The Continuity Conundrum

I understand that ricky, were just talking about what ifs..

like what if he winds up losing the the last 4 and what if he loses 2 out of three which would include other critical home loss against an inferior opponent.

 

The problem is that while the talent has improved, the team has not. We still have the same problems we did before and the coaches seem to blindly trust their ideals to the point they don't change to fit the talent or change after they have been exposed. I have to ask if Philbin has grown as a coach in three years and IMO the answer is no.

Also ask...if Phil in were fired would he get another HC shot? I'd say no. Hed either become an OC or retire in my eyes.

 

I don't see the need to continually kick a dead horse here. No one is making any headway by continually bashing Philbin. That's only going to make you more angry and less an actual fan of what the team is doing in general so I recommend you try and avoid those arguments for the sake of your own sanity.

We all understand that Philbin is not great and that there are more exemplary HC's on other teams. When I support Philbin, I know a lot of people are going to take that are a defense of his record and actions. I don't care if simplistic people don't see the big picture.

Supporting Philbin doesn't mean I like Philbin. He's a mid-level coach in a lot of ways. He could be a lot better.

I support Philbin only because I support the general direction of the team (GM, QB, etc.) and I want to see what another off-season can do to fix the holes. I'm just realistic. If we blow things up, it's very likely going to cost us a working GM-HC relationship that produced a lot of talent and a young QB who was the best chance we had in 15 years to start gaining ground against the NFL's elite.

Alex, we both now that Ryan Tannehill is the best f'ing thing to walk into the Dolphins organization in 15 years. He's the best shot we've had in 15 years and these worthless fans want to gamble it all away because they don't like Philbin for this or for that.

Can I level with you for a moment here, Alex? Let me give you the straight dope on how I see this team as a fan.

I don't care what exactly goes down this Sunday or next. I don't even need this team with win big next season. I can live with anything on the short term. The only thing I honestly care about is whether or not the Dolphins are legitimate 5 years from now. And I mean legitimate for the right reasons. Things like the following:

Do we have a real honest-to-God franchise QB?

Can we contend for the division and overtake the Patriots?

Can we go up against Play-off caliber defenses and disrupt the elite QBs in Play-off games?


Now Alex, you're probably a huge Dolphin fan just like I am and we'll always have that in common. But try and see it from my perspective.

F all this talk about Philbin. The real answer has nothing to do with Philbin and everything to do with getting this team out of the cellar by finding a real QB.

Alex, how long have we been begging and pleading the Dolphins to pick a 1st round talent and develop the kid?

Ryan Tannehill does not need to enter a 4th year starting at ground level with a new offensive scheme. It's just the opposite. Ryan Tannehill clearly has the basics down and now needs to be introduced to the more complex side of Lazor's offense. This is the very point during which Ryan Tannehill needs to be brought into the fray of real NFL QB'ing. I don't want the training wheels on with Ryan being a freshman in someone else' new offense next year. That doesn't make any sense for his development.

People can try and make this sound like it's a case of supporting or not supporting Joe Philbin as a HC, but that is far from reality.

Supporting Philbin staying another year does not mean you love Philbin.

I support Philbin because I support Tannehill.

The single most important thing in the entire universe of Miami Dolphins football is Ryan Tannehill.


You want my philosophy? Here it is...

If you want the Dolphins to get out of the basement, you sell the f'ing house and you give everything to the idea of supporting Tannehill.

If fixing the Dolphins means supporting Ryan Tannehill, I'm on board 100%. And if that means supporting Philbin, I'll sell my f'ing soul for that SOB right now.

Where do I sign?

 

He is actually great. he is the best coach this team has had in decades, he is better than JJ, Parcels, Wannstead, Sparano, and Saban, combined. That makes him great and HOFer in my book.

 

WOW. You might be better heading to that circus.

 

Nah, I just gave the tix to a friend. Decision has been made, I am watching Philbins on Sunday.

 

I get where you're coming from, believe me. If we can him at 9-7 I wont lose sleep over it. I'm saying if we do eventually keep him, that would be the ONLY way I would reluctantly be on board with it.

