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So are you ok with extending Philbin and co?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Dorfdad, Nov 24, 2014.

  1. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    This is a tremendous post. Theres no denying anything you mentioned because its factual, not opinion. I`m not even 100% sure I want Philbin gone but my patience is growing thin with these "near misses".
     
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  2. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    I believe a reasonable head coaching grading system would breakdown the grade as 50% the staff assembled and retained, 25% quality of the game plan assembled week to week, 20% handling of the players, and 5% decisions during the game.

    I would rate him: staff: A-, game plan: B-, handling players: B, and game decisions: C. Total: B

    Using my grading system, I would expect the following grades based upon your paragraph: staff: A, game plan:B+, handling players: ?, game decisions: D-. Even if you gave him a D- for handling players, he probably would get a B- from you on my scale.

    Obviously, I believe game decision making is a very minor part of the value of a coach.
     
  3. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    I think after Philbin gets fired we bring in:

    [video=youtube;ZYSxJgjjJFc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYSxJgjjJFc[/video]

    and Let Tannehill practice throwing bombs all day
     
  4. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    could you please explain your system a little further. I am interested under what criteria you come up with your ratings so I 2 could rate these coaches and others
     
  5. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    If the Dolphins barely miss out on a playoff spot I think the question that will be asked is "How high is this team's ceiling with Philbin at the helm?". Is he the type of coach that can take a fairly talented team and get them to 9-7 or 10-6 but not much more because perhaps he's lacking in some essential qualities that may limit his (and the team's) overall effectiveness? And then if they decide the answer is yes, the question may be "Can you then find a head coach that can squeeze more out his players than Joe could?" There may only be a proven few of those available, if at all.

    IMO, if this team misses the playoffs and the front office winds up deciding a change is needed, I might be inclined to look north. Rex Ryan might be what this team needs. He's someone that could very well keep Lazor and let him and Tannehill continue to grow together, while at the same time re-tool the defense to take advantage of the skill sets of guys like Jordan and McCain.
     
  6. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    Sure. My disclaimer is that I developed the grading approach in 10 minutes. I fully accept that it is not a mature grading system.

    Assembling a top notch staff is the most important job of a head coach. The staff has a profound impact upon the development of players and upon developing a game plan that maximizes players opportunity to excel. This is the reason it is half of my grade.

    The 25 percent grade for grading comes from my recognition that Andy Reid and The hooded one are great coaches that develop consistently great game plans. They help their staffs identify weaknesses in the opponent and customize comprehensive game plans. It is an aspect of how well they lead their organization. This probably where I graded Philbin too high.

    Managing employees is a time consuming skill. Each person is different, and maximizing each person's talent requires custom approaches that do not shake the overall foundation of your organizations culture. It is definitely an art. I believe Philbin is unfairly judged in this area, but I admit I may have inflated the grade here a little bit.

    I do care about game time decisions, but I believe most fans and analyst ludicrously inflate its importance. That is why it receives only 5% of the grade. Finally, I do understand that I have not accounted for player evaluations that support the GM. I did mention it is not a mature grading system.
     
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  7. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    Clearly, I believe the quality of the staff as it grows together makes the ceiling very high.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If this is the case, then why is Philbin getting credit for the likes of Bill Lazor and Mark Duffner but not getting criticized for the likes of Mike Sherman, Jim Turner, etc?

    Philbin hired Mike Sherman. He hired Jim Turner. When he was told to fire them both, he refused. Even after it was clear they were not doing a good job. He refused. He was forced to comply by the owner. And when it came time to hire Sherman's replacement, he offered the job to Ben McAdoo...not Bill Lazor. Bill Lazor has this job because Ben McAdoo said no.

    And Ben McAdoo was offered the job simply because Philbin had coached with him before. Just as he'd coached with Mike Sherman, Kevin Coyle, Ken O'Keefe and Mark Duffner before. So all he's really doing is bringing in coaches that he's coached with before and maybe they end up good, maybe they end up terrible, doesn't matter because he's not actually evaluating he's just pulling in guys he knows.

