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I'm out on Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Dec 28, 2014.

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  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, I don't know, I don't think Wallace did what people thought he would do for Tannehill they brought him in. I think Wallace has actually hurt Tannehill, at least in the deep ball area. Albert was a huge help, obviously, as is a good LT for any QB. James isn't a pro bowler yet, so let's chill with him. Clay has been good, but not anything extraordinary. I talk about improvement needed, and you automatically start talking offense. I'm more concerned with defense and special teams. That is where Tannehill needs common talent the most. If he'd gotten decent play from the defense the kicker, our season still going right now. Hell, just the defense and our season is still going right now. Yes, I want the offensive line improved, and I want another receiver, but defense is the biggest area of need right now.

    I've said it too many times to count...had our defense done its job, regardless of what the offense did or didn't do, we'd be in the playoffs, and Tannehill's stats could be exactly the same as they are now, and and we'd be arguing about who Tannehill should be replacing in the Pro Bowl.
     
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  2. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Defense?....Whats a Defense? And what could they have to do with our record? Or not making the playoffs? We did not make the playoffs because we can't hit a long ball and our QB does not run enough...very simple. Anything else should not even be considered.
     
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  3. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Sacks 1st eight games:

    Pats: 1 sack
    Bills: 4 sacks
    Chiefs: 4 sacks
    Raiders: 0 sacks
    Packers: 1 sack
    Bears: 4 sacks
    Jags: 3 sacks
    Chargers: 0 sacks

    17 sacks

    Sacks 2nd eight games:
    Lions: 3 sacks - Lost Albert.
    Bills: 5 sacks
    Broncos: 1 sack
    jets: 2 sacks
    Ravens: 6 sacks
    Pats: 4 sacks - Lost Thomas.
    Vikes: 1 sack
    jets: 7 sacks - Lost James. Wilkerson, Harris, and Couples randomly dry humped Colledge at will.

    29 sacks - almost double the first half of the season.

    Not judging either the OL or Tannehill by sacks alone, but there are obvious issues there.

    Also, teams are concentrating on having a guy spy on him because he is a threat to run. That threat had a direct impact on Miller's very good season. It also determines whether Tannehill decides to run or not.
     
  4. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Bran put up the numbers differentiating between us and the Seahawks.

    Offense:

    Total Offense points:
    Seahawks: 394
    Dolphins: 388

    6 points difference.


    Offense PPG:
    Seahawks: 24.6
    Dolphins: 24.3

    .3 ppg difference.


    ===

    Defense

    PPG:
    Seahawks: 15.9
    Dolphins: 23.3

    7.4 PPG difference per game.

    Total points:
    Seahawks: 254
    Dolphins: 373

    119 point Difference.

    Passing YPG:
    Seahawks: 185.6
    Dolphins: 222.3

    36.7 YPG difference.

    Rushing YPG:
    Seahawks: 81.5
    Dolphins: 121.1

    39.6 YPG difference.

    ===

    AFCE:

    The Fins scored 24.3 ppg (388 total points) and the defense gave up 23.3.
    The Pats scored 29.3 ppg (468 total points). Points against 19.6.

    Difference: 80 points. 5 PPG for. 3.7 against.
     
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  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm sorry, you claimed that ryan tannehill has more upside than Wilson, and that he can become as nifty in the pocket as rogers..both evals I vehemently disagree with..my eval is that I don't trust ryan to make enough plays when protection breaks down in order to take a team to a championship, your evals are much more outlandish than mine.

    tannehill isn't in wilson league, and has shown nothing of sorts of the brilliance that comes from aaron rogers breaking a pocket and making plays, both statements are absurd to me in this regard, you just took the two best individual improvisational playmaking qbs in the game today and compared those traits to ryan tannehill...thats...not even close to being accurate imo..but I love ya man.
     