 

I'm not going to pretend to know what would happen depending on our record in these last 3 games. I think a loss to the Patriots would be excusable on most teams but losses to the Vikings and Jets would be inexcusable. It also depends on the way we win or lose games from the stand point of an owner evaluating his team. We kicked the Patriots butt in week 1, we humiliated the Chargers and shut them out, we barely loss to the Packers, Lions, and Broncos, all of these teams have better records than us, I think that goes a long way and shows major progress, a Sherman led offense wouldn't have accomplished anything close to that.
I care more about the development of Tannehill and I like Lazor as our OC, to me that means keeping Philbin regardless of whether or not Philbin is a good coach. If you bring in a new HC, you will most likely have a new OC and DC, which means another offense for Tannehill to learn. I am all for continuity as long as I see progress, I've seen plenty of progress this year in the face of some very tough competition, while dealing with the most injuries in one season for as long as I can remember being a fan. We beat the Pats with none of our starting LB's in the second half.
DJ, I still have my eyes on the playoffs this year, but no matter what happens in these last games, I don't want this team torn apart again with new coaches and the hurdle of learning new philosophies. I'm sick of that, I've had enough of that since Marino hung up his cleats.

 

Fair enough. I'll sink with my own ship if I have to I guess. I've been against Philbin since the Tampa Bay game last year. That loss right there told me all I needed to know. He's not changed; still makes the same bass ackwards decisions week after week.

 

I know you believe in continuity, and I understand that completely, as simplistic as some of us are, our simplistic minds have the ability to talk about what ifs..

from the information that we have gathered the past three years, I don't think he can survive losing to the pats and then one of the following home games.

 

lol...anyone on this board and is a member and has expressed the reasons why they would like to go in a different direction are not '' worthless.

coming to a new board, insulting its members and saying things like this, is not smart...you should probably check yourself.

 

I ain't got me's know simplistic mind boss. Wuz et yoo hoo kecked mize horsy?and now I'm a worthless fan too? All I have to say is wow!

 

Any proof or evidence to suggest that's true? Why was firing Sherman the right move? Looking at that Brandon Albert thread (before and after), it seems pretty clear that Lazor is as limited as an OC as Sherman was with an oline giving up constant pressure. In fact, he has J. James at least. Last year Sherman had Dallas Thomas x2 at the RT position and no Samson Stale (who isn't great but has played well enough). I mean, Mike Sherman wishes he could of gotten 4+ YPC from Miller/Oline... And Ryan Tannehill was much more efficient in the red zone last season under Sherman.

I know this forum seems to love Lazor, but there comes a point where talent matters and no coach can turn chicken **** into chicken salad. Kind of OT, but I just wanted to point that out.

 

Just in points per game which is the first stat i looked up. Last year we were 26th in the NFL, this year we are 12th in the NFL.

 

Our PPG have dropped to Sherman levels w/o Brandon Albert. And Sherman had worse to deal with.

 

The interesting part about that is that when Mike Sherman got that job, he had Brett Favre at quarterback. I don't think he won fewer than 11 games in any of his first four years as a head coach. Mike was also given personnel powers in Green Bay. Going into his 5th season, Ted Thompson was hired as GM, and Mike lost his personnel powers. He and Ted had some friction between them, GB won only 5 games, and Mike was canned. I can't remember if Brett was injured that year or not. I know that Mike's last year was Aaron Rodgers's rookie season.

I'd be curious to know what first year head coaches had rookie quarterbacks as starters for them and their progression with those quarterbacks.

 

I would like to see Philbin replaced, but it isn't because I feel there are certain qualities a head coach MUST have to be successful. The "take his and beat yours, take yours and beat his" is actually a quality that very few successful head coaches have. Most of the head coaches in the NFL are set in their ways and are not that flexible. They claim otherwise, but in reality, they aren't.

I think there is also this myth that if a coach can give a fired up pre game speech and carry on like a blathering idiot on the sidelines that he can "inspire" his players to succeed.

IMO, the one biggest quality a head coach needs is the ability to get his players to buy into what he wants to do. Without that, you are going to have players that are constantly questioning what you are doing.

The reason I would like to move on from Joe is because I don't think he has a connection to his players from a psychological standpoint. He always appears to be the last person that realizes there is a problem. He seems to lack a feel for player weaknesses in game situations. I think he is a coach that has more belief in the system than he does the players.

