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The Dolphins' Defensive Collapse Had More to Do With?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Dec 23, 2014.

The collapse has more to do with?

Poll closed Jan 6, 2015.
  1. The players, not talented enough, not executing

    30 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. The coach / scheme

    30 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You're getting a littttle carried away with a coincidence. There are far more plausible reasons such as: an undersized D-line that features minimal rotation at DT getting worn down which is mostly a Coyle/Philbust/Hickey problem; or opposing defensive coordinators quickly figuring out how to exploit Coyle's D, one that starts a pair of weakside edge rushers at both DE spots which presents an inherent schematic vulnerability. Plus the defense won't become consistent until it has someone experienced enough in recognizing offensive formations and getting guys lined up accordingly, shifting fronts if they need shifting, audibling in and out of plays, blitz, etc who knows how to cohesively lead a group of 11 men and maintain their focus, discipline, and intensity.
     
    RoninFin4 likes this.
  2. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    So basically this team is going to be great if Tannehill continues to develop or will continue to be mediocre if he doesn't.

    I guess according to this logic, it doesn't matter how good the defense is or how good the players around him are on offense.

    Unfortunately you can have the best QB in the league on your team and still not win a Super Bowl, if the other parts of the team aren't talented enough. Just ask Dan Marino if he wouldn't have loved a dominant defense and a top tier running back while he was playing in Miami.

    If having a great QB is all it takes to being a great team, the Dolphins would have won several Super Bowls while Marino was their QB.

    No matter how much more Tannehill develops as an NFL QB, this team isn't going to get any better without a big upgrade in talent on defense and the offensive line. There are just too many mediocre players on the roster at this time and no matter how much Tannehill develops, he will never be Dan Marino and Marino never won a Super Bowl because he had a mediocre defense and mediocre RB's on the roster for the majority of his career with the Dolphins.

    To me there is only one great team each season. That is the team which wins the Super Bowl. So you stating this team is going to be great if Tannehill continues to develop doesn't mean a lot to me a this time.

    I'll settle for them being good enough to actually make the playoffs first. Then we can talk about them getting to the Super Bowl and winning it. The next time they are Super Bowl Champions is when you can consider them a great team, IMO. Until then, they are just another also ran in the NFL with a lot of mediocre talent on their roster at this time.
     
  3. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Should of had a 'both' button, Scheme has been terrible at times, but there is no denying that we need a big NT, a solid CB #2, a FS, and another LB and depth at nearly every position and addition by subtraction would be nice (P. Wheeler, J. Wilson, D. Ellerbe).
     
  4. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why is it that after the slightest mention of something positive, like the appearance of a QB in Miami, people want to fight? I hope you understand that you're reading way too much into what I wrote, so to me, it just seems like a hostile post meant to start a fight and I don't want to do that. I don't want to put you on 'ignore,' but I feel like every one of your posts in my direction is contentious and argumentative.

    Let me introduce myself to you personally so we can start having a little more mutual respect. I was a member of another forum dedicated to Dolphin football for about 7-8 years. It was a good forum and had a great variety of posters. Some were ex-players (even as high as ACC Universities), some were high school coaches, etc. Some people were easy to get along with and some were very hostile and loved attacking others. Slowly that forum lost all of its best contributors because of life changes. Some people probably got sick of the folks who were so insulting. The folks who just wanted to talk football became a minority and sadly, a once great forum with lots of really educated and experienced people fell into decline. And one day I realized that I wasn't a member of a healthy group from which I could learn. I realized that I was just going to a site on the internet where I could read the posts of two immature people having a argument about nothing. At that point I realized I was wasting my time and I was embarrassed to still be a member where back and forth bickering was par for the course.

    So that's what led me to this forum. This forum has more activity than most, but it's also apparently one of the most hostile and divided. So I'd undecided as to what I should do. While there are some folks here that I have learned in short order to respect (even a variety who don't share my particular philosophy and each and every issue), there seem to be an overwhelming number who just want to argue about stupid and meaningless things. EVERY thread becames an argument. Arguing about whether or not Tannehill can be "elite." Arguing about who hate the HC more. Arguing abut whether the team should rebuild. And how much of that is real football discussion. I would say almost none of it. It's mostly immature arguments because folks who can't just say "we disagree on this small issue."

    I'm sure you're a nice guy but maybe we just start over because you clearly think I'm an idiot and are looking for something to argue about with me.

    Let's just not do that, okay? I'm not an idiot and neither are you.

    The only thing I was saying was that Tannehill's development will have the most impact on the future of the team. As long as he continues to shine, the Dolphins will be competitive and if the talent around him is constantly improving, we'll be set for great success.

    Do we really need to argue about that? C'mon. Do you see why it's annoying when people want to argue about everything. It doesn't improve anything about a forum. It really is hurtful to everyone when people have agendas.
     