    When you pick assistants at random, every now and then you stumble on a good one. And then you also stumble on bad ones. The point is there's no intelligent information being applied to the process.

    And that's important because the NFL is a volatile place. When you find a good young offensive coordinator, as we speculate Bill Lazor is exactly that, can you guess what happens next? Both college football and pro football will be looking to hire that guy as their head coach.

    And then what?

    I'll tell you what. You have the same coach who hired Mike Sherman trying to hire Bill Lazor's replacement. You have the same coach that hired Zac Taylor and Jim Turner because one was Mike Sherman's son-in-law and the other was Mike Sherman's first cousin, hiring Bill Lazor's replacement. You have the same coach who offered the job to Ben McAdoo before Bill Lazor, simply because he coached with McAdoo before, trying to hire Bill Lazor's replacement. You have the same coach who would have GLADLY entered 2014 with Mike Sherman still at the helm of the offense, trying to hire Bill Lazor's replacement.

    Good luck with that.
     
  9. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    maybe over the course of the next several weeks we could come up with a way of evaluating coaches. It would be very cool to come up with even more then you have started and allow others input into developing a "thephins.com" rating system where we could plug in Philbin and the other nfl coaches to see exactly where does he fit in. Then we could determine all kinds of things like pay, yrs of contract etc.

    we could then come up with a scenario of what should happen and see if we are correct. Seems like it could be a lot of fun
     
  10. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Why should he get criticized for Sherman? Sherman is the reason we got Tannehill in the first place. Sherman was the right coach at the right time.
    Second, Sherman was instrumental in developing Tannehill. Have you seen any development in Newton, Kaepernick, Manuel? We have a QB who is performing at Luck level, and the talent is not close at baseline.
    And he gets criticized for going 8-8 in the second season with a QB who had no pocket presence, no pocket read and progression experience, no deep ball touch, with a team that was a disaster top to bottom with Parcells dumbarses running around.

    I honestly believe that this coaching staff should pack up and go to a better team, a team that has good front office management, a history of awesome drafts. They should go develop Kaepernick or Newton or Manuel, instead of wasting their time in Dolphin land waiting for their paychecks to be cut because fans are idiots.
     
  11. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    You bring up very good points, but I do not believe it is fair to give him no credit for hiring Bill Lazor. You assume every first time head coach makes good decisions early in their career. I can understand brand new head coach going with people he knows. If you were a new senior manager within any business, would you lean on people you know? The honest answer is probably yes.

    Philbin does deserve plenty of criticism for mistakes with his staff. I stipulate those points Further, I admit my head coach rating was for 2014 season only. He deserves a lower grade for his tenure with the Dolphins. The bottom line is that Lazor is part of the staff this year. I do believe that Lazor wanted to strike while his stock was high, so he was looking for an OC position. It was probably not hard to get Lazor to agree to become the OC, but I doubt he accepts the position unless he has some respect for Philbin. Your willingness to completely discount Lazor's hiring as a atta'boy for Philbin is NOT FAIR!
     
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  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    So Philbin learned so much from his mistake of hiring Mike Sherman that he refused to fire him even when it became apparent that needed to happen? He learned so much from his mistake of hiring Jim Turner that he refused to fire him as well? And he learned so much from his mistakes of just hiring guys he KNOWS rather than guys who have the most interesting resumes, that he picked Ben McAdoo over Bill Lazor?
     
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  13. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Wow, what a pile of BS ^.
     
  14. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    Wow! I did not know Bill McAdoo is our OC. Are you willing to give Philbin any credit for hiring Bill Lazor?
     
  15. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    A lot more thought goes into the hiring process than you're suggesting. Obviously our HC wants to work with guys he's familiar with, nothing wrong with that. And there is no evidence to suggest Philbin was handing out jobs to people who were considered
    unqualified simply because he had prior relationships with them.
     
  16. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    How is that a pile of BS? Do you know how many relatives of Mike Sherman are or have been on this staff?

