, then you don't draft him. BTW, I love how you conveniently ignore the fact that most of us who were willing to give Henne 2011 did so because we didn't believe the 1st round QBs being discussed [Ponder, Locker, Gabbert, Mallett] and the available veterans [Kolb, Flynn, Young, Orton, Palmer] were the answers, which they weren't. We were suggesting to be patient and find the RIGHT GUY rather than panic and grab Mr Right Now, and because Miami took that approach, it left us free to draft Tannehill in 2012. If things were done your impatient way, Miami would've sent its 2012 1st rounder to Cincy for Carson Palmer and there'd be no Tannehill.

    And yes, it is funny how some people's minds work- "but-but-but fans already had this argument about Henne, Beck, and Fiedler". :001_rolleyes: It's funny that some people give so much credence to their own opinions that they think it overrides league norms. For instance, you said a few weeks ago- "Personally, I've seen what I need to see [from Tannehill] so I don't need to reserve judgement till the end of the year." "I think it's fair for someone to pin judgement after 2 years and 5 games." These statements are premature in nature by NFL standards, and people have been telling you and others this fact for years. Now here's Tannehill- showing us yet again the importance of patience, showing us yet again why talented players should be afforded the same amount of time that it's taken others at their position to emerge.

    You think your Henne comments are cute but they're not. What you've actually done is show us that young players aren't always what they appear. There you were, just 4 games ago strongly believing Tannehill = Henne. 37 games into his career you thought his book was written. What you've done however is effectively show us exactly why every Chad Henne should be allowed his third year as a starter- so that he has sufficient time to show us if he's actually a Ryan Tannehill instead. You've shown us that it's worth putting up with every Chad Henne if it means not shortchanging ourselves a Ryan Tannehill. You've shown us that my philosophy toward Henne was in fact correct.
     
  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I understand what you're saying and I agree about it being a serious problem during his first 2 years, but without improved and consistent mechanics, none of it matters. When Matt Stafford's mechanics are off, it doesn't matter if he has Calvin Johnson. When Nick Foles' mechanics are off [like they've been much of this year during his 81.5 rating and 10 INTs], Chip Kelly's offense doesn't save him. Tannehill's improved surrounding cast, upgraded protection, and new offensive scheme have put him in better position to succeed and maximize his potential, but it's still up to Tannehill to make the throws. They don't just complete themselves.

    Sorry but Taylor wasn't a scapegoat. It was obvious watching Tannehill's mechanics the first 2 years that they were lacking, as well as weren't improving at the rate they should've been, and that was because of coaching..... and we know it was because of coaching because this year Tannehill has shown that he does in fact possess the aptitude to correct his mechanics and can do so in a relatively short period of time. Without these consistent mechanics, fans would still be talking about Tannehill not being the answer despite the improved protection, surrounding cast, and OC. So no, Taylor isn't #57. He was #1. Miami can buy a WR and LT. They can buy an OC. They can draft a RT and WR. They can't buy or draft QB mechanics.
     
  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    . The point is, and the sign of being a good evaluator is projection..Rafael and Todd and others were strict on their stance while the issues your speaking of we're happening..the faults and inconsistencies did not alter their projection.

    I'm somewhere in the middle on this..I've talked about tannehill in glowing terms ( unprecedented prospect who went from big time conference college receiver to big time conference Qb, to pro Qb, it's never been done) to saying that if he doesn't get his legs involved in his game he's not gonna be the franchise...Always said that Ryans evaluation was not about whether he couple win games and play, it was always about whether his game could win playoff games where the tempo move up another level.
     
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  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    No. they. don't. Why do you make stuff up when the stats are right there for all to see?


    LOL. What don't you get about player DEVELOPMENT?! There's an UNDERSTANDING that comes with drafting a QB instead of grabbing a veteran retread, and that understanding is that he will more than likely take a few lumps and experience some inconsistency his first few years, and anyone who doesn't understand this well-known fact probably shouldn't be talking on NFL fan forums about QB play. Yet here you are, acting as if it's atypical for Tannehill or any young QB to not be playing at a Pro Bowl level his first few years. So no, this game can not be played two ways, and that's because Tannehill supporters weren't silly enough to believe that he should be operating at a Pro Bowl level his first 2 years. Water is wet, dude. It's supposed to feel that way, so stop trying to argue that there's a problem just because it doesn't feel like cardboard.
     