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  5. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    Injuries and scheme

    I saw one nice adjustment by Coyle at halftime, and that was against the Jets. Problem is,his scheme got raped and he should have adjusted much sooner.
    You don't let Geno Smith or those College ball plays beat an NFL team. That's when I knew the DC had to go.
     
  6. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If the only games I'd watched were those over the last month, I'd think this defense, its players and its coaches were all horrible.

    But how were we so good early on? We were stopping the run well and playing decently against the pass.

    In week 5 or 6 I would've told you the defense was the backbone and strength of the team. Now, I'd say it's probably the weakest part.
     
  7. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Btw, Ronin, I loved your earlier posts so I'm not disagreeing with you at all. You have pretty much convinced me that Coyle isn't optimizing talent. While you may not have been the first to point it out, you clearly demonstrate the case as well as anyone has to this point so props to you on that.

    But why were we so good early in the season? It's not like we've been bad all season long.

    You mentioned the DT rotation being a little thin. I agree on that. I think Odrick is solid, not great. I think Mitchell is a good player. God only knows how worn out Starks probably is at this point. We definitely don't have a ton of depth there, nor do we have the kind of talent that we'd like to. I'll be the first to say that we need to address the DT position this off-season, maybe just as much as we do the Guard position.
     
  8. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's the rub, and I really think it's based on gameplanning week-to-week. I mean, take week one for example. Barely a whole quarter into the game and Miami's got all 3 backup LBs, at the time, in the game at that point. But, we also so Coyle use creative packages such as shifting OV to DT next to Wake and using the 3-4 look. He also had some creative zone coverages with Finnegan in the slot. Rob Gronkowski also played like 20 snaps.

    The very next week, you see E.J. Manuel and Sammy Watkins, in his second game, just feasting on zone concepts and Will Davis' man-to-man coverage.

    Kansas City thrashed Miami because Kevin Coyle thought it'd be cool to have Wake and OV trying to cover Knile Davis and the other backs coming out of the backfield. They also got gashed up the middle in the run game, and Jimmy Wilson was astoundingly good at missing tackles.

    After that, you get Derrick Carr, a rookie, and he lights you up for the first drive before the pressure starts hitting home.

    The Green Bay game was a tale of two halves. As was Jacksonville.

    I mean, when you really look at it, the only complete games Miami played great defense all the way through were Chicago (Cutler) and San Diego (injury ridden at the time). I think that's important to note. Miami's played New England with a not-healthy Gronkowski, two rookie QBs - Carr and Bortles, and a banged up San Diego team and feasted on them. Everyone else...not so much. There are flashes of brilliance like the 1st half against Green Bay and quarters 2, 3 and 4 up until the last drive against Detroit, but I mean, other than that...?

    I just think if you're objective and look at it, this scheme is not a good fit for most of the personnel #1. #2, Kevin Coyle is not good at in-game adjustments and sometimes he'll miss the boat outright. Other times he's got you pegged; but I mean, even Jeff Ireland pegged some damn good players too. #3, Miami's defensive personnel, particularly at LB is pretty sub-par aside from Jelani Jenkins. You've got two old CBs, an inconsistent D-line rotation, and even some individual players like OV are inconsistent week-to-week. Cameron Wake bears the brunt of double-teams and natural disadvantages based on alignments because of OV, and he's worn down. #4, this team, as it stacks up across the league, is probably in the bottom 10 in terms of tackling. They're just not fundamentally sound...and we've heard this for 3 YEARS now.

    Obviously, it's on the players to execute the scheme, but I contend that the scheme and gameplanning is not putting them in optimal positions to make their job (executing) easier. That's why I'd be thrilled if Miami was able to lure in a Rex Ryan or shifted back to a 3-4 scheme as you'd be putting your best player(s) Wake, Jenkins, perhaps OV and Dion Jordan, into more optimal positions.

    By comparison, if you look at what makes Cincinnati successful, as they run virtually the same scheme, they have better talent top-to-bottom at the LB unit, and as a team, other than Rey Maualuga, they tackle well. They've also got bigger bodies all across the D-line as compared to Miami at all 4 positions up front. IMO, it comes down to Kevin Coyle not maximizing what he's got and trying to force what he's learned into Miami. The result being that each of the 3 years he's been here, the Dolphins have allowed MORE points than they did the year before. It's all well and good that they've improved against the pass...but rushing TDs still count the same, and that's one area that's just totally collapsed.
     
  9. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok, so I'm on board 100% with what you're saying then. In that case...

    A) Is there any way that despite a knowledge of what you describe Philbin elects to keep Coyle? There would seem to be very little, if any, upside to retaining Coyle.

    B) Who could we get to replace Coyle? I assume the bigger names (Bowles, Ryan, etc.) will be unavailable.