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  6. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    I must be the only one who remembers Rodgers getting lit up and knocked out for sitting in the pocket too long or not evading pressure.
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    that offense got outscore 75 to 10 in the last three games in the 2nd half..lets stop blaming sides...our team is so average across the board its not even funny.
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    not sure what it is your trying to say or prove but its bizarre.

    both their anticipation of the rush is two steps ahead of their counterparts, both of their vision peripherally is something ryan does not have, their quickness in their legs is outstanding their ability to think about manipulating defenders with deeks and shoulder fakes shows their comfortability while making the play..Their precision with their bodies thru traffic is elite.

    taking an example of rogers getting hit in the pocket and whatever it is your doing is... i don't know...what i do know is ryan does not belong in the conversation with those two on any level...hes a pocket passer...they are both dual threats who understand how to use their legs to attack and win.
     
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  9. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So you think that the fact this defense could not stop a rolling tire and making this offense one dimensional, had anything to do with it. Granted, Good offenses respond to bad situations, but the minute we had to match score for score, with sub par pass protection, we had no chance. And that is all on our D's shoulders.
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So, those last three games, our defense gave up an average of 25 points in the second half of games...And you want me to get on board with going after Tannehill and the offense?? Yeah, scoring 10 points, or 3.3 points per second half, is not good...but one of those numbers is so much worse than the other. And with the second half offense slumps you have to look directly at ****ty oline play. Not to mention, there were a couple dropped tds in the Pats game at least. point is, of course, that despite these stats, they don't necessarily tell the story, at least as far as Tannehill goes.
     
  11. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    The fact that you don't think Tannehill can use his legs to attack is pretty much all that needs to be said. If that's what you saw this year then idk what you were watching.
     
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  12. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    exactly, and to go a little further in order for the dolphins to overcome the 119 fewer points that seattle's defense gave up compared to the dolphins defense, the miami dolphins would have to score an average of 30.3 points a game. only 1 team in the NFL scored more than 30.3 pts a game and that was greenbay. denver had 30.1 pts a game, being the only other team to average more than 30 a game.
     
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  13. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is what I was responding to:

    So, are you saying it's a Lazor problem or not? Also, he isn't just reading the end this year. Lazor's read option is much more sophisticated than Sherman's. My disagreement isn't based on protecting Tannehill. I think he is making the correct reads. I think with a seasons worth of play in the system, and an other off-season Ryan is going make a lot of this criticism look silly next year. We shall see...
     
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  14. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Rodgers was the most sacked QB in the league from 2008-13. He sat behind Favre till his 4th season, so let's see where RT is next year and compare it to Rodgers' 4th year.

    Russel Wilson doesn't even belong in the convo, I'll chalk that up to you having a personal preference on style of play from the position bc outside of scrambling he's inferior to Tannehill in every aspect of the game.
     
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  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    i agree bro, defense quit on coyle..doesnt men we should of been able to score more than 10 pints in three halves of games when the games counted.
     
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  16. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    I'm not sure an improvement in the team's record by virtue of improving the defense, without an improvement in Tannehill's individual performance, would make Tannehill more suitable as a Pro Bowl player than the QBs who actually made it (Rodgers, Brady, Romo, Roethlisberger, Manning, Luck). Tannehill is a ways down the list from those guys with regard to the important QB statistics.
     
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  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    strictly from the pocket, for their careers, which doesn't even begin to encompass the greatness of russell wilsons dual threat game, wilson has a better passer rating, 98.6, has a higher ypa, 7.9, and is just as accurate..64%

    please man, this is getting embarrassing comparing tannehill to wilson and rogers..
     
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  18. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I luv ya Deej but cmon now, how do you play offense for 60 mins with what we had the last half of the season?

    We gotta run 65-70 plays, where do they come from?

    We can only run Miller 14-16 times beforw he wears down. DT and DW are ineffective as runners and also kill the play action game. The other 40 or so plays fall on RT, with his bad pass pro and WR group that struggles to shake coverage.

    Seriously, what was Lazor supposed to do?
     
  19. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Not if you look at Rogers in his third year in the league and third year in the same system. At that point he was considered mechanical and his team was scouring the draft for a QB to replace Favre. And Wilson and Tannehill are in exactly the same level as far as not being good enough to carry a team when their D and run game is non-existent. None of that is outlandish. But you're so focused on the QB's ability to run that you ignore how good Tannehill is from the pocket. That's what his job is +90% of the time. And that's what's going to determine his ceiling.
     