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  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    My stance on Tannehill hasn't changed. I wanted to draft him in the top 10 because I thought he possessed All Pro potential and the type of brain that could one day perform Brady & Rodgers level stuff. I still think he possesses it. However, I know he has a ways to go to reach his full potential, that not all of the journey will fall squarely on his shoulders, and that there's also a chance he might never reach the potential I think he has. As others have pointed out, he's undergone a fairly steady rate of development, so as long as that development continues, I'm not gonna bother myself with thoughts about his future every time he has an off game or whatever.
     
  11. Dansar

    Dansar Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It really looked like Wallace was going for the one handed ESPN highlight catch on that should have been 4th touchdown!!! Hope he learned something I have been a real fan of his this year but that irked me.
     
  12. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't want you and I to get into this again. So I'll leave it at this.

    I don't like you.

    I don't like the fact you call people out and when someone does it to you, you get pissed off and find some straw man argument or technicality game of semantics.

    The point of the post was that you're calling people out. We all could have done the same to you about numerous players, including Henne. The other point was to recognize the play of Tannehill and credit to those posters that kept telling us to hang on with Tannehill.

    When you evaluate players, you'll never bat 1.000. I understand that...difference between you and I is that I don't sit behind a keyboard and call everyone out on their misses.

    I'm happy as hell we're winning. I'm happy as hell our QB is playing well. And I'm happy as hell to have been wrong about the guy if he keeps it up and gets us into the playoffs. It's been a fun ride from a fan's perspective.
     
  13. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    TBH we don't know what Taylor has or has not done to help Tanny's mechanics. People hear that he is Sherman's son-in-law and assume he has no worth. But for all we know Taylor may be pretty good at his job but like Tanny needed to get out of Sherman's shadow. Whether he is retained after this year will say a lot about how Lazor views his contribution.
     
  14. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    My only problem with Tannehill is he refused to run. Now, he's running and unsurprisingly (to me) we're starting to win.

    It took 3 years, but we're finally seeing the benefits of drafting a QB with 4.5 speed. Unleash him because that run threat opens up an entire new world of possibilities. Yesterday was beautiful football. It was actually fun to watch an entire game of Phins offensive football. I can't remember the last time I could say that.

    Keep the party going. Fins Up.
     
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  15. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    LOL.. I love reading this. Do you realize every quarterback lauds down with a great front four?
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Again, I disagree.

    All the correct QB mechanics in the world can't make a WR catch a ball, get YAC, not fall down, get open, etc. Nor will all the proper QB mechanics in the world make a clean pocket, not have a jailbreak every obvious passing play, allow for a running game to take pressure off of QB, etc. Nor will all the proper QB mechanics in the world make an OC call the right plays at the right time, stop abandoning the running game, stop using long developing plays, not allowing the QB to roll out or run it, etc. Asking for perfect mechanics in the midst of all that other stuff is like trying to work on your putting game without having clubs and a ball.

    Should Taylor have been working on mechanics? Yes, absolutely, no question. Is that a black mark on Taylor? Yes. Are they the main problems Tannehill faced his first 2 years? No.

    In all honesty, I don't think anyone on staff viewed Taylor as a coach. I think he was viewed as a liaison between Tannehill and the OC. Taylor and Tannehill have a good report and probably a shorthand at this point. I think that's exactly why an accomplished QB coach, like Lazor, decided to keep him on and is continuing to probably use him in that role.
     
  17. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I think RT show some abilities but even the eye test failed quite often (on bad throws and inconsistent decision-making).

    But, as Belichick said about New England - 7 wins means nothing. It's what happens from here on out. Until RT does it for an entire season where he is now doesn't matter.

    For sure, things are changing for him and he's improving. There is real hope for RT to become a top tier QB.

    The biggest change for RT, imo, has been twofold: 1) the offensive line (they are on pace for giving up 34 sacks, 24 less than last year - that's a huge bonus for a QB); 2) Lazor's offense and play calling.

    Now as RT gets more confident, he makes better decisions. I thought the scramble and TD pass to Matthews was a really good sign. I also think the run option plays that are put in actually are helping give RT more confidence in the pocket. The more you run the ball the more comfortable you get with scrambling.
     