    C) What are the odds that we switch to a 34? Do you think that there's any way it actually happens?
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, I don't think we were "so good" early in the season. I've said almost since the beginning, that we were a fraudulent, overrated defense. Not stopping teams on third down, especially third and long, was a problem last year, and all year this year. Fourth quarter meltdowns have been par for the course for two years. I know we've had injuries, but I really feel like these issues have been occurring for so long, and even with our starters, that it has to be linked to coaching.
     
  11. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I was gonna say the collapse of the offensive line to be the biggest factor.

    It's true and obvious that 3 and outs by the offense takes a toll on the defense.

    The greatest battle of three and outs was the snowbowl game late in Foxboro. Teddy Bruschi made an amazing interception at the los and sauntered into the end zone for the win. That was the pinnacle of our defensive prowess since the '70's. Not possible without Bowens and Gardener. Our DT's are too light in the pants...
     
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  12. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Perhaps I should tell you a little bit about myself.

    I have been a Dolphin fan since 1966. I was an original member of the Dolphins Huddle club and I was in attendance when Joe Auer returned the very first kickoff in Dolphin history for a TD.

    I have attended well over 300 Dolphin games, home and away over the past 48 years. My wife and I moved from South Florida to Hawaii this past January, so this was the first season since I was in the military which I didn't attend at least one Dolphin game.

    While I will be a Dolphin fan until the day I die. My disappointment with the ownership of the Dolphins over the past few years has made it very difficult for me to be positive in regards to the direction of this team with the present owner.

    I apologize if my statements to you come off as argumentative. My frustration is with Ross and how inept I feel he is as an owner, but sometimes my frustration with him gets directed at some individuals on this forum instead.

    I would love to be as positive about the future of the Dolphins as you are. In fact I would love for you to be 100% correct about this being a great team in the near future. Unfortunately I just don't have the same faith in the leadership of the Dolphins as you do.

    I appreciate that you took the time to express your views on my comments to you and to basically introduce yourself to me and the others on the forum who may not have taken time to respond to your comments in the past.

    While I am sure we will have other issues we may not agree on in the future, I hope any future comments to you don't lead you to believe they are directed at you in an argumentative nature. I don't know you or anyone else on this forum by anything other than the comments you make on this forum. I certainly don't want to demean or belittle any other poster on here.

    Sometimes I just let my total frustration with this Dolphins ownership get the best of me and it leads to some of my posts coming off as negative to another poster. I'm truly sorry if I have offended you by any of my comments to you and I will certainly attempt to prevent my frustration from appearing to negate the relevance of the insightful comments which you bring to this forum.

    We may not always agree, but I do agree that being argumentative too often doesn't really add anything of substance to this forum. I hope in the future our discussions can be mutually satisfying for both of us and I vow to try and limit my argumentative nature when responding to your posts.

    Sorry again and I hope you and your family and everyone else on the forum have a wonderful holiday season.
     
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  13. Phins Up Wins Up

    Phins Up Wins Up Banned

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    It's both but more to do with the coaches and scheme. Those losses to Green Bay and Detroit on the final drive were conservative prevent defense. They went away from blitzing which got them the lead. Abandoned what got them in position to win. Then they stopped doing it hoping time would run out before they could score. Not to mention taking timeouts at the worst times. I was afraid those losses would keep the Dolphins out of the playoffs and they did.
     
  14. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Just watched the GB game again on NFL rewind, and it made me think about something I may have forgotten in the week after the game. We lost by 3 on a last second TD pass as we all know. The initial reaction is to either blame Coyle for the defensive alignment on the final play, or blame Wheeler for allowing the catch, or to blame Finnegan for letting Adams get out of bounds uncontested. For the game though, we had 3 turnovers and the Packers had none. Rodgers being the great QB that he is, just cannot be given that kind of advantage. Few teams win when they are -3 in TO ratio. Had we protected the ball better early in the game, perhaps it does not come down to that final drive where if they score a TD they win. Then too, just getting one key turnover ourselves may have been enough to turn the tide. Each team gets only so many chances to possess the ball and score during a game. When our team gives the ball away on 3 of those possessions, and the other team never does, we put ourselves at a significant disadvantage. Then to only lose by 3 while being -3 in TOs, it tells me if we had been able to keep the TO ratio even, we would have likely won that game by at least 2 scores.
     
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  15. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think that and getting stopped early on on the 4th & goal play were HUGE differences. Even if Miami settled for the FG there, they probably win.
     
  16. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought all three phases of the game let down at the end of that game. The O wasn't able to get a first down, the punt coverage gave up a 15-20 yard return and the D, well, we know what happened there. It was a team loss.


    P.S. Still, a veteran CB should be able to do better than that. I mean, I was watching the play and thinking, "Fake spike!", surely he should have been as well. Even if not a better tackling effort would have helped.
     
  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Coming away from that drive with not even 3 points was huge. Had we gotten 3 there, that would have offset one of those turnovers maybe. The Packers are very possibly going to the Super Bowl or at least the NFCCG and they are really no talented overall than we are.
     

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