Joe prides himself on not getting too high when things go good and not getting too low when things go bad. That's a good quality to have, but at some point, you have to be able to show your players that you do have emotions just to show them that you are human. For instance, I can't remember which game it was, but Miami recently won a game right after Joe's father passed away. The players gave Joe the game ball for that game. Joe was obviously choked up, but he didn't let his emotions out there. He fought it back. IMO, it would have been good for the players to see him cry at that moment. I do think at times it would be good for the players to see Joe go ape **** on an official at times. He needs to show his anger in certain situations.

 

I will add this as well. I'm not a Ryan Tannehill basher, but we are at the point where if there was no doubt that he is the guy going forward, we wouldn't be having this conversation about Joe Philbin right now.

Does anyone really believe that Chuck Pagano is this much better than Joe Philbin as a head coach? I don't, but Chuck has Andrew Luck at quarterback. The same Andrew Luck that won with Bruce Arians filling in for Chuck Pagano as a rookie.

 

I think, and I've been wrong many, many times before regarding our Fins, but I think Ross will NOT clean house (although that is my preference) and we end up with Hickey staying and a mid tier coaching candidate (again)... If Ross had his way, I think we end up keeping the entire staff except for Philbin, who is relegated to another position in the organization and another coach is hired to work with Philbin's pieces...but I doubt any coach worth his salt would live with that. In Ross' business, continuity is paramount to success. That is not the case in the NFL... I don't have enough trust that he's 'learned' from his past mistakes...although, there are worse owners out there...

Any coach we get, will want as much autonomy as he can possibly get from Ross. Any coach we get worth his salt would get that autonomy...

 

Ummmm so what does "supporting Tannehill" have to do with supporting Philbin? They aren't tied to the hip. We just got a new GM this year, yet Tannehill is still behind center is he not. Ryan is the darling of the franchise. If the organization stepped in and made it clear to Philbin that he wouldn't be having his way at QB [ditching Tannehill for Moore], then why would you think they'd allow a new HC such freedom?

The ironic thing about this long-winded post is that if the organization's decision-making were solely up to Philbin, Tannehill would be in the process of getting ruined. Sherman would still be here; the only QB "coaching" received by Ryan would still be from no-NFL-experience Zac Taylor; and Tannehill would've been benched earlier in the year for Matt Moore.

 

u listen here u simpleton, that O pinion you have a dang near worthless ya hear..now go back and get your ged..

I just laid some dope on Ya ***.

 

Todd, How dare you talk like that to an engineer, don't ya know engineers automatically know more about football than us simplistic worthless fans.

 

That's Philbin to a T alright, but it's also presented in a negative way. You're assuming that Philbin and the coaches don't see that. I'll be honest, from what I see, I don't think Philbin cares all that much what the players think on the short term. I think Philbin's concern is primarily in getting guys with the right kind of mindset so he doesn't have to be a locker-room personality like Bill Cowher. I'm not that type of person either, so the last thing I would do is put myself in that kind of position. I would try and put myself in the type of position that allows me to do what I'm good at. Philbin isn't a player's coach so as a fan who wants to see success, I woulnd't want him attempting to do that.

Certainly last year's Incognito situation arose out of Philbin and the coaches not being present enough. I think Philbin's plan from the onset has been to be relatively "hands-off" in those type of environments. Certainly the evidence speaks to that. That's not proof however that the "hands-off" approach is flawed. It's evidence that we need to be careful in selecting our players. So our goal as a franchise is to find the right players for that type of environment. After all, finding the right players is certainly a prerequisite for winning the Super Bowl while having a coach that is beloved in the eyes of the players is really not. Lots of coaches have won without being popular "player's coaches."

As you pointed out, the most successful coaches are simply the ones that have been able to organize their teams. I was careful there to say "organize" and not "motivate." Bill Belichick doesn't do very much to "motivate" his players. The success of his players as a result of his schemes are what adds motivation. The respect has come out of winning. It's not the other way around.