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  18. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I've been one of the biggest vocal supporters of RT17 we have . but guess what.. He can't hang his hat on this game. He could have a bad game against Detroit. Just be patient with the guy is all I've said.. Or any one of a bunch who have stuck with him. it's not.. Nor should it ever be who is right or who is wrong. We have a great team that I personally love to watch. It's a team we can be proud of. wait till Ryan has an entire off-season to marinate in an offense like this... Where he's not learning it.. He's perfecting it. Enjoy this season.. But next season is gonna be special. New stadium.. Next season we take our place at the top of the NFL. Feel it.. Savor it.
     
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  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No the eye test did not fail. Emotions of the fans overrode the eye test.
     
  20. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I gotta agree with this completely. I cant tell you how many times alot of people would harp ..and harp..and harp...about how inaccurate he was, when if they just actually looked around at the NFL, they would see NOBODY puts the ball in a perfect spot all the time.

    People were so busy *****ing, they couldn't see the small things Ryan was doing to get better. Remember the first half of the NE game, and all we heard was, his passes are late, are behind the WRs? Not saying that very much anymore. Know why? Its not just 17, the WR's have gotten much better at running their routes correctly.

    To many people dismissed entirely that it was a completely new offense, and there was going to be a learning curve. One of the greatest offensive minds in the game, Bruce Arians, said YOU CANNOT EVALUATE A QB IN A NEW SYSTEM TILL AT LEAST 8 GAMES IN. But people wanted to evaluate 17 2-3-4 games in. Why? Whats the rush to give him a label? I fully expect 3/4 of the fans here who are singing 17s praises, will reignite their pitchforks the next bad game he has. AND GUESS WHAT. HES GONNA HAVE ANOTHER BAD GAME. Phillip Rivers just put up a 40 Rating yesterday. We might struggle against Detroit, but that doesnt mean 17 sucks. Detroit has the best defense (rated) in the NFL. They get paid to. Why cant it just be, they made better plays?

    I think thats the biggest lesson to take from this. A player having a bad game, or games doesnt mean they suck. It means the other guy they lined up against had a better game.
     
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  21. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    The Eye Test is and has always been bull****.
     
  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    WADR, suggesting that 'stats are simple' is very ignorant IMO. There is a lot of complexity that can go into quantitative analysis, and you are trying to degrade that into something it is not.
     
  23. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    I am a Tanne supporter, and I agree I really didn't see anything out of the ordinary with his accuracy before (although it's much better now). But Ryan's real problems were feeling the pass rush and buying his team some time by evading the rush. Too often we would see him be statue-esque or curl up into the fetal position. Those really don't have anything to do with learning a new offense imo. Personally, I don't feel like those are innate skills, but many QBs already have that ability coming into the league. It can be learned from experience and it seems he may be getting it finally. He did it yesterday against a poor pash rushing team, so let's hope he keeps getting better at it moving forward.
     
  24. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I think his issue in the past is that when you don't have a consistent pocket you don't get into a groove. In the past he would step up only to find another two rushers flyiflying at him. This season even when he has had a rusher coming at him, he has had time to make a move. I think it took him a few games to get comfortable knowing he wasn't going to be eaten alive.
     
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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Everything is bull **** then as well.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    From what I've seen, I don't buy the "feeling the pass rush" argument either. Did and does he need to improve? Of course, but more times than not it was a jailbreak. If your left and right are cut off all you can do is go forward, but what if that was taken from you too?
     
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  27. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Even if Tanny was still struggling, I'd want him starting all season. We have to know what we have at QB this year, and then plan accordingly for the future. That meant giving him all the starts and seeing if he turned the corner in this new offensive system. So far, the results are looking good. No need to spend high round resources to bring in QB competition, instead you can use that pick/money to build/improve another part of the team.
     
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  28. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO the inconsistency label was always inaccurate. It was yet another thing incorrectly tied to stats. All QBs have bad throws. That's true even of elite QBs. RT didn't have more bad throws than most, in fact, I would say he had fewer than all but the very elite QBs. But people would compare stats from one half and say he was better or worse. Most often the difference was in whether the receiver made the catch or had a drop. RT was playing consistently. Now he did have some questionable decisions. Again all QBs do and QBs in new systems will have more than usual.
     
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  29. Hobiesailor

    Hobiesailor Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Yes, he is. But I can remember Jay Fiedler going down and have to play Ray Lucas and losing out on the playoffs that year because he sucked so bad. Not consitently drafting QBs that could take over for marino was part of our problem after he retired. The phins should always be looking to draft a QB that has potential, because worst comes to worst, you trade him off like the Pats have done with Cassel, et. al.
     