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  20. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    this will be the last time i will make a post regarding this chewed out ridiculous topic, but anyways..how can you expect a 6-4 guy to be in the same league with a 5-11 QB athletic wise, wilson has that short area burst that makes him more effective, when tryng to avoid the rush, i think wilson at this point is even trying to run more than to pass...which is not very good imo, but anyways tannehill is a kind of long strider and needs some yards to get going, with this pass pro, especially after albert went down (remember our boy had a streak going of i believe it was 3 games in a row with 30 yard runs pre albert injury) it was impossible to make something happen, this is not madden, there is no speed button...
     
  21. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I heard something today from Colin Cowherd and it makes total sense.

    Russell Wilson is an outlier. The way he ad libs broken plays, evades pressure, leads a team, he is an outlier kind of player.

    People need to stop trying to draft the next 5 ft 11 Russell Wilson because their aren't any. Quit trying to make Ryan Tannehill Russell Wilson and Aaron Rogers. It would be equally silly for me to make him the next Dan Marino. Aaron Rogers sat and watched the greatest improv QB in the history of the game for 3 years. Russell Wilson is this generations Fran Tarkenton. Why not watch what OUR QB has done well this season, because you know what dammit, he's done alot of good things. Quit wishing he was another player on another team.

    Ryan obviously makes other teams game plan to stop him, because well you can watch the game and see that. Does he need to improve in areas? Of course he does. But I'll tell you this. Look at Tannehill's numbers after the first 5 games of the season when he was learning the offense.

    You extrapolate his numbers after the first five.. His YPA goes from like 5 something to 7.42. His numbers after the first 5 games put him well, well within the top 10 QBs in this league.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes I think tannehills faults are somewhat attributed to lazors unwillingness to streess the importance of the dual threat game, I've been consistent in blaming both for underutilizing this qbs skill set...Ive argued all year with folks telling me to let him be a pocket passer, while absolutely disregarding the mans strengths, and how to win games using those strengths..I continually stated that if we keep this kid in this pocket with this line, if he doesn't start taking some things into his own hands were going to be home for the playoffs..from the raven game on, no matter what anyone says, he was averaging 2 and a half carries, 1 rollout and no qb runs without design...lost 3 of four and missed the playoffs, but our qb is healthy and played from th pocket just like most called for...well, hope your happy man.
     
  23. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    And the difference there is that Wilson accounted for 98 of his team's points (25%), whereas Tannehill accounted for 71 of his team's (18%). Had Tannehill played like Wilson in that regard, the Dolphins would've scored 415 points on the season and averaged 26 per game instead of 24. That could've conceivably won at least some of the games that were lost by a small margin (Green Bay, Denver, Detroit) and put the team into the playoffs, perhaps. And that's with all else being equal (no improvement in the Dolphins' defense, running game, etc.). Really what you're seeing there in that comparison between the Dolphins' and the Seahawks' offenses is how Tannehill benefitted more than Wilson from his surrounding cast on offense. In other words, Wilson made more of an individual contribution to his offense than did Tannehill, despite that their offenses produced similar point totals. If anything, Seahawks fans should be lamenting the losses of players like Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, and Percy Harvin, even more than Dolphins fans should be clamoring for help for Ryan Tannehill.
     
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  24. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    But this season when they've had more comparable OCs and more similar systems they're pretty close despite Tannehill's OL falling to pieces. When they're OLs were also similar (neither OL was ever good, but Tannehill's was a dumpster fire after Albert got hurt), Tannehill was on pace to be one of the top 5 QBs in the league.
     
  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    get your story right alex before you act like that, I didn't go there, Rafs said what he said and I responded.

    wilson will do whats necessary to win the stinking game, and when you have garbage as wideouts, online and tightends its the smart move..
     
  26. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    And that is probably the most absurd post I've seen you make DJ. Because us missing the playoffs had nothing to do with our defense falling apart.

    We get you are infatuated with Russell Wilson. 17 is not nor ever will be Russell Wilson.
     
  27. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Seattle doesn't need their QB to do a whole lot. They run 30-35 times every week, play action is a beast, they're D allows 14-15 ppg. It's a cozy job for any QB. Tannehill otoh...
     
