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How much more time do we give Tannehill to prove he's got "it"?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PhinsRock, Dec 14, 2014.

  1. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Agenda? Hardly. The 'detractors' are simply pointing out that:

    1) This was the first good game Tannehill has played all month.
    2) It came in a meaningless situation after having lost two far more important games (with weak offensive performances) that really would've put us in playoff position. Add to this the fact that the offense also struggled mightily with the playoffs on the line last season too.

    These are plain facts, not some biased agenda.
     
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  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    1. That's not true. Not to mention, overall, this season, he is playing very well.
    2. It wasn't meaningless except for towards the end of the game when it came out that Pittsburgh won.

    The detractors are completely biased, hence you guys went from using rating as the measuring stick to using wins. Strangely, both are not statistics that measure how well the quarterback is playing. Also funny, that now that Tannehill has a good rating, you guys want to attack his YPA, and cling to this "dink and dunk" argument. If you can't be happy that our QB is playing at near elite levels since game 4 on, I question how much of a fan of the team you actually are. There are so many bigger issues on this team than Tannehill's YPA. I think the last two games have shown that Tannehill is quite capable of throwing the deep ball, he just needs some semblance of an offensive line to get the ball off, and then he needs his receivers to catch. Oh, and a defense that could stop someone once in awhile would be nice.
     
  3. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    1. It's absolutely true. Again I'm talking about how he's playing down the stretch in the December close of the season when you need to be at your best. Please tell me how many playoff teams you can realistically expect to beat with these stat lines...
    25/35 for 235yds, 0td 1int
    23/33 for 237yds, 1td 0int
    29/47 for 346yds, 1td 2int

    You would call those performances 'good'? Cause we scored only one touchdown in each of those games. That's "near elite levels"? Raise the bar.

    2. If you think our playoff hopes were realistically alive heading into this week, I have no help for you. We needed very specific results from 6 different teams over the course of two weeks. The odds were miiiles long. The only 'agenda' here is your dishonesty about our playoff chances over the course of December. Everyone knew the season was over after last week.
     
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  4. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Well, your facts are wrong. Going into this game, it was a MUST WIN to have any chance of making the playoffs. That is NOT a meaningless game.

    After the fact, because Pittsburgh won, it became a game that didn't matter for us to make the playoffs. The players wouldn't have known that until the game was over.

    If you want to diminish this game or RTH, that is your prerogative. But don't throw around the word meaningless when going into and during this game it was a game that had meaning and was must win.
     
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  5. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here is an interesting view point...

    Against common opponents this year...

    Tom Brady= 373 PA, 253 comp (67.8%), 2,683 yds (7.2 YPA), 23 TDs, 6 INTs, and a 102 QBR...

    RT= 361 PA, 252 comp (69.8%), 2,598 yds (7.2 YPA), 20 TDs, 7 INTs and 101 QBR...

    Just numbers, IMHO...
     
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  6. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    "All month" is an interesting way of putting it, lol. As if its the NBA and he's played 13 games this month already. You're talking about 2 games, and framing it as "all month"...
     
  7. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    How much time do you give him?

    About 10 more years I would say, unless he is still effective at 35, then you sign him to a short term deal then.
     
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  8. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    How would those numbers look with the multiple touchdown passes that were dropped?
     
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  9. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Math? I'm talking about the four games we've had in December. He was not good for 3 of them, and great for the 1 that came after our playoff fate was essentially decided. If people want to lie to themselves about the realism behind our mathematically being alive heading into this week, that's your prerogative. This board was in offseason mode after the Pats game, and rightly so.
     
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  10. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    lol oh simplicity at its finest. Did Minnesota play like this was a meaningless game? Just asking because you keep saying it was a meaningless game like that should signify something.
     
  11. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    Really because if Williams and Matthews hold on to perfect balls and Hartline doesn't suck, he has at least three touchdowns in the Pats game.... Another perfect pass to Wallacw dropped in the Jets game plus a freak pick... Context matters
     
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  12. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    I forgot the Jets game was on MNF.. so "all month" counts for 3 games... not 2.

    And Tannehill played very well last week against the Patriots...
     