  30. Hobiesailor

    Hobiesailor Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I think the not running the last 2 years has been a huge help for him though. Washington allowed RG3 to run as much as he wanted his first season, and what did that get them? An injured QB that is now in his 3rd season learning how to throw from the pocket. Tannehill learned his first 2 seasons to read the defense from under center and not take off and run and it is paying dividends now. He is using his legs smartly, and using them to create opportunities to pass first and run second if the pass isn't there. The play action/read option also works better because he is so much more of a passing threat than the RG3 types because he learned how to read the defense under center.
     
  31. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    For sure there were plenty of times he had nowhere to go. He's not going to get better at evading instantaneous bull rushes right into his face as soon as he completes his drop, no QB can deal with that. But there were also a lot of times where he would stand still when no one was open and start to panic, but I think he'll get better at feeling it.
     
  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You brought up Chad Henne, not me, and it wasn't just about the stats in either case.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I believe that Rdhstlr23 was actually the one who brought up Henne...
     
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  34. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    It got them to the playoffs, one of the top offenses in the NFL his rookie year, and one of the best (if not THE best) rookie season ever for a QB. Then he got hurt.

    Griffin's problem is he didn't know when to slide and go out of bounds. Hell, he still doesn't. Also, they made the read option their #1 offensive play. I don't want Tannehill to run that much. 4-5 true read options per game is really all i'm looking for. The last few games, that's exactly what's been taking place. Unsurprisingly to me, we've started winning because it's given opposing defenses something to really think about. It's opens up the middle of the field when the LBs have to start thinking about the QB scramble. That's why we are starting to see Landry and Clay come to life.

    I just hope it continues because we're going to be a playoff team if so.
     
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  35. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What is the purpose of all the arguing and hate after
    a 37-0 beat down of the Chargers and our current 3 game winning streak? I want our team & coaches to continue to keep getting better each and every week and if they do we can and will play great ball against any team. It does not matter who was right or wrong as we are all Dolfans and we should stick together no matter what! Talking down to people is not good for any of us...we have enough hate to deal with from opposing teams fans so let's all stick together and enjoy the ride! Also, I am very happy that Tanny and Marino have such a good working relationship and since their teaming up Tanny has become better at every facet of his game and like many kept saying to give him time in the new system with Lazor and sure enough the kid is balling every week! GO FINS!!!!
     
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  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but when you look at Tannehill's complete career, he's consistently been a bottom 5 quarterback. I agree that the stats often lie and you have to judge on what your eyes see, and the Tannehill proponents have said, "Sure the guy caught the pass, but if it was thrown another yard ahead of him, he wouldn't have had his head taken off in the process." Because like it or not, Tannehill has always been excellent at 3 or 4 throws and avoided dozens of others because of accuracy issues. So saying, "He had a bad game" doesn't cut it when he has six average games, three bad games and then one good one...the goal is always to put your team in a position to win. The good or bad doesn't really matter as much as the W, and for a few years now he has not been the answer.

    At the same time, it is impossible not to see the changes he's gone through over the past month...he is literally doing a dozen things that he could never piece together before. From the footwork to going through progressions to planting to throw more accurate passes, the change has been absolutely uncanny. I have no idea if it's just maturity kicking in or feeling comfortable in the pocket...or maybe it's the private lessons from Marino....I have no idea. But the Ryan Tannehill we see on the field today is not the same guy we started this season with. He is clearly evolved into a smart, agile QB who's throwing picture-perfect passes and making all the right reads.

    Like I said earlier, this is not the "I told you so" moment that so many Tannehill fans are hoping for. It was one outstanding, league MVP type of afternoon, but it was also only one game after a few pretty good ones. Everyone here hopes that this is the start of a fantastic new trend from Ryan Tannehill, so why try to throw mud and twist things around to say that he's always been a superstar? It's just plain stupid and a tactic to keep the forum divided.
     
  37. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I think he felt the pass rush too many times last year. Literally. Maybe they beat some sense into him. LoL.
     
  38. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    in what season has Tannehill been a bottom 5 QB?
     
  39. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Obviously stats can be very complex, but people draw simplistic conclusions. That's what I was trying to convey.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Umm, every season?
     

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