I'm out on Tannehill

Their starting line is better than Miami's IMO. Max Unger has missed a lot of time this year, and he is one of the best centers in the league, so when he isn't there they miss him.

 

I totally agree with you. DJ is one of the original members, and someone I respect a great deal. So what if we do not always agree? We can keep it civil. I hate it when some johnny come lately posters start insulting and attacking him. Even if I may agree with their opinion of RT17. If you newbies disagree with DJ about RT17 that is all well and good, but leave out the ad hominem posts directed toward him.

 

Who are you to decide that? If you don't like the thread just ignore it. Simple solution.

 

Here is what I see, Tanny has progressed each year and I see no reason he can't get even better next year. We know he can run but is no Wilson or Kap when running.

When you watch games with the so called running QB's (RG3, Johny football, Kap etc) the so called experts all say they will never be better until they learn to stay in the pocket and throw the ball. We see Tanny stay in the pocket and deliver passes down field and get killed as he releases it, I mean I don't know how the dude is still in one piece, when he steps up in the pocket there are no holes for him to take off and run, he gets crushed. I mean I dont know what some of you expect.

Is it no reasonable to say if we had even a little bit better Oline play that Tanny could have thrown 35 td passes this year? Would you not all of you sign up for that?

The main problem with this team was OLine and the defense falling apart in 4th quarters over and over again.

 

Agreed. According to PFF, the Seahawks rank 17th in pass blocking while Miami ranks 31st. When you look at their stats, they are pretty comparable in terms of sacks and QB rating. The big difference is Wilson has the benefit of THE best running game and defense in the NFL.

If Wilson doesn't perform, the Seahawks can still win. If Tannehill doesn't perform, the Dolphins lose. That's why they are the Super Bowl champs and we are a perennial 8-8 team. They have a complete team.

 

I think there is another aspect not being considered. Yes Ryan is a pretty fast QB when running North and South, but he does not have the same kind of lateral agility if say Kap or Wilson.

Imagine your 17. ball is snapped and you set up in the pocket, by the time you just read that the pocket collapses from the interior and the edge. While this is happening he is still going through his progressions because that is what pocket QBs do. He's not stopping and now looking for running lanes. He doesnt have the same lateral agility to escape like Wilson. So he gets sacked.

but you know what he's not doing? He's not panicking and throwing off his back foot and turning the ball over. He isn't costing us games.

 

And I think that's the area about which we need more information. For example, he may be instructed to stay in the pocket and go through his progression to aid his development in that area, regardless of what's going on with the pass rush. In other words, the team may be willing to take sacks at this point in his development, to get a greater payoff in the future when he perhaps has a very finely-tuned ability to go through his progression. At that point he can more often choose to pay more attention to the pass rush and escape the pocket if need be.

We don't know what he's being instructed to do, and it's entirely possible that a developmental QB in an offense centered around pocket passing is being instructed to develop with regard to his progression first and foremost, rather than his escapability.

 

Wilson does carry that team! No way they win the Super Bowl without him last year.

 

I dont know how they rank that, but I watch a lot of the Seattle games and Wilson is running away from pressure on almost every single pass play. If he stood back there like Tannehill his sacks would be off the charts.

 

You mean Lynch and the defense carries that team. Wilson is a good quarterback and is important, yet he is not the most important cog.

Heck, without Bobby Wagner the Seahawks were a mediocre team this season.

 

No way that team goes any where without that defense and Lynch. I like Russell Wilson and all, but he does have limits as well.

 

Right.. And when he breaks off and runs from the pressure is he still having to go through his reads? our offense is not and cannot be run ad lib. It's all timing based and three to four route options on any given play. If Tannehill breaks and scrambles he can't go through his reads. So much of his struggles are also do to that internal clock saying I'm about to get crushed. The dude has been hit as much in three years as Carr did and look what it did to his career. 17 hasn't regressed in this environment, he's excelled

 

And his sacks are off the charts anyway. Wilson's number of sacks in the past three years has been about 0.4 fewer per game than Tannehill's. He has 20 fewer sacks in 48 regular season games.

 

I think that Tannehill is the part of the team that has been most singly affected by the coaching problems. From starting out with his 'old' coach who didn't at all help him grow or, surprisingly, play to his strengths, through to learning a new offense as well as facing changing schemes and plans and decisions often not for the best I think Tannehill might have been the one who has had to juggle the most. This on top of the OL situation. Are those guarantees of anything? Nope. I get the feeling though, that if he hasn't been partially ruined by the start he's had, if he went to a better coached team I think he'd excel. Tannehill playing for Belichick for instance?

