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Conservative nature and poor game planning relative to your QB skill set

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Nov 9, 2014.

  1. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    God bless you, I don't understand what all that hatred is about but I hope you can work on it.
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Im blaming the offensive coaches for not using the entire skill set of our Qb to win a football game, is that out of line?, do I have not a legitimate beef after what we've seen transpire the past few weeks?

    Folks think just because he tucked his head between two defenders or got stuffed 1 time when exiting the poctet it's like " see that's what you get when you want him to run".... No.

    This about designing an offense to attack using the full repertoire of the QB that he is..not half the Qb which is what we saw today..

    Are you all gonna tell me that running up the middle at Suh is the right call on the first play of the game, your gonna tell me that having him drop strait back on that series when the defense is frothing at the mouth is the right call.?

    Have any of you really studied bill belicek, Tom Brady,? they will misdirect the fu@& out of you right from the get..because it's how you make the defenders hesitate the most for the rest of the game, and they don't have a Qb who can run east and west and throw on the run lethally..you have to dictate who we are, right from the start, and who he is is a mobile, dual threat Qb.

    Obviously this coordinator does not get it at this point..

    Here's what Is pissing me off so bad, we finally have the talent, it's been a long time since I could say that and now the coaches forget what to do with it and don't attack a defense with everything we got..we know what Ryan's strengths are..we didn't run anything for him, nor did he run anything for himself, if you can logically explain why, in a loss, I'd like to hear it.?

    This should be good, here let me start the sentence for ya, In defeat, We didn't have to use Ryans strengths today because _________?
     
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  3. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    My money is on..... "because during the week Queasy Joe was not confident or comfortable with the idea of playing too aggressively or wide open against such a good defense so he specifically preached a conservative approach to Lazor."

    That's my guess.
     
  4. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Beating New Orleans in the SuperDome would've been huge for the Dolphins confidence. After that loss it seemed our teams attitude changed for the worse. We lost 4 straight and never recovered.
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    that gameplan was plain conservative garbage BK...

    Lol, my head is gonna explode, I'm goin loco mother grabbers, how do you take a perfectly good athletic Qb who is one of the best qbs in football outside the pocket, how do you take THEEEEEE best running Qb, and make him stay in the pocket...LOL.....INSERT EVIL MANIACAL LAUGH.!!!

    How everyone is not on my side here on this blows my mind, I'm not bashing my team or players, I'm stating facts here..this gameplan was a terrible representative of what our Qb has the capability of doing to a defense, and the conservative nature was tangible...disgusted.
     
  6. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    The win streak later in the season including wins at Pitt and against New England didn't count I guess...since they never recovered.
     
  7. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Oh I agree 100%.
     
  8. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Did we make the playoffs? Got 'em
     
  9. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    other than luck i would take tannehill over all of them. wilson is borderline but tannehill's ceiling is way above his. i bet you think bortles, carr, bridgewater, and mettenberger are all busts huh? i mean cmon they havent won anything yet and none of them are going to the playoffs their rookie year
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, cause everyone agrees that the Colts were REALLY that bad the season before they drafted Luck. NO ONE legitimately believes they pulled the greatest tank job of all time. By the way, how was Foles doing this season? Get out of here. How has RG III looked when he has to actually throw the ball?

    I wish that the ignore featured also kept me from seeing this dudes posts when they're quoted. Dude is a troll. It's probably the return of Shouright/DolphansUnite.
     
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  11. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Has Tannehill made it to the postseason? Any Pro Bowls? How is Foles doing this season? Better than Tannehill, before he got injured. I'm not a troll I'm just an honest Dolphins fan who sees the flaws in this team.
     
  12. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    his strength isnt his legs its his arm. he's a pocket QB with escapability. he is not a running back/ quarterback. the read option is dying because defensive coordinators have figured out how to defense against it. This isnt 2013. Even in college, I'm seeing much better defensive schemes against it. By next year or the following it will have gone the way of the wildcat. As to this game, having tannehill roll out with our tackle situation just seemed too dangerous to me. You cut off half the field, you cant rely on your blocking. you are basically inviting a sack or an interception. we played it the right way, it just didnt break for us. everyone knew this was a tough game to win and we played our hearts out. on to the bills, we beat them we're back on track. anyways, love your passion and intensity dj. dont ever lose it
     
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  13. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    coaches were thinking of benching foles. they had already decided not to pick up the option. foles is a disaster this year. if we offered tannehill for foles straight up, the eagles gm would break the sound barrier getting here to sign on the dotted line
     
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  14. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Appreciate the comment without an insult. Still Nick Foles posted a better record than Tannehill before he got injured. 4-2 right?
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    More obfuscation. Foles was a wreck. Would ANY QB make it to a Pro Bowl with issues Tannehill had to deal with since hitting the pros? And why are we expecting that in his third year? He was RAW. Limited starts in college meant a pretty good learning curve in the NFL. Honestly, "fans" should understand this better. It's tiring having to rehash the same **** every time there's a Dolphins loss. Tannehill is progressing nicely. That is not to say he's perfect, or has arrived, cause he has things to work on. But he really shouldn't be compared to Luck, Rodgers, Brees, or any other quarterback. I only ever do it in response to the naysayers when they put those sort of quarterbacks stats up against Tannehill.