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  13. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    You do know we have statistics that smooth peaks and troughs in data right? Smoothing data gives a more accurate picture of the overall trend and also helps limit the ability to cherry pick statistics to prove points. We have 15 games to look at as a whole and you pick 3 games with an arbitrary reasoning for them to make conclusions. What stops me from just bringing up this game, the Denver game, the Oakland game, SD, BUF (#2), and Chicago? There's a reason you avoided posting passer ratings as well IMO. The Baltimore game was a 98.9 rating which doesn't fit your narrative. Why not look at the three year improvement inclusive of 47 data points? How about going into the season with 4 games with a passer rating over 100 and having 6 with a game to go? How about a steadily improving TD differential? Please use statistics responsibly.
     
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  14. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Cato is going to be a good QB in this league so it makes sense regardless. But, I don't see the problem with continuing to push a guy. Only certain QB's in this league have earned their keep IMO.
     
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  15. btfu149

    btfu149 Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree that we need to look at context, I count last week as a good game there should have been TD's to Matthews, Williams and Hartline last week that didn't happen. I also agree that the Jets pick was luck as well as the second interception against the Pats where I thought Browner interfered with Miller and that caused the ball to pop up. Conversely we have to remember Tannehill got extremely lucky with two dropped interceptions versus the Jets, one literally hit Calvin Pace in the face and there was the other one where the corner jumped the route and dropped it.

    I haven't been able to watch the Vikings game yet but I'm very excited to watch how Tannehill played looking at the stats. Was the interception his fault today?
     
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  16. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    My bad, I forgot the Pace almost pick in the Jets game. Also the first pass TD in this game to Wallace, was not a great decision and Wallace made a great play. Look all I am saying is that looking at the qb situation, the guy is a good solid quarterback and this team has many more pressing needs. If a good prospect falls for some strange reason into the 3-4 round, pick him up, but I don't want to draft a quarterback in the first few rounds.
     
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  17. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    agreed.
     
  18. JOHN_M

    JOHN_M New Member

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    I hear luck is out in Indy because he can't win the big games!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Looking at high-stakes do-or-die games in crunch time of the season is cherry picking? Lol, okay. I guess for the "he does no wrong" Tannehill supporters it has to be given that these same failures happened last season in our two win-and-in games. (Trend? Naaah.)

    And yeah, I don't put a ton of stock in passer rating when vs. Baltimore and their weak secondary his passer rating was so high it yielded one total touchdown. Sorry, but that's not good enough in what was probably our most important game of the year.

    I like Tannehill. Really I do. But the way people are all over him after one great performance in a meaningless game against a 6-win team is kind of ridiculous. The fact is the offense struggled in our most important games just like it did last year. Slow down on crowning this kid.
     
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  20. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The Vikings defense is no joke. They're pretty good. Their offense sucks, hence their win total. Everyone isn't all over Tannehill for one game. He's had a good season, and has been erasing the complaints that people had about him. Frankly, to blame Tannehill for complete team failures last year at the end is absurd. Basically, Tannehill has been making **** sandwiches all season, because that's what he has for ingredients.
     
  22. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, he does have an agenda. His agenda is predicting the big scorers in fantasy football, and he got Tannehill wrong. LOL I wish I had started Tannehill yesterday, instead of Brees, who put out a huge turd. Tannehill has been money pretty much all season for me.
     
  24. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Its pretty sad when the national media hypes up a player on a team and its "fans" piss on it.
     
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  25. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    I just think its funny that you use a fantasy football article in this thread as if FF has any bearing or translation on the REAL game... There's fantasy football and there's real football, separate entities. You should of created a separate thread to salute RT17's FF work if you didn't want ''fans'' to piss on it, but that was never your intention as you made clear "I guess this guy has an agenda" but using FF as if it translates to real football is just silly.

    P.S. I have RT17 in both my leagues as my backup to A. Luck and in my other league alternates with M. Ryan and play the matchups (I'm in championship in both)
     
  26. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Before yesterday, I thought Tannehill came up a little short in his previous two games. In his defense, he had very little help though.

    Yesterday, he willed the team to a win. The same way any great QB would do. He had no help from his defense. His offensive line was getting him pounded most of the game. Yet, he hung in there and played great.

    He's earned another year and I hope Lazor stays as the OC to allow him another year in this system. I hope we continue to acquire more pieces to put around him, rather than just hoping for returns from injuries or maintain the status quo.

    Statistically speaking this year, it's really difficult to not be excited about Ryan Tannehill's future potential with this team. I was DEAD WRONG about him prior to that Oakland game. Since that time, he's been very good. It would be nice if his team could pick him up ever so often (in the manner they did vs NYJ)...that includes coaches too.