 

I think Deej maybe started the thread off in a confrontational way by saying, "Bring it on", kinda like he knew he was gonna get hammered by this and was ready to argue. He and I have gone round and round about the whole running QB issue, and even though I disagree with his assessment of Tannehill, I do agree that we need to maybe use him more in the running game. But , it isnt always Tanny running where the impact can be felt.

That play that Miller ran for 97 yards? He broke that because of the potential for Tanny to run. The read option caused the Jets defense to react to late to Miller getting the ball, and it was off to the races. So while he didnt run there, it was still because of his ability to run that allowed that play to work. I would argue thats the reason Miller has been able to have such a high YPC this season.

And to all those really getting down on DJ, hes one of our best. Its ok to not agree with him, but be cool. This place wouldnt be nearly the same if here were not here.

 

Ok. Then show me an instance where there's some data point of a QB that started his first 3 years, didn't make the playoffs, and went on to become a great QB. That's all I'm asking. I'm not trying to be a prick here. I just haven't found that to be the case ANYWHERE. Like not one single person or player.

And sure some players are afforded the luxury of sitting a year or two, but look at those guys who sat. They had immediate success right out of the games in years 1 or 2 - Eli, Rivers, Rodgers, Favre, Cunningham, Young, etc.

I mean every single scenario is different & unique. I totally get that. Some guys fall into a great sitaution, while others have great players available to them, etc.

But to not have 1 damn data point or scenario similar to Ryan Tannehill's? Does that not at all at least jive with DJ's thoughts that this isn't a guy that can consistently get us to the playoffs or perform in the playoffs when we get there?

And trust me, if Ryan Tannehill starts for the Miami Dolphins for another 4 years, WE WILL get to the playoffs at least once. It's bound to happen. We're going to have something go our way. It may even be next year with what I think could be a softer schedule. But, will it sustain?

This was all driven with the idea that a poster said Ryan Tannehill is already great. He is not great, and there should be some worry that he may never be great...which again is what DJ is saying.

 

It's always something right?

Those are some valid points. Some are more valid than others. I disagree with a few.

All I'm asking is show me an instance where a great QB spawned from not making the playoffs within his first 3 years of starting. That's it. If you can show me, then I'll get off that premise.

And I'm not saying it's the end all be all. Ryan had a fantastic statistical year this. Just fantastic. I'm excited about 2015 for him. However, all the stats in the world mean crap, if you can't lead your team into the playoffs.

As fans we need to be leery of this rationalization for the guy too. I get it. His OL was garbage and he didn't get much help from the defense. However, when you keep making excuses for guys you start entering Jeff George & Jay Cutler type territories. You lean on stats, and well he didn't have this, or didn't have that, when other guys are just plainly leading their team's better because that's the most important function of the QB position IMO.

 

But, I think you cant just look at that as a blanket statement, did not make playoffs. An argument could be made that Tannehill played well enough the last two seasons to get us to the playoffs, especially this season. The defensive collapse was what caused us to miss the playoffs. We only had to win one of two last games last season to get in.

If your looking at the big picture, of the teams that made the playoffs this season and last, if you put Ryan Tannehill in as their QB, would they still have made the playoffs.

I dont think youd find many people who would say no.

 

Certainly, and that's consistent with what I said earlier in the thread about "TIER 2" teams -- how well they do depends on the strength of the talent surrounding their quarterbacks. That, however, doesn't mean Tannehill is in "TIER 1," where teams are likely to make the playoffs far more as a function of quarterback play alone, and far less as a function of surrounding talent. And it doesn't mean, either, that he's in "TIER 3," where teams are likely to do very poorly on the basis of quarterback play alone, again regardless of their surrounding talent.

I see this view as consistent with what the original poster said in the first post.

 

The post was not stated that Tannehill could not run. We all know that he can. The post was that he does not do that while going back to pass. He will often just stand there until he is sacked. No movement in or out of the pocket. Several times I thought move up in the pocket only to see him stand there and get sacked by the ends.

The ability for Tannehill to be able to run is not the issue, certainl he can. The question is why is he not doing it do avoid pressure.

 

Without the running game??? You mean Lynch that averaged LESS yards a carry then out 1000 yard back?

Do you realize that awesome running game you mentioned got 800 plus rushing yards from.....................Wilson????

The team does not win it all without Wilson.

Take out Wilson yards and that puts them 3 yards a game better then us in rushing around 10th in the league.

 

And the response many of us have had, is if you go back and look at the sacks Tannehill has taken, its been by and large a result of pressure from the inside as well as the ends. When your guards are getting tossed aside, there is no pocket to step up into. I cant really remember one sack he took where it was by an end, and it was a result of him just standing there to long. Hes been sacked by and end, when the tackle gets beat and he gets hit blind side.