Too many people see Philbin and think he's unaware, that the situation is too big for him and that it's out of his control. It's simply the way in which he's chosen to build the team. I actually think that in the long run, it might be a good thing. If our goal is winning Play-off games and reaching the Super Bowl, we certainly are going to need more Cameron Wakes and fewer Jonathon Martins. From the onset, Philbin has reminded us that he is in search of self-motivate and dedicated players who place football above all else.

I think Philbin's plan has always been summed up in the following, 'Once we have the right guys, we'll win with the game plans we have. Once we start winning, the team will bond and take the next step.'

Personally speaking, I don't see a huge problem with that. It would certainly appear that at this point Philbin is a manager. He's more connected to the GM and to the OC/DC than to the players. Criticizing him for not being in touch with the players is short sighted and evidence that many fans don't see the real type of structure which the organization is trying to build around.

Philbin recognizes full well that he is not Bill Cowher so he's attempting to win in another way. Still though, the fans grade him according to what they would expect if he were Bill Cowher.

To me, that is a fan problem.

 

LOL..Ya know DJ , I just cannot believe what I am reading sometimes. An Obvious and direct insult to people in the threads.1st I thought we were all Dolfan's Talking Football..not Rocket Science. Second the guy does have some good thoughts on the team but the he tries to start talking down to us. Next I don't care if one is an Engineer or a Chemical applicator ( LOL..Painter )...as it has nothing to do with being a fan..I always try to keep my ears open as you can at times learn from people smarter than ones self, or had better opportunities, as well as you can learn from people with a 5the grade education...it does not matter to me as I for one, do not try to make myself look brilliant at the expense of other's FEELING'S

 

YES. Pagano is night and day better than Philbin. His team has taken on his personality. He knows how to tap into his players, how to inspire and motivate them, and how to get them playing their best, and in return, his team will run through a wall for him [see Vontae Davis, whom Philbin failed on]. Chuck's team is 9-3 in close games the past 2 years, and that's NOT just because of Luck.

Do you mean that same Bruce Arians who was voted NFL COACH OF THE YEAR in 2012 by a landslide over 2nd place Chuck Pagano and 3rd place Pete Carroll? The same Bruce Arians who currently boasts the NFL'S BEST RECORD at 11-3 despite starting 4 different QBs this year, including backup Drew Stanton who had a 78.7 rating with just 7 TDs through 9 starts? There's a reason Arians was hired by Zona following his 11-5 2012 Indy season, and he immediately took the Cards from 5-11 to 10-5. He's a phenomenal coach, and it's a testament to Pagano's coaching prowess that he was able to match Arians' 2012 success in 2013 while also taking Indy 1 game further in the playoffs after having his team fight back from a 31-10 halftime deficit to KC.

You act like the job of a head coach is just a formality, as if he has minimal team responsibility, little to do with wins and losses, and just sits around and picks his *** all day while his QB pulls overtime and somehow performs all the coaching duties plus quarterbacks the team. You act like players are robots who are all preprogrammed to share the same mentality, direction, and desire and all play with the same level of effort, focus, fire, intensity, and discipline. There's a lot more to head coaching than setting a depth chart and deciding when to call a timeout, throw a challenge flag, or go for it on 4th down.

 

It's interesting how fans see different things.

I don't look to Indy and see a team that will run through a wall for their coach.

I see a team that is inspired because it is winning. And to me, the winning appears to be largely associated with the presence of Andrew Luck.

But like I said, it's interesting to hear a different interpretation.

 

Bill belicek is a master motivator, he just does it intellectually and thru his own personality.players want to get into their craft when they play for belicek, if folks study him Instead of watching pressers, really watch the film in practices as to how he communicates with his players one would see..

 

Why not address the points he's making? WADR you're not doing anything diff from what you're accusing him of.

 

Does that make Andy Reid the horrible coach who's team choked away a the lead?

 

those kind of posts, the ones that have opinions and insults woven into the context, do not deserve my attention, they mean I'm not dealing with a poster who has the ability intellectually to know where he [thephins.com} is, and who he's talking to..{the members here}

 

Ok. And what's wrong with a fresh perspective? I'm not new here at all and I think the forum is overrun with pessimists. You made free at last thread, basically to announce the season was over while the team is one game out with three to go. And you've badgered me and DG about what should happen if we lose the last four games. I have a ton of respect for you but in this case I have to say perhaps you're off the mark.

