Lessons from the current NFL best deep ball thrower.

Again, why is it that this is only a problem Tannehill has with Mike Wallace, and why is it that virtually every deep target of note in the league is also guys capable of catching balls not entirely on target?

And why are you inventing a concept to defend Mike Wallace?

Mike Wallace was number one at what?

 

Roethlisberger has extraordinary deep accuracy to a degree that's the overwhelming bulk of quarterbacks in the league can't match.

Even that wasn't enough- In 2012 without Bruce Arians he turned in virtually the exact same performance Tannehill got in 2013.

 

I've never said he doesn't need to improve. I've said his deep ball to Wallace hasn't been good, but I'm reluctant to put all the blame on Tannehill, since he's had good success to everyone not named Wallace, and Wallace has a host of issues that affect the quarterback when throwing to him.

You can't seem to admit that Wallace is part of the problem.

 

I love how a complaint is that Tannehill overthrows Wallace...I thought it wasn't possible to overthrow him? LOL

Also, I watch a bunch of games of other teams, and I routinely see receivers of guys like Luck, Romo, Brady, etc, slowing up on deep balls that are "underthrown." It is quite common.

 

Wallace doesn't have an amazing catch radius, just an average one. If his catch radius was that small, he wouldn't have caught ANY deep passes last year by Tannehill. Yes Tanny's passes were that bad. Okay, maybe one or two.

Quick, someone cue up all the film of Tanny dropping it on a dime, with Wallace neither having to slow down nor reach out for a ball.

I'll wait right here. And don't be cheating with some Roethlisberger clips!

Very fast guy, with average catch radius, running go routes with not the most accurate deep passer = lots of missed passes. It is what it is.

To say it's Wallace's fault when we've seen him get it done with another QB is kind of foolish. If he got it done with Big Ben, even if it was under Arians system, sort of points the finger at Tanny as the missing piece in this equation.

It's really neither Wallace or Tanny's fault. Wallace can get it done, with a better QB. Tanney never pleaded for a super fast deep threat. Whoever was involved with signing Wallace without examining whether their QB could drive that Ferrari is the person(s) at fault here.

As for Tanny, to me, it's his anticipation. He's young, so it's understandable. Last year, he wanted to be sure Wallace was going to be open before he hucked it. Wallace is so fast he's too far down the field already. Ben is not only accurate but he knew ahead of time whether Wallace was going to be open and chucked it.

 

i don't think you should be throwing to a spot when throwing deep..need to see the target, set your platform quickly, measure it and and let it go.

 

Throwing deep to Mike Wallace, you're definitely throwing to a spot, it may not be a predetermined spot, but it's a spot nonetheless. Tannehill has to pick a spot where he thinks Wallace will be...but like when Wallace is running up a sideline, there's almost no margin for error. I still can't fathom why we didn't try to get Wallace open on deep post patterns, where it would seem to be easier for Wallace to track the ball and get in position to make a his high percentage body catch, instead of forcing Tannehill to drop it pinpoint accurate right over top of Wallace, forcing Wallace to catch using his hands, which he has shown to not be highly skilled at. Those plays didn't work to the strengths of either player, and I fault the coaches for that.

 

Wait a minute.....I thought you never said this??????????????

 

Ryan hasn't had consistent success with his deep ball with ANYONE, people routinely bring up the "20 yards in the air" stat which isn't the type of throws we are talking about or you see him miss in the video.

 

Here we go.

I've been clear on my stance with Wallace, if it's too complicated for you to understand then simply put me on ignore. This isn't the POFO where you are the village dunce for trying to spin everyone's words into what you want them to be.

Now you are going to claim I said all he needs to be is fast, which are two totally different things.

 

If he IS throwing to a spot than that's another one of his problems....put some air under it and let your playmaker get it.

 

Not Wallace's strength by any means. And I don't think I would rate his catch radius as average. Compared to other top receivers, other deep threats I believe his catch radius would be below average.

 

So why doesn't Tannehill have this problem with other targets, and why did Wallace have this problem in '12?

 

It is a strength, he did it well in Pittsburgh. He had no problem running under Bens throws, he'll he even started fighting for the ball in Miami. He isn't going to Calvin Johnson teams to death but he has put himself in position to make big plays....just hasn't gotten a catchable pass very often.

 

He does if you are talking about throws you see in the video. 2015, let's make this the year of being honest with ourselves and not trying to skew stats.

 

I just wish, you'd admit that as far as you're concerned all Wallace has to do is get past the DBs. That's been your stance since last year and then when challenged on it, you deflect, insult, cry, soil your diapers, get indignant, circumvent, spin, fill your diapers a second time, etc.

What I can't figure out is why you do that? Its either one or a combination of, you recognize its a stupid stance, you like to argue or its your intense dislike of me.

 

Only stupid people hold grudges, I have no dislike for you at all believe it or not. You just have a habit of twisting words and putting sentences in people's mouth.

 

Again, factually no.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/catch-radius-bigger-better

He's consistently the worst of the studied receivers.