    Trooooll. So hard not to respond when I see his posts after they get quoted.
     
  16. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Progressing nicely what does he have to show for it? A 20-21 record & no playoff appearances. As I've stated before Luck, RGIII, Foles & Wilson have playoff appearances and success. Apparently I'm a troll for speaking the truth.
     
  17. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Records aren't dictated by one qb but ratjher the other 21 starters plus the qb in tandem. Is marino a bust because he didn't win a sb? No, he's still the best ever. He was just unlucky enough to never have the running back and defemnse needed to briNg home the trophy. When it coMes to tannehill, its been evident from the beginning of the season when our oline holds tanny shreds the defense and when the oline springs leaks and let's defensive linemen through on a regular basis his effectiveness lessens.how our offense does the rest of the season rests on our offensive line. They are the determining factor in every gm
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Prez, don't tell me that you think this?

    Your going to try to sell me that Ryan is a pocket Qb with escapability?? You know damn well that dude can't escape a pocket with any kind of deftness or consistency, it's def not good enough for you to Include it into your two word description of who he is.

    He can run the read option, but here's the caveat, when he wants to..he can run east and west and throw with the best of them, but here's the caveat, when his coordinator gets his finger out of his *** and calls it 3/4 times a game.

    Read option is not going anywhere, the wildcat simply evolved into the read option, the qbs will continue to come up the ranks who have dual threat capabilities..(see heisman trophy winner) the formation simply destructs the edge..

    Just in case you forgot, Ryan has run the read option about 70 times in his career....6 yard average....8 yard average this year alone...but I know you know that..

    My analysis of Ryan comes down to this..if the coordinator does not incorporate the legs of this player, if he doesn't totally weave the boot, rolls, read option into the gameplan every weak, he's making a very big mistake..

    As far as Ryan goes, he needs to speak up and tell Lazor this, tell him to stop protecting him, and he also needs to run all on his own when he sees a wide open lane..get a first down, and make the defense think twice about turning their back..

    This is something that he is absolutely NOT being conscious about Prez, you think it's ok for this skill set, FOR THIS ATHLETE, to NOT be running at all during a game?, come on man, there's no way you think that's a good philosophy...

    LOL..he didn't run once prez, not once, his coordinator didn't boot or roll him but one stinking time, I time the whole game.!this is not good bro..if we come up short one game of making these playoffs, we're gonna wish he emptied the cartridge..

    Let me make this as simple as I can...

    3 questions.

    1) do you think Ryan can run and throw well going to his left and his right?

    2) do you think Ryan is very effective when he does run the read option?

    3) do you think every Qb should take off and run for a first down when they have a clear lane just in the name of making them think about one more thing?
     
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Please don't let a couple folks derail the main point...Ryan is def progressing, this is about maximizing his talent..
     
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  20. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Wrong kind of defense to run these plays. Detroit is too disciplined. It wouldn't have worked and probably wouldve lead to turnovers
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    probably wouldn't of worked so we didn't even try is not a good enough excuse when you lose..

    Whatta you wanna be, Whatta you wanna turn this kid into?, you want some finesse freakin offense with an athletic Qb who sits in the pocket, or do you want an offense that will utilize all its qbs skill set to win and a Qb who does everything he can possibly do to win a game or get a first down..

    Ryan is a tough dude, no one can question that, but the fact that he has it in his head that he doesn't need to ever run for a first down is pissing me off to no end, and I have no idea why anyone would be ok with this type of Qb who doesn't agree..because playing from the picket is what it's all about is no logical reasoning.

    If you think it's ok, and there isn't a problem???, I wonder what these guys would think about that philosophy, john Elway, joe Montana, Steve young, Drew Bree's, Aaron Rogers, shall I continue?
     
  22. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    No, you should not continue. Your point has been made and understood for weeks now.
     
  23. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    How about we talk about RT missing Wallace on the post route, should have been an easy TD. From the pocket ;)
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    we were at their 19 yard line, the return went to our 18 yard line..jftr.