 

your forgetting the insulting demeaning insults part of that so called fresh perspective..

just because you share the same opinion on keeping philbin so it keeps lazor and tannhill together doesn't mean you should overlook how its being presented.

I asked you both simple questions..ive never seen more dancing on a message board..

it came down to this if people are truly paying attention...

because of your defense of philbin and that your minds are already made up on retaining him, which is fine, I simply posed the obvious question to both of you multiple times, what if we lose the next four?, you told me you don't need to think that far in advance, and the other guy said, its ok if we do because his mind is already made up.

moving on.

 

I disagree, I don't think this forum is overrun by pessimists, I think its a fair board, and you can't possibly tell me that in the third year with what just transpired that people aren't justified for being disappointed in this particular coach...they just lost for the 2nd time, at home, to go to the playoffs..

now if our boys come back and run the table then great for them and this coach..ill support them..

to me keeping tannehill with the same coordinator does not justify keeping a head coach, thats a flawed way to build a program...

you have to get your head coach right first and foremost.

 

Then you need to open your eyes and pay attention b/c the evidence is out there.

Here's some stuff about Vontae Davis that sums it up. Pagano took a problematic, underachieving, immature player cast-off by ineffective Joe Philbin and turned him into one of the game's best defenders. This alone has been the difference of a couple games each year.

​

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It's largely insulting to discredit Pagano's impact in Indy and throw his independent success into Luck's basket. You act like Luck was Peyton Manning or Dan Marino in 2013, when in reality he was an 87.0 rated passer with 23 TDs to 9 INTs and was playing negligibly better than Tannehill is this year, if that. Luck obviously helps a great deal but it's pretty silly to think he accounted for all 11 of those wins by himself, and it's pretty silly to think a team winning an additional 2 or 3 wins b/c of the head coach is insignificant. If Miami had even 1 additional win this year b/c of Philbin, it'd be squarely in the playoff hunt.

The Colts had the 28th ranked scoring D before Pagano arrived. By 2013 it was ranked 9th and playing with focus and attitude despite being an average-talent unit as a whole. Indy lost the NFL Coach of the Year [Arians], saw the offense lose Wayne & Allen to injury, had NOTHING at running back, and had to resort to Darius Heyward-Bey, Griff Whalen, and Da'Rick Rogers at receiver, yet Pagano still had the team reaching 11-5 for the second consecutive year. Besides all the critical head coaching duties that Luck has no involvement in, do you think Luck reshaped Indy's defense and modified its attitude, the team's attitude, and how the team plays the game virtually overnight? Did Luck transform Vontae into one of the league's impact players? Did Luck promote one of the best pass rush seasons of all time out of the 32 year old Robert Mathis? Did Luck bring Corey Redding over from Pagano's ex team [Baltimore] which proved to be a great addition? Furthermore, Chuck's players shaved their heads for him, and that says a lot about him as a coach. Do you actually think Miami players would do the same for the HC who dissolved their leadership council, sent key players packing, and seems more like a separate entity from team [as made up of by the players] than a part of it with his emotionless, dissociative attitude that treats his players more like chess pieces?

 

Excellent post!

While I'm not a Vontae Davis fan in particular, the numbers do indicate that he's having a turn-around type of year which is great to see from a human perspective. If the success he's having this year is a product of the work he's finally putting in, I'm excited for him.

Unfortunately I don't look at the story of people like Vontae and stand in awe. When you have an opportunity to be part of an elite group and get yourself rich in the process and despite all that your lack of motivation means not only getting fired but also having someone sit down and mentor you into actually doing your job correctly, it's a big red flag for me.

That kind of motivation disappears quickly because no matter how good an influence another person may, when they're gone, you'll likely sink back into what you were.

Unfortunately, many people--Vontae included--seem to need a parent figure in their life at adult ages. That's never a good thing to need someone else judgement and discipline. Joe Philbin is trying to set a standard in Miami that is above that. The trade of Vontae Davis speaks to the vision that Miami has. Miami wants to reward the Odricks and Wakes for their self-discipline while showing that they aren't going to tolerate or sympathize with folks like Davis who need to be convinced over and over to work hard.