    And we did not draft Tannehill BECAUSE of Mike Sherman.

    Philbin does not like to have his boat rocked...so he hires those he is comfortable with. Some people are fine with that kind of stuff. Personally, I want a HC that has no issues hiring the best they can get regardless of whether they know them or not.
     
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  17. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Do you like your boat rocked?
     
  18. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    To be honest, I believe Philbin preferred to go in another direction. Lazor himself was warned about taking the OC job in Miami BECAUSE of Philbin. The Lazor hire had more to do with Hickey and Ross.
     
  19. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    You aint packin enough to rock my boat big boy.....:up:
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Ben McAdoo was offered the position. If he had said yes, he is our offensive coordinator. That is just a fact.

    What I'm doing is forcing you to account for ALL of Philbin's input and actions, INCLUDING the hiring of Bill Lazor. You weren't willing to see all of it. You just want to look at the last bit of it, give him credit for that, and pretend it means he's good at filling out a staff.
     
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  21. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I was just saying the other day that I'm so happy Ben McAdoo and Zach Strief rejected us... good lord, that would have been horrible.
     
  22. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Dont most employers hire people they're comfortable with? I could see your point if Sherman was a Noob but he has a longer resume than Lazor does, a longer resume than Philbin too. Calling that a buddy system hire kind of ignores the success Sherm had prior to Miami, no?
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Here is what happened with the offensive coordinator search. And this is from quite a bit more than what you just read in the papers.

    Once Joe Philbin was FORCED to be without Mike Sherman (he tried to press the issue and keep Sherman but Sherman was fired anyway), Sherman himself maintained a very good relationship with Philbin because he knew that Philbin went to bat for him and tried to keep him. He also knew that Philbin went to bat for Jim Turner (Sherman's first cousin) and Zac Taylor (Sherman's son-in-law). So he helped Philbin develop a list of potential candidates.

    Joe Philbin's input was Ben McAdoo, whom he coached with at Green Bay. That was his first choice. Mike Sherman suggested Kyle Shanahan, whom he knew from their days together at Houston. He also suggested Gary Kubiak, who is a very good friend of Sherman's. Finally, there was Bill Lazor...an assistant from a red hot offense that took the NFL by storm, a guy Mike Sherman knew indirectly through Mike Holmgren, who has been in Lazor's corner for a while. All three were traditional WCO guys.

    They talked to Kyle Shanahan, and Shanahan ended up refusing to go any further with them. He thought the whole situation was a mess and he was not too impressed with Philbin. They TRIED to talk to Gary Kubiak, but weird shenanigans involving phone tag happened and the details are not important as the bottom line is it's clear Gary Kubiak didn't want to be here. That left McAdoo and then Lazor. In that order.

    They offered the job to Ben McAdoo, knowing full well that this meant Bill Lazor was going to accept the job with the Detroit Lions.

    But then Ben McAdoo decided he wanted the Giants job instead. Lazor was on his way to Detroit, was taking that position, when he got the call from the Dolphins. Luckily, a little foot-dragging had meant he hadn't given a hard commit to Detroit yet. He chose to come to Miami instead.

    So if you're asking me, knowing what I know, to come out of all that...Philbin having hired someone who was the wrong choice, having insisted on sticking with that wrong choice but been overruled by the owner who doesn't know his *** from his elbow from a football sense yet was clearly far more correct than Philbin on this issue, having been rejected by three prominent OC candidates, and finally ending up with Bill Lazor...and you're asking me to take from all that, "Joe Philbin hired Bill Lazor! Genius!"

    Well, sorry. I know too much.
     
  24. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    You still have not answered the question. Frankly, I have forgotten about McAdoo. I acknowledge that my initial evaluation did not take into account the other decisions you mention. Note: I am willing to make this statement!!

    Again, I stipulate that you have brought all of the decisions into this argument. Now, please answer the original question. Are you willing to give Philbin any credit for hiring Bill Lazor?
     