    A little credit to Joe Philbin, and I may never do this again, since he gave Tannehill the kick in the arse before the Oakland game, he's been really good. Maybe it worked?
     
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  27. btfu149

    btfu149 Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't disagreeing with you. Tannehill is probably around 10-15th best QB in the league right now IMO. I still believe he is our future franchise QB and may still end up being elite, but he remains a work in progress as of now. Lets not forget that most people had him as a first round pick that needed a few years to sit on the bench and learn......we have absolutely NOT seen the best of Tannehill yet which is very exciting

    Also I have absolutely no issue drafting someone in the 3rd or 4th and developing a solid backup and save some money and get rid of Moore.
     
  28. Jt0323

    Jt0323 Fins Up! Luxury Box

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    Had it not been for the last minute Tds we gave up against Green Bay and Detroit or the Defense ****ting the bed against Denver we would be in the playoffs
     
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  29. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Setting an arbitrary designation of do or die games is the definition of cherry picking. Picking games that mean more to you is the definition of cherry picking. I'm trying to look at 47 games and I'm the biased one. If you checked my post history (although I suspect the reality of the situation isn't important to you) you will clearly see me being down on Tannehill this season up until he started showing himself. Even after his better performance I still said he needed more consistency because I think he's still a bit too boom and bust. You're just being intellectually lazy and trying to paint yourself as a martyr for legitimate criticism rather than addressing my points.

    You don't put stock in one of the top 3 stats more correlated with winning? I don't know when it became cool to brag about not caring about statistics. Would you have preferred Matthew Stafford's 53.7 rating in a win yesterday? Statistically there's no difference between game 1 and game 16. Clutch is a lie and has no basis in reality outside of someone with performance anxiety. It's this kind of talk that has people forgetting that Tony Romo is an all-time great at QB. They just think of some media overblown interceptions. It's not good thinking.

    There's no such thing as a meaningless game when it comes to compiling statistics. Comparing x game to y game based on the implications on the team isn't smart thinking. You compare his performance based on the competition, not the moment. The moment isn't lining up 11 men against him.
     
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  30. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    If you don't think playing great in December is more important than playing great in September, we're probably done here. If you don't think it's particularly important for franchise QBs to raise their game when the postseason is there for the taking, we're probably done here. I put a little extra stock in how a quarterback performs when his team's season is on the line. You don't. Agree to disagree.

    And yes, QB rating is a fine stat on a broad level...but when you see in this one game how few points we scored, what's the more important indicator of performance? Do you consider that 13-point outing with the playoffs on the line to be a nice game by our offensive leader? Cause I'm of the opinion that he wasn't good enough against a weak Baltimore secondary.

    I just think circumstances matter. To you I suppose garbage-time TDs mean just as much as game-winners.
     
  31. Coloradotrv

    Coloradotrv Well-Known Member

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    RT threw for almost 400yards, 4TD's, 1INT at 74% completion rate.

    He put the team on his back and carried them to a victory. I don't know what else you could want from the kid.

    He has a shot at 4000+ passing yards on the year
    He has a shot at 30TDs on the year (unlikely against jets D which gives us problems)
    He is better than 2:1 TD-INT ratio, which is still not great, but a definite improvement

    On the offseason there are 2, maybe 3, areas I want him to improve

    1) Pump fake. Learn it. Use it. Abuse defenses. With a pump fake, the INT doesn't happen yesterday.
    2) Deep ball. Him and Wallace need to buy a house together in the middle of nowhere and practice routes and passes all day every day until September.
    3) Pocket presence. This one has improved this year, but it still needs to be better. We can't take 13yd sacks because he holds on a beat too long. Get rid of the ball and live to fight another down.

    Very pleased with his development and progress this year. Think he is a stud in the making and has earned a bit of patience with his toughness and flashes of brilliance. It is there. Just needs to be consistent.
     
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  32. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL - You make it sound like FF is based on Madden or something. The fact that RT is scoring well in FF is a direct reflection of him playing well in real football.
     
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  33. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    The other part of that Yahoo FF article:

    Dunno why people can't accept that all QBs have good and bad games, but at least Tannehill's ascension continues and gives us something to look forward to in future seasons.
     
  34. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    If that's what you read from my statement, then we probably are. I said that when compiling statistics, there's no difference between a September game and a December game. They're playing against opponents, not playoff implications. When determining success, then those games matter but if you're not even attempting to understand how statistics work then there's no real reason to bother.

