Thinking it's time to bench Brian Hartline

Wrong. He is on pace for 71 catches, 11 TDs, and 923 yards.

 

Maybe in fantasy football? Touchdowns correlate much more loosely with overall talent than yardage does because you've got guys who are essentially specialists. Your James Jones and Joseph Fauria's aren't suddenly marque players because they're good red zone players.

 

Wallace is a one trick pony...

 

2010 called and said they've got the Mike Wallace you're paying for?

 

You're about a day and a half and a couple dozen posts short on snark on this one.

 

"Duper talked for a while about his playing days. He joked about the practice in which Don Shula put mattresses on the field to practice diving for catches. "I said, 'Coach, I'm doing this because you're the coach; I'd never (dive) in a game,'' Duper said."

nuff said

 

speaking of great catches, did anyone notice Landry catch a kick off (vs Detroit) at the back of the end zone with one hand (no return)?

 

Ya...it was smooth and effortless.

 

Amazingly, Hartline leads the WR corps in total snaps. 528, compared to Wallace, 471, Landry, 355, Gibson, 246, Matthews, 138. Lot of time on the field there for minimal production.

 

Oh I see, it's much better to not lay out for a catchable ball? Perhaps Duper was insinuating that he wouldn't HAVE to lay out for a ball, because he knew he could adjust to a ball in the air. All I'm saying is, that watch multiple games every week, and you'll see receivers on other teams doing more to get at balls that if they were thrown at Wallace, would fall harmlessly to the turf. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Wallace is doing other things well, I'm simply frustrated with his lack of ability to help Tannehill on the deep balls.

Also, I just watched a bunch of Duper's highlights...so awesome. But did see him leave his feet and fall down on at least one catch. LOL. I'm not talking about diving for a ball four yards away...I'm talking about getting a ball that is a yard away. The problem I believe is, Wallace does not catch with his hands. Because of this, he doesn't really go for some of the hands catches that Duper was making so easily.

 

You know the same site that has these snap counts actually tells you how many of those were passing downs, and what the yards per route run are, so you don't actually have to rely on innuendo?

 

All I know is that if it was Marino throwing the deep ball to Wallace and not Tannehill, Wallace would probably have an extra 20 TD catches in his 25 starts with the Dolphins.

Tannehill is effective at the short and mid range passes, but as far as his deep passes are concerned, he basically stinks. The fact Tannehill is so inaccurate on his deep throws is totally on him and it certainly isn't the fault of Wallace.

 

Sounds like something someone on this forum would say, rather than a paid(?) professional(??).

http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/wide-receiver/limit-25/

You can easily pick out a handful of worse examples at wide receiver right there. If you want to put the performance in the context of dollars, he isn't even the worst on the team. That's not even addressing other positions.

 

I believe that you are incorrect in your assessment. I just watched about 15 minutes of highlight film on Duper, much of which was Marino throwing him the ball. Know what I saw? A receiver that adjusted well to balls, extended his arms, and caught with his hands. Know what I didn't see? Mike Wallace. Sure, Marino threw a beautiful deep ball...he's a HoF QB for a reason. The question is, why are we comparing Tannehill to Marino, and then stating that Tannehill is no good because he's not as good as a HoF'er? Another thing, I'd love to see people's reactions if we could pair Danny boy in his prime with Wallace, and then watch Wallace not extend for balls, let balls bounce off his chest cause he can't catch with his hands, and still get overthrown because he can't adjust for balls. Wallace is what he is: fast, but pretty limited on effectiveness on deep balls. Tannehill could be better, I guess, but I don't think Tannehill is the majority of the problem on deep balls to Wallace. The stats are out there for everyone to see, and have been brought up ad naseum on the forum, deep balls to everyone not named Wallace, Tannehill is actually pretty good.

 

Mike Wallace called 2010 and asked for his QB too.

 

I doubt anyone in Pittsburgh would return his call. They watched him under-perform with the same QB before they let him walk, and they've replaced him several times over.

Meanwhile, we're talking **** about Brian Hartline who in 2012 put up deep yardage numbers that Wallace is on pace to match sometime in the middle of his third season here. If he makes it that long.

 

Big Ben seemed to be able of Hitting Wallace deep.The fact is I don't think they throw it enough in games..they say they seem to hit it at practice but that is not the same as getting the timing right in game time situations . I think they should throw 4-5 a game and I think they will start hitting them with more consistency. You don't keep a Bulgatti Veyron in second gear !!!! You gotta open it up and let it Roar !!LET'S GO FINS !!!!

 

I get it. But we are gauging him on his production numbers, why is no one factoring in all the missed deep opportunities due to poor qb accuracy 25+ yards down the field. It has been a circular argument in the past. CK put up some solid numbers comparing QB accuracy at those ranges showing TH isn't THAT bad. I however can't accept that. Wallace had a walk in TD against DET if 2/3 of the league's other QBs throw that pass, maybe even more of them. Then his stats look that much better and we might not be having this conversation about Wallace.

You are correct too, we are discussing and talking poorly about Hartline. That is the point of this particular thread and diverting that negativity to Wallace is overplayed and honestly there are dedicated threads for that too. Can't we talk about the negatives of Hartine's games in a vacuum without bringing others into it?

 

F your lifestyle put your lights out

 

Release yo def!

 

Lol love that skit. Wu Tang Financial.

 

I didn't read any of the threads, but how many targets has Hartline had all season?
To me he hasn't even been a 2nd or 3rd read in this Offense.
Swing passes and Bubble screens seem to go to his side more and he's the down field blocker for 95% of those.