Maybe that's too grand a vision.

Maybe you don't believe in that sort of policy. Maybe you think that it's a pipe dream in the NFL but it's closer to how Belichick organizes his team, than Pagano. We haven't had the success that Belichick has and don't have a HoF QB to bail us out when we cut, release, trade or bench insubordinate people, so maybe we can't justifiably institute that kind of expectation for our players, but at the same time, it does reflect the world in which I live, so I like it.

 

That's a pretty silly insinuation you're trying to make, and yes, I know what you're trying to suggest. Sorry but a coach's ability is measured by a collective of games, not just one loss. Every coach will lose games as we both know. Pagano has lost 3 close games, but he's won significantly more of those than he's lost. Much like Philbin, if Andy Reid has a history of choking significantly more often than his teams rise to the occasion, then obviously that's not a good sign; however I doubt he took the Chiefs from 2-14 to 11-5 by choking. KC was 2-5 in close 4th qtr games [with the score differential at 7 or less entering the 4th qtr or with the game decided by 3 or less]. In 2013 under Reid, that improved to 7-4, including the aforementioned playoffs loss to Indy. So it looks like Reid isn't the same horrible 4th quarter coach Philbin is.

 

Whoa, that's pretty narrow minded WADR. Do you actually believe the impact Pagano has had on his team has only extended to Vontae Davis and that the change he instilled was fleeting? Vontae is in year 3 in Indy and his effort hasn't let up. "The numbers indicate that Vontae is having a turn-around type of year"? Gimme a break. Don't do that. Don't minimize Vontae's impact and production in order to downplay Pagano's impact. He's not having a "turn-around type year". He quickly became one of the league's BEST DEFENDERS under Pagano. The fact that you have no idea what Vontae is doing in Indy reflects directly on your knowledge about Pagano. You're just talking out of your keester so that you can continue arguing blindly for Philbin, because anyone in Indy would laugh you out of the building for downplaying Pagano's presence and direct contribution to success.

Do you even understand what you're saying? The trade of Vontae doesn't "speak to the vision that Philbin has". It speaks to his damn ineptitude as a head coach, because like you just said- "many people seem to need a parent figure in their life at adult ages", operative word beingmany. In a professional sport of minimal disparity where every advantage helps, your answer is to jeopardize team talent by intentionally dwindling down the pool of available players in the draft and FA because you don't believe it should be in the head coach's job description to help mold young 21, 22, and 23 year olds into focused, responsible, team-orriented men? WHUT? Yup, let's perennially deny ourselves players like Dez Bryant who just need a little extra attention and guidance to realize their outstanding potential and to become passionate, emotional, caring leaders of the team.

On top of that, players aren't always open books for friggin' sake. Case in point, it didn't seem like Rolando McClain needed direction, focus, and motivation when he was drafted. The guy was constantly in the film room and took great joy out of playing the mental chess game on the field as Bama's ILB and defensive leader. Nobody expected what would happen next for him in Oakland. Rolando certainly isn't the only example of talented, promising players gone underachievers who seemed like they didn't need coaching assistance as far as their mentality, focus, professionalism, etc are concerned, nor will he be the last.

In Cincy, Marvin Lewis and his staff take great effort and pride in getting the most out of talented players that Philbin wouldn't bother with, and that effort has rewarded Lewis handsomely by providing what should be his 4th consecutive post season appearance despite having the "just good enough" Andy Dalton at QB. Is Cincy any more talented than Miami? Nope, in fact they've battled injuries as bad or worse than Miami [Defensively: Cincy lost Michael Johnson to FA; All Pro Geno Atkins still not recovered from 2013 ACL injury with just 2 sacks all year; defensive fireplug Burfict gone after week 5; Mauluga out 4 games which hindered Cincy's run D; and their corners have been banged up all season. Offensively: AJ Green missed 4 games; Marvin Jones on IR all season; 1st rounders Andre Smith & Tyler Eifert on IR after week 1; Bernard out 3 games, and they're starting a 4th round rookie at center], yet they seem headed for the 3rd straight 10+ win season.