    I accept your apology.
     
  25. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I don't disagree about the misuse of RT. I just think it stems from Philbin, not Lazor, ultimately.

    Every time Philbin has played the game at 1/4 throttle, seems like Lazor is unhappy about it too.

    By the way, if LAmar Miller was very limited today, that may be why they limited the use of any zone read.... they probably didn;t trust another back to run it well enough with a disruptive Dline penetrating... a missed handoff could be a fumble/turnover.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the point about miller and the read option is valid I suppose but if it's in the gameplan, and your number is called, call the plays accordingly.

    I seriously can't take the lack of a moving pocket with this Qb, and I can't take it that Ryan refuses to run on his own.
     
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  27. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box


    Tend to agree with you, Deej.

    And here's the other thing... even leaving the read option OUT of the equation, if we give the coaches the benefit of the doubt and say they didn't have a healthy back they trusted with the handoffs on it (which would be silly, if that were the reason)... but even WITHOUT the read option, they could have moved Ryan out of the pocket on designed rollouts, and a few naked bootlegs. Against a great D line you MUST move the spot the QB is throwing from.. unless your Oline is HAll of Fame caliber. Which ours is not.

    Besides, as Deej keeps pointing out, Ryan plays better when he gets into his body and moves around. So DESIGN that into the plan.
     
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  28. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    DJ, I totally agree.
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of course he does, I thought we were past that BK, but obviously there was nothing of a design with such creativity in it..

    When used correctly, and when I say correctly I mean at the right times to offset the strengths of the defense and to make them hesitate so they cannot tee off at the pocket, especially considering our interior oline is the weakest part of our team..

    You come out on the first drive of the game, and you misdirect them, you put your cards on the table, you cater to your qbs strengths, you make them not be able to tee off and just beat their man, you make them hesitate, it's not only common sense, it's the smart thing to do..

    Do you think it's safe to say at this point we've identified a couple trends??

    I give you one guess what both of them are?
     
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  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We got about 225 yards of offense today..Wallace is talking about how we cannot continue to stay so inconsistent. and that our defense played great again.

    Listen, for those of you afraid to commit to a dual threat Qb and offense that truly exploits that skillset, how much more evidence do you need..

    We don't move him today, we let him play from the pocket exclusively I might add, what did you get?.. A below average performance right?

    How bout we try it my way...consistently..with real game planning taking advantage of all the skillset has to offer..isn't that the objective? Or is the objective to make whoever into a finesse pocket passer.
     
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  31. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    DJ you know i love you man, but i think we got your point now...apparently the coaching staff sees it different and there is no need to ride on this every week
     
  32. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Does the other team ever factor in our losses? That is do we ever lose or do we just always beat ourselves?

    Last week RT was great now he sucks again. Get over it. Det did this to Rodgers. What? Yeap made him less effective than he had been vs lessor defenses. Good defenses will do that to good qbs bad qbs elite qbs and young growing qbs. We had a chance to win, to be great we need to learn to win those. Again growing either we get there or we fall short. But its a good team in their house and we lost key players.

    Please stop with the 1 play theories. 1 play doesnt win or lose games its an accumulation of plays, yes 1 helps or hurts. But both teams will have plays lleft on the field.
     
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  33. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    refreshing to read stuff like that, yes other QB's have sucked in detroit too, rodgers couldn't get anything going, that read option didn't worked yesterday, the DE's never played the run yesterday, they always went for tannehill on the handoff

    no we never lose because of the other players on the opposing team, its always on us...lol
     
  34. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We've had a couple of gut wrenching loses to Green Bay and Detroit and its easy to just blame play calling or the coaching staff (I've done it for sure). In both games if the offense gets a first down on their last possession we win. The running game wasn't working today and that hurt us on the last series. The defense had to make a stop to win in both games and didn't, our defense has been amazing this year so the coaching staff put the game in their hands twice and we got burned by good offenses, it happens. I'm not a huge fan of conservative offense and I'd like to see Tannehill run more but we lost to two contenders on last second plays so its not like we got beat down, sometimes you lose close games.

    Also, I don't blame any coaching staff for not running their Qb against the Lions. I don't know if anyone else notices it but they "fall" on top of players, "accidentially" twist legs routinely so I'm not sure I want my young Qb running a lot against a team that seems to fairly obviously attempt to hurt other teams players.
     
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  35. Dansar

    Dansar Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I do agree with DJ in the sense that Lazor should of had a better game plan. We all new Suh was a beast and would exploit our interior line, we also know for us to b successful we need to get off to a fast start. The fact is Lazor did Tannehill no favors in those first three series. It was not until we started doubling Suh that we started having success. I like Lazor a lot and feel he has great potential but lets not forget this is his first year as a OC so there is a bit of a learning curve to endure.