    If you keep lying about what I'm saying then there's no reason to bother at all. What exactly is elevating your level of play for the big game? Tom Brady doesn't do that. Tom Brady plays great year round but people give more credence to him doing the same thing he always does if the situation has bigger implications. 4th quarter Brady is 1st through 3rd quarter Brady but we place more importance on the 4th quarter and assign him more praise for it. At what point does a trend of good play in big games become a part of that person's ability rather than a switch they can turn on or off? At some point the spectacular becomes mundane if it's so easily repeatable.

    If you don't want to understand how statistics work, that's fine. If you want to pretend like schemes, playcalling, and the other 11 players + coaches don't matter in outcomes then that's fine. But please stop pretending like this is some profound revelation rather than your personal means of framing an issue. Tony Romo has made the playoffs once and seemingly folds in big games. Are you prepared to say that he's not a franchise guy? I would think so just going on your logic.

    Garbage time TD's matter if the other team is still playing defense like they were at the beginning of the game. Again, you judge players on their performances vs. implications while I'd rather judge their performances based on who they're playing against, trends, and statistics relative to league expectations.
     
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  35. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Compiling stats will get you so far. Had he performed against the Ravens the way he performed against the Vikings, this conversation isn't happening. Those games were not created equal. One of them was far more important than the other.
    He's made it 3 times, each of his first 3 years as a starter. That's part of the reason I see him as a franchise guy. But he also has never had a passer rating below 90, and his ypa has never been below 7.
    Sigh...it's not either or. I get stats and I see big-picture improvement from Tannehill in most cases. I like him...I'm just not at the point of calling him a franchise guy because I have several reservations about his game (most of which stem back to college). I would not, for instance, sign him to a $100M extension tomorrow. Would you? Unfortunately he's establishing a trend from last year: struggling in games where a win would've resulted in a huge boost for our playoff hopes. Is this the only thing on which I've built my opinion of him? No. But it's the discussion at hand here at the end of the season. I want him to be in the QB mix next year, but again I am just not at the point of putting all our eggs in this basket, nor am I a proponent of signing him to an extension.

    The difference here is more accurately worded: I consider implications as part of the eval, and you don't.
     
  36. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agreed. At this point he has earned it.
     
  37. Coloradotrv

    Coloradotrv Well-Known Member

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    RT gets his option exercised and then another 5 year contract if he continues at his current pace.

    Would hate to see what would happen if he was released. NE would sign him, bench him until Brady retires, and then he would light up the AFC east for a decade...
     
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  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I think you unfairly weight the effect that his teammates have had in losses, like the two to end last season, and most of the losses this year. I think you also don't weight enough that he is just coming to the end of his third year, after being drafted as a project. Dude has stats putting him in the top 10 this year...and essentially you're still questioning whether or not he should be our long term guy. That just doesn't sound like a reasonable evaluation.
     
  39. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    Yes his teammates matter of course...but how many times do you really want to dip into that excuse when it comes to evaluating the most important player on the field? As I see it, he's 1-4 in big elimination/playoff situation games (his one win being the tremendous game he played against New England last year). But in those four losses with our season on the line we scored three total touchdowns. To me that reflects at least in part on the QB.

    Other reservations I have about him are...
    - low ypa
    - week-to-week inconsistency
    - lack of natural leadership
    - never shown sustained greatness
    - spotty improvising/playmaking although he seems to have the physical ability

    What makes these bigger concerns are that these were also questions surrounding him at A&M, and in three NFL seasons they are still negatives in his eval. (The team he captained at A&M severely underachieved: preseason top-10, finished unranked.) Are these reservations, based on all 5 years of his experience at the position, really that unreasonable?

    He has the tools, he flashes occasional greatness, he was in a new system, and he plays under a terrible HC. I get all that. But that doesn't mean there aren't things that might signal a meh future projection for him.
     
  40. Coloradotrv

    Coloradotrv Well-Known Member

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    We are literally 3 plays away from this discussion not even happening right now.

    Those 3 plays were where our DEFENSE failed to hold up their end of the bargain.

    RT is young and inconsistent. Had a total of 16 starts at QB for Texas A&M and is in his 3rd year of QB at the NFL level. RT was always a very talented, high upside, high potential, project. Everyone knew that when he was drafted. The project part is why some were surprised Miami took him and others weren't. We are seeing the good RT much more often then the bad RT now. No reason to expect his progression to stop next year.
     

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