Do you know what you'd get if Pagano couldn't tap into his players and get the most from them? You'd get Joe Philbin, yet somehow you think this is beneficial for an organization? Wut? That's the problem with Philbin. This "vision" you speak of involves bein passive and hands off when it comes to his players, instead passing the full onus onto the players to be responsible for their own focus, professionalism, attitude, etc and to maintain that level, which is a proven fail. If he put as much effort into working with players as he does checking their bedtimes and ensuring they maintain a clean, trash-free field, perhaps Vontae Davis would still be here. How many more Vontae's will Miami have to lose because of Joe? How many Rolando McClain's of Oakland will we end up with under Philbin? You see, you have it backward. Do you know what's better than a coach who only wants a team of mostly "already-focused" players? - a coach with the ability to take that same team and improve it by getting its remaining players focused and by allowing the organization to bring in talented players you get at a bargain whom you can get focused and on the same page. Vontae didn't need to be "convinced over and over again" by Pagano to work hard, so stop confusing him with Philbin's ineptitude.

You said this so called "vision" is intended to reward players like Wake & Odrick for their self-discipline; well, what do you think happens when a good head coach like Pagano gets through to his players which consequently leads them to becoming focused and self-disciplined? What, are coaches not allowed to reward newly self-disciplined players just because they needed some coaching assistance to get there? C'mon. Do you know how often the NFL sees a player's "light comes on"? It's a fairly common occurrence, yet you treat it like an anomaly.

It's not a good thing that Philbin failed with Vontae, failed to establish a proper locker room prior to or during the Jon Martin debacle, or failed to have a pulse on his locker room.

You obviously don't know how Pagano organizes his team or what his philosophy is, and it seems like you don't know Belichick's either. Bill brought in the somewhat undisciplined Randy Moss after 2 lackluster years in Oakland and got him on New England's page BTW. Who did Bill bring back for an encore a couple weeks ago despite an undisciplined past? LeGarrette Blount was it? Aqib Talib? Aaron Hernandez? The drafting of Ryan Mallett, Aaron Dobson, and Alfonzo Dennard? You should get your facts straight before professing what their visions are, how they compare or differ from one another, and which vision is or isn't the best one. Whatever Philbin's vision is, it's led to negligent improvement over Sparano's team. Joe's "vision" shouldn't interfere with his ability to coach, get his team better focused, better prepared, and better at finishing games, because it seems apparent in all your talk about vision that you're forgetting the fact the head coach still has a responsibility to, you know, coach.

 

You, like many other people here, have created a false image of Philbin as a ridiculously inept idiot who does nothing for the team.

Let me clue you in to something, man, don't rest your case on a PoS like Vontae Davis who squandered his opportunity and got fired.

You're logic doesn't even follow. Has Joe Philbin not helped develop Will Davis, Jamar Taylor, Jelani Jenkins, Ju'wann James, Jarvis Landry, Damien Williams, etc, etc, etc into solid prospects that all seem to be fine young men off the field?

No, no, no. We can't be fair and give credit for any of the good things. We can only talk about Philbin when we lose or when a player is under-performing. We'll just use Philbin as a scapegoat for that stuff. And then we'll point to coaches who have a few more wins than Philbin and we'll hold them on high because God knows they must be perfect despite the fact that it's all just stuff the fans are making up in their own heads.

You're going to shut the door on Philbin because he couldn't get Vontae to act like an adult? What lengths will people not go to in order to attempt to paint Philbin as the villain. These arguments about Philbin have become a joke.

I'm not even arguing your case for Philbin. I wind up arguing against these ridiculous portrayals of Philbin as a bumbling moron who can barely find his parking space in the morning.

Oh, and you almost had me with the Bengals stuff...but then I remembered that they played the NFC/AFC South Divisions this year while we played the AFC West and the NFC North. So if you want to talk about why one team is a couple of games better than another this year, maybe start with the most obvious of reasons as opposed to telling fables about what you think is going on behind closed doors.

 

Lots of players perform differently w/ a change of scenery.

 

Exactly. You take Luck away from the Colts, and they are not nearly as good as they are now with Pagano. Jim Caldwell looked like a good coach with Peyton Manning. With Dan Olorvsky, not so much. Now with Matt Stafford, he's good again.