  25. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    At the time I didn't have any issue with the Sherman hire. But.. Hiring all of his relatives? Is that getting the best available?
     
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  26. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    If Ireland had brought Albert on board and drafted a solid RT last year Sherman is probably still the OC. Instead he took a tweener DE/OLB who doesn't fit Coyle's scheme and Jamar Taylor. So when Philbin says Sherm is a good coach who he preferred to keep around I believe him, it's not just because the guy was his buddy from way back. The idea that a HC would stake his career helping a friend is pretty far out there.
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Comfortable does not mean familiar. And hiring familiar faces that may not necessarily be the best possible candidate is not something successful companies do. The fact is that a lot of the coaches were hired by Philbin because of comfort-level, not because they would be the best at their job.
     
  28. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    Oops! Post timing issue. Ignore my previous post. I did not know all of this history, and I will accept it since I do not have access to this type of information.
     
  29. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    All I'm saying is that Sherm had more qualifications than being Philbin's boy.
     
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  30. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    That's not a fact by any definition I've ever seen. It's not an unwarranted opinion but it's an opinion nonetheless. Sherm had more than enough notches on his belt to be considered for an OC position, including coaching Tannehill in college.
     
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  31. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hmm. This article from January summarizes all the candidates up, pretty damn quickly all in a few paragraphs. Your information fills in the gaps.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article1959219.html#storylink=cpy
     
  32. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Oh.. I agree with Mike Sherman
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes that's correct. Kyle Shanahan, Gary Kubiak and Ben McAdoo all rejected the Dolphins. Not all had formal offers, but they made it clear they weren't interested. Bill Lazor was on his way to accept the Detroit job and he got pulled back to Miami.

    I don't know this for a fact but I imagine Miami may have upped their financial offer quite a bit to Lazor, given the pattern of rejections and the very real possibility that we were going to have to accept more of the same (promotion of O'Keefe, Philbin taking a more direct hand).
     
  34. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There seems to be a lot of revisionist history going on in regards to the hiring of Sherman. If I didn't know better I would think Philbin hired some obscure coach simply because they were buddies. Let's forget that Sherman had been a well regarded coach in both the NFL and college and even had HCing experience at both levels for numerous years (6 years with the Packers alone). Let's forget that the Sherman led Packers made the playoffs 4 of the 6 seasons he coached there or that as the OC he improved a 28th ranked Titans offense to 14th in one year. When we hired Sherman it was generally regarded as a good hire not only because he had previous success as a OC but that his HC experience would help a first time head coach. When we drafted Tannehill Sherman's hiring seemed like a no brainer as the familiarity surely would ease the transition for a young and raw QB.

    Sherman's tenure in Miami was clearly not as successful as we would have liked but do we really know how much of that was do to poor coaching by Sherman and how much was attributed to other factors which we all know well (lack of wrs, bullygate, young inexperienced QB etc....). Don't get me wrong I think we needed to move on from Sherman but let's not pretend his hiring was some kind of idiotic move by Philbin.
     
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  35. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nobody is painting it as an idiotic move. It was a safe move, because Philbin is safe. It led to other nepotistic hires, which were dumb hires. And then when he absolutely did not perform, Philbin refused to fire him and even fought for him.

    It's a pattern of bad, questionable decisions.
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    McAdoo accepted the Giants job immediately after the Miami interview. I'm picturing him text messaging on his phone underneath the table, letting the Giants know he's going with them. Word is spreading an hour after the interview I mean that is lightning fast.
     
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  37. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    What exactly is not a fact? That comfort-level should be a priority over competence? That is a fundamental tenet of employment.

    And yes, Sherman did have enough experience to be considered for the position, even be hired. That doesn't mean he was a good hire in hindsight.
     
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  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    are you saying that when Lazor stated that Philbin is the reason he is here was a lie?
     
  39. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In your first sentence you say hiring Sherman wasn't idiotic but rather safe move but then you go on to say it was a bad questionable decision. So which is it?
     
  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Since when does Questionable=idiotic? You need to go fishing somewhere else on that one.
     

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