Just go back and look at his sacks prior to loosing Branden Albert. Albert and James were not giving up the sacks on Tannehill. Our tackles were pass protecting very well. Our guards were the ones getting roasted. You look at every single QB in the league. You get pressure on a QB up the middle they suffer hard core. How do you beat Tom Brady? Pressure up the middle. Manning? Pressure up the middle. If the ends set the edge and keep 17 contained, they then blitz the A gaps, or their defensive linemen beat their one on one matchups and wheres 17 to go?

 

I think its fools gold to say they win with out all three things. Thats the point. But I can guarantee you this. Put 17 on the SeaHawks and you think they are any worse then they are now? Would they have won that Super Bowl last season with Tannehill as a QB. Id whole heartedly put my money on saying yes.

 

There are certainly times where what you descibed does occur, but not on all the sacks. Many times he can step up in the pocket.

When you have 3 new OL's. 2 new OC, 2 new OL coaches and the same thing continues to happen, you kinda have to ask maybe something else is wrong. There is only one other thing that has been constant.

I will give you this. Why was the team able to avoid pressure issues in the Denver game and then suddenly stopped doing that, if it was an offensive design to control the pressure.

 

OMG yes they would be a worse team if 17 were their QB he would have been sacked twice as many times as Wilson was. OMG YES that is an easy answer . Those 800 yards by Wilson were not all by design many were him escaping pressure, something Tannehill cannot do. No way in hell they win super bowl with Tannehill as their QB,
w

 

It's entirely possible. Seattle had one of the best pass defenses of all time last year, and so in a league oriented around the passing game, they were able to do something to a degree rarely done ever before -- shut down other teams' passing games virtually completely.

Look what happened to Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl -- 73.5 QB rating, 2 INTs (including a pick-six), 5.7 YPA, 8 points scored as a team. Could Ryan Tannehill have beaten them that day? Probably. I'm not sure the score differential would've been as great, because Seattle wouldn't have been up by as many points early, and wouldn't have forced Denver to pass as much as they did, but could he have won the game? Certainly.

But again this gets back to the point I made earlier -- a "TIER 2" quarterback can win a Super Bowl with a very strong surrounding cast.

 

And my point is, Tannehill would be crowned a Tier 1 QB if he had a halfway competent oline and defense. An 11-5 team cruising to the playoffs, with Tannehill's stats? Everyone would throwing out the word "elite."

 

We should of took RW3 in top ten and let SEA draft RT17 in 3rd round where he rightfully belonged considering he was a 'project' QB.

 

Why wouldn't they simply be saying about him what they said about quarterbacks like Joe Flacco and Eli Manning, who also won Super Bowls?

 

I would disagree about last year. Ryan Tannehill and the rest of the offense played like hot garbage against Buffalo & New York Jets. At some point, your QB has to just step up and make plays. Again, to DJ's point, if the play isn't there to be had, what does he do? That's the worry he and I both have.

Minnesota was a prime example of what it looked like when I guy just carried a team. So, he has that ability. We need to see more of it, especially in December to get us into the playoffs.

And I agree, it's a completely odd blanket statement with so many different variables. But, if there are so many variables and it stretches for now 25 years!, then why hasn't there been one issue like Tannehill's? That's all I'm saying. There's holes in that statement absolutely. I just find it odd that we've yet to see a "great" QB come out if they haven't made the playoffs in their first 3 years. That's all.

 

Actually plenty of people threw the word "elite" out about this guy's following Super Bowl wins. They also had much more complete teams around them. And by complete, I dining mean other units playing at, at least, decent levels. Give Tannehill the defenses that Flacco had, and he really wins probably 12 games this year.

 

That's because when you throw passes at 1 yard per attempt, you can get a lot more of them in across a 100 yard field. That has nothing to do with anything.

 

Like I said, you could surround any of the QBs on the teams I listed in "TIER 2" (including the Dolphins) with stellar talent, and it's entirely possible they win the Super Bowl. That doesn't mean, however, that any of those teams would suddenly have "TIER 1" QBs on them.

 

Do you realize how you loose any credibility to be part of this argument by saying this..

 

He was just exaggerating a valid point that when you throw as much as Miami does, 4000 yards in a season is expected at a minimum. Anything less then 4000 from RT17 would of been a disappointment considering he started every game and threw the ball more then the most teams.

 

Who said stellar talent?? I didn't. We haven't even seen Tannehill have average play from his oline our defense.

 

Again, DJ, you talk about escaping...but you have yet to answer where you want him escaping to. When the DEs are coming around the outside, and you inherit is shoved back into your face, and you have 7-8 defenders in coverage waiting for you to throw or try to run, where do you go??