 

That's fine if you don't want to accept them, but the numbers are the numbers. To players not named Wallace, Tannehill has pretty good numbers deep. I'm telling you, go watch highlights of Wallace. Even on the deep ball completions, he very, very rarely catches them out in front with his hands. He runs underneath and catches the ball by using his chest/stomach. I said it earlier, it's like he has T-Rex arms...doesn't extend them to try to make hand catches. He depends on the QB putting the ball close enough to him that he can catch it with his body. That is why Wallace doesn't attack the ball in the air. He's short, and can't leap over a defender AND catch it with his chest.

 

You're making assumptions that I don't think are accurate.

The problem isn't Tannehill, it's Wallace. Hartline was top 10 in terms of yardage on 20+ yard passes in Tannehill's rookie year. His deep attempts to non-Wallace targets are fine. He also was atrocious last year all-around, and given how mouthy he's been lately it's quite likely he goes back into the tank if his job isn't seen as on the line.

It's the same general group issues. You could just as easily discuss how Jarvis Landry, Rishard Matthews, and Brandon Gibson are some combination of mis-utilized and under-utilized by Lazor in the same sense you do Hartline and Wallace, and discuss their costs.

There's also this weird phenomena where even when Hartline was playing well, there was this weird attempt to draw heat away from Wallace by being critical of him.

 

Yeah, it seriously reduces his catch radius by doing that as opposed to a Fitzgerald.

 

The majority of the balls are either severely under thrown or over thrown. I agree that he isn't the best at high pointing the ball but I'm not sure that would have increased his chances significantly to convert the majority of the throws. Maybe the timing is off, but its been off for two years. Wallace is running the same speed. The variable here is Tannehill. I don't get it. I think Omar Kelly tweeted that their chemistry in practice is spot on and they convert for deep completions frequently. Why can't they do that in games?

I want to keep both on the team for the record, and have no issues with either, performance or salary related, which the second part is pretty obvious for Tannehill at the moment.

 

It can be argued that Fitzgerald has a smaller potential completion radius because he can't create the same level of separation as Wallace. When you have 2+ yards on your opponent there shouldn't be anything but a basket catch required. This is the pros. If you under throw that kind of separation and the WR doesn't convert by making a leaping twisting catch back to the ball, it really isn't on the WR.

Can Wallace make those catches when he blanket covered on the sideline? No. He isn't AJ Green, Megatron, or Fitz. You do get it from him occasionally though, but that isn't his game.

 

Are you really arguing that Fitzgerald doesn't get better separation than Wallace? Really? Fitz runs much better routes, and gets plenty open. There is no universe where you have better windows throwing to Wallace over Fitzgerald.

 

You are right. Let me specify, my entire reasoning was behind fly routes. I thought that was clear as we were discussing the deep ball which is pretty much exclusively fly routes. Tannehill doesn't have much trouble hitting deep crossing routes or other horizontal routes. His issues are the vertical routes imo. And I'll take two yard separation over counting on a WR to climb the ladder any day in those circumstances.

 

Let me be specific, also. On ANY route, Wallace is at a disadvantage, with a smaller catch radius, because he has to use his body. What good is two yards of separation if you can't catch with your hands? The ball still has to be perfect, since you're trying to drop it into his chest area...what's that, a two foot square running at high speed? It's a lot different than putting a ball out in front and the receiver reaching out and grabbing it with his hands. Fitzgerald always has a better catch radius due to his routes, and his size. I'll take great routes, great hands, and ability to go up and get the ball over speed any day. If you're lucky you get the freaks like Moss, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson who have it all in the same package.

 

There's a few vids online about RT's deep ball issues to Wallace. Curious to see how many you think those receivers you mentioned would have caught. I'm mobile at the moment, can't post the video.

Whatever though. We have varying opinions on wallace's abilities. Let's leave it at that.

 

Again, it's at very best a joint issue between Wallace and Tannehill, and that's being very generous towards Wallace.

We're in a thread talking about Brian Hartline's total inability as a wide receiver and the guy put up the 8th most deep yards in 2012 with Tannehill. That is something that very much beggars explanation.

If things don't change both of them should be released(Wallace under post June 1st designation). If there's a new offensive coordinator that was willing to use Hartline correctly I could see them offering a restructured contract.

 

Hartline has 43 targets this season so far. In 2012 and 2013 he had 131 and 134 respectively.

 

The fact Lazor rarely even calls for a deep pass is because he knows this is something Tannehill is not efficient at, as an NFL QB. Wallace was signed to provide a deep threat, but it is Lazor's job to run plays which his QB is best able to have success with.

Put Wallace on a team with a QB who has the ability to throw an accurate deep ball and he would certainly be one of the leading receivers in the NFL in regards to TD passes. Because of Tannehill's inability to throw an accurate deep ball, this makes Wallace a bad fit for this offense. Obviously you don't think Wallace is a good NFL WR and you certainly have a right to your opinion. I just disagree and I would take him over any WR now on the Dolphins roster, with the possible exception of Landry, who I feel is probably the most reliable WR on the roster at this time.

 

Again JW, it's the same tired argument, and I'll throw the same answer at you: Tannehill deep to EVERYONE NOT NAMED WALLACE is actually pretty good. The statistics support this. The deep ball doesn't seem to be root of the problem. It's kind of ridiculous that the same broken arguments get trotted out like once a week, from posters that have been around awhile.