  28. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Why can't you discuss the other aspects of his game? It's all about running. Fine we get what your saying there. But if your the kind of evaluator I think you are then I damned well know your capable of breaking down the other aspects of his game.
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    if you wanna protect your little pocket passer while your watching other teams play in december be my guest, when I know that a qb is not being used correctly, and know that he's unaware of an important element of the game then its a problem, especilaly when your watching other teams play..

    hes accurate in the mid range to short game, he's tough, he will stare down the barrel and throw the football, he's durable....happy
     
  30. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well I guess I over estimated your ability to objectively evaluate a QB.
     
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    and you know how I have played out this evaluation, I've been adamant as to what he does well, but I've been waiting to see what i THINK IS AN IMPERATIVE TRAIT TO WINNING UNDER PLAYOFF CONDITIONS..been three years, don't see it..I'm willing to give him his fourth and do whatever it takes to protect him and give him two more good weapons.
     
  32. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    dj you act like if 17 was the second coming of Brett Favre our run defense would NOT have giving up the yards they did and our defense would NOT have given up 32 points a game over the last 6 games. That is why we are not in the playoffs. Not because of Ryan Tannehill
     
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  33. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    The other aspect os his game is hes a very average quarterback in the pocket. Dj has already made that clear and thats pretty clear to me as well.

    Any quarterback that is truly in control would have the balls to waive any plays they know arent winning plays and create..
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    imsorry it doesn't bother you that neither he or his coordinator is exploiting his skill set correctly, all the while watching other teams play in december...

    guess what, that means at this point and time you have nothing to hang your hat on, I've been telling you all year and last year, and the year before that if the skillet is not used correctly were not going to the playoffs.
     
  35. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Him running was never going to happen under Sherman, come on bro I know you know that. This is the first season Tannehill was really part of our running attack. But his job first and foremost was to learn this offense, and that means learning to stay in the pocket and go through the progressions of a timing based passing attack. I know what 17 can do with his legs. We all do. It's the passing and directing and offense where we need to know about. Hell he could be like any of the other dozen running QBs who could make plays with their legs, yet amounted to **** in this league. There's a long list of them.. Remember Akili Smith? Pat White? Why is it so hard to believe they are developing Tannehill to be a long term answer at QB. Perfect the pocket passing aspect of the game, then add in what already comes natural to you.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've told him and everyone that a ,billion times, if your tom brady then fine design everything from the pocket, but he aint so you better do everything possible to win the fu*&in game..and if thats running, screaming at him to take off to threaten a defense early or booting his *** all game then so be it, don't give me the excuse, ''well, it cuts off half the field, or,'' I don't want my qb running the football'', or '' taking off will inhibit his pocket development'', or ''the read option is a fad'', or, ''he's gonna get hurt''...thats all pu%%y talk

    im sick and tired of babying a 27 year old going into his fourth year athletic qb who stands static in the pocket at all costs, while were missing playoffs every year..

    its time to exhaust the qbs skill set..unless of course you like doing what it is your doing right now.
     
  37. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well sorry but the data does not back up your argument.
     
  38. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    If we had Seattle's defense, are we in the playoffs this season?
     
  39. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Interesting info...

    Packers: Rodgers
    2008: 34
    2009: 50
    2010: 31
    2011: 36
    2012: 51
    2013: 38 - 21 Rodgers, Flynn: 17
    2014: 28

    2012-2014: 117 (100 Rodgers)


    Dolphins:
    2009: 26 Henne
    2010: 30 Henne
    2011: 47 - 11 Henne (4 games), 36 Moore (13 games)
    2012: 37 - 35 Tannehill, 2 Moore
    2013: 58 Tannehill
    2014: 46 Tannehill

    2012-2014: 141 (139 Tannehill)

    Didn't realize that Moore had been sacked in 13 games as much as Tannehill had in 16 in 2012.

    Rodgers was sacked 100 times to Tannehill's 139 during the same time frame of 2012 to 2014.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    where are all the folks who talk about how important ypa is? he's 28th in the league...what about 4th quarter qbr? he's about at 80 there...both important stats are near the worst in football.
     
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