    In contrast Detroit knew this was going to be a difficult game to win and game planned accordingly who expected that fake punt call, that was genius really set the tone for them. You would have thought they had the last placed defense not the first the way they gambled.

    That said we were in the game until the end had the lead and were unlucky not to hold on. Detroit and Gbay are probably the class of the NFC and we played both tight. To me this shows we are heading in the right direction, it will be tight to make the playoffs but I am very optimistic our team just has a different character this year, that play by Tannehill to stop the interception was warrior like.

    Lazor needs to come up with better play calling to handle inside pressure so in this regard I support DJ. I do not know enough about the read option to comment but it appears to me that rolling the pocket or misdirection and rolling Tannehill would have worked better to start the game. Easier to say in hindsight but this is not the first time we have seen interior pressure lose us a game.
     
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  36. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    There were two rollout plays. The first one for the touchdown. The second was crushed. The reason the first one worked against the Lions' defense is Lazor carefully reserved for the correct moment. I truly believe that more roll outs would have resulted in more lost yardage. I trust that Lazor knows infinitely more about football than anyone posting on this board.

    The truth is that the Lions are a good team that have an advantage over our team. I am disappointed we did not win, but I am surprised the OL did as well as they did.
     
  37. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The truth of the matter is this team is growing, albeit at a slower rate than we would like, but we are competing against the best teams in the league, a young qb who still needs growth but is progressing. A new OC getting comfortable with the system with the players he has in it. an oline that is improving but hasnt been consistent amongst its players. Finnegan hurts us going out Jamar Taylor and Davis scare the hell out of me. But we are a beast up front.

    we are above 500 vs a strong schedule. could have been better, yes, and wish it was. we will see what kind of heart this team has in the coming weeks, more importantly Thursday
     
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  38. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    If they keep playing as hard as they did yesterday I still have faith. I believe that as long as they keep playing this heard, we can compete with anyone. This is the type of team that just needs to make the playoffs...get on a hot run and who knows. Unfortunately, its a year where making the playoffs may be easier said than done.

    In either case, theres still a lot of good to see. We're right there on the cusp of 7-2 just as much as we are 5-4. They'll learn to win in time.
     
  39. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Have to agree about tannehill.The elite qbs seem to a hit a long pass every game and in a close game that can be the difference from winning and losing.If he hits wallace with that long strike we are not having this conversation.The great ones use every yard on the field and sadly after 3 years tannehill still cannot hit that long pass.The good defenses will take away the short stuff until he starts hitting downfield.I hope it happens for him quickly or we are going to be sitting home in january just like every other year.
     
  40. atomdomb

    atomdomb Banned

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    This is so true. Let's think about the read-option a little bit more since people are crying about not seeing this offensive wrinkle enough against the Lions. First a little talk about the Lion's defense...

    #1 in all the league in yards per attempt. 3.2. This is the best rush defense in football gentlemen.(Denver is also very good) Tanny was just not going to be scampering 30 yards downfield using that pesky read-option. I know that many of you have glorious visions, from the last couple of games, of Tanny bounding like a deer down the middle of the field for 20 or 30 yards. Detroit's defense squashed that happy time for many of you and you so want to go back to that happy time by just running the read-option more.

    #2 - Detroit played the read option already and they lost badly. Well, that proves it. The Dolphins should have done this more. Not so fast. How did Carolina win that game. Turnovers. Period. End of Story. Actually it was turnovers and....passing. Whoops. They passed against the best rush defense in the league? Yup. That doesn't make any sense. Why don't we just run the read-option into the teeth of the defense? Because that would be stupid. Cam Newton stood in the pocket and threw downfield. He rarely rolled out and had one decent read option run for 13 yards. He had 4 rushes for 19 yards on the game. What? No scampers through the tulips down the middle of the field for 20 after a sneaky read option? Nope.

    #3 - Here are the rushing stats for the Panthers. 24 attempts for 62 yards. Keep in mind that Jon Stewart's long run of 22 yards did not come on a read-option play but rather an off tackle run. So that means minus that run the team had 23 attempts for 40 yards. That sounds like fun, doesn't it? Stewart minus that run was 14 attempts for 15 yards. Wheeee, let's run ball some more.

    #4 - To beat the Lions you need turnovers, a pocket, a quarterback with decent presence who can push the ball downfield. That didn't happen yesterday and you lost. Read-option and rolling out has nothing to do with it.
     
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