 

One thing I will surely do in light of this week's data is to redo the 2011-12 data, because we did not have access to all the angles (All-22) we have for 2013. Maybe some of those Mike Wallace chest catches were actually thrown wide or at eye-level. I don't expect huge changes, but that needs to be done. This is time-consuming work, but it will be valuable if perfected.

 

Where are those people that said we signed a Top 10 receiver 2 years ago and justified his contract? Sad part is, that group and the Greg Jenning's group (I was in Jenning's) would have both been wrong. The right answer is stay away from free agent receivers.

 

If we're talking about this year alone, I would say that Tannehill has been fine on the deep balls. A couple problems:

1. Very few deep balls attempted per game
2. Oline couldn't block long enough to allow routes to develop downfield, or allow Tannehill to really step into throws
3. Receivers dropping very nice deep balls
4. Receivers not staying in bounds on deep balls

I also don't know why you are so against this 20+ yard stat. I guess it's fine that you don't like it, but that's how deep balls are defined and tracked. Balls traveling 40-50 yards in the air are a crapshoot, and are incredibly low percentage plays. Rodgers, the best this year, has what, 15 of them? I mean, we are talking about the best QB in the league, with a good offense around him. I don't see Rodgers being smashed after throwing a ball to a receiver running a short route in under 3 seconds, which is what I routinely see when Tannehill throws a ball.

 

I like Wallace, do not see him as the problem. If I were him I would want deep passes thrown to me.

 

Because the 20 yard measure isn't what we are seeing in that video. Todd put together a nice reference point for everyone if you would like to find it.

Either way, Ryan struggles with the deep ball in general...hope he gets it fixed

 

He was still just as awful in 2013 when they did have the footage, and he was specifically scrutinized for a feature vs. Antonio Brown. A review suddenly isn't going to make him average.

 

Aaaaand, you literally addressed nothing that I said, merely repeated that same stuff that has been said since his first day on the Dolphins field. Someone else, who you argued with, pointed out that Tannehill was much more successful downfield with Hartline. That thread was somehow twisted into "Hartline is better than Wallace, derp derp derp." This season, Tannehill's deep ball hasn't been bad. There are so many factors into throwing a ball 40-50 yards downfield.

 

It was twisted because that poster said Hartline was better. Deep derp derp

 

I think some of you forgot that Sage the rage Rosenfels has the longest ball thrown in that Cleveland game after our other qbs went down with injuries. he threw for 60 - 80 yards to Chris "the wizard of catches " Chambers . and that was the best pass we've had since you know who was here.

 

Maybe I missed that post by him...I remember him saying over and over and over that it had nothing to do with WHO was better, but simply that Wallace was not a good fit deep for Tannehill. I remember certain people trying to twist that in to "Hartline is better than Wallace?? ROLFLMAODERPDERPDERP

 

That's thegreat thing about message boards, you can always go back and read things like that.

 

Again, it's more nuanced than that, but at this point explaining that would be like putting 10,000 volts into a dead cat and expecting it to hop up alive.

So go hog wild, run with that.

 

Finally sir, we are in agreement.

 

Which other targets are running go routes and Tannehill trying to hit them 40 yards down the field? Or are you trying to imply a 21 hitch route is the same as a go route ran up the sideline by one of the fastest guys in the league? I don't think you would try to stay that, so what other WRs are running the routes Wallace runs?

I don't even need to point out hitting a speedy Wallace in stride is much harder than say, Damian Williams or Hartline.

EVERYONE had a problem in 2012, not just Wallace. Big Ben called Haley out and publicly beefed with him. Antonio Brown went from 16 ypc down to 12. Ben lost a yard off his ypa for two years.

Let's not act like it was only Wallace who had a hard time adjusting to Haley's offense. Wallace is not a top 5 WR by any means, but he's not nearly as bad as some want to claim. You said it yourself, Ben is one of the most accurate deep deep ball throwers in the league. Yeah, we know. So pointing out Tanny isn't as good as Ben shouldn't necessitate a rabid Tanny defense.

We know Wallace can be hit in stride repeatedly and have a great season. We know Tanny has NEVER shown that ability. We know the offensive coordinator stripped it from the offense for the most part and said he wasn't good at it. What more do we need to know? Lazor is surprisingly blunt and he didn't call out Wallace, he called out Tanny.

 

As far as I can tell, Tannephins has put more actual work into collecting stats and putting quantitative information up for discussion than anyone else on this forum over the last month.

Twist his words around if you want...but he's not the one who's going to look lazy and self-righteous.

Just my perspective.

 

Agree.

And instead of referencing Rodgers list, it's become a "Ryan is a good deep ball thrower, just not to Wallace because Mike isn't very good at deep balls"

That's a damn good list and naturally we have maybe 3 out of 100 posts that brings up the point.

 

Agreed, he and Todd really go the extra mile in presenting their points. But it is ignored by the people who don't want to be objective about it.

 

Well, the "rabid" response came when people with an agenda would cite Wallace's numbers with Rapistberger, and then pretend that because Tannehill isn't doing that, then he must be trash.

 

I've seen plenty of Todd's posts ignored by one group when they were presenting Tannehill in a good light. And I think the Wallace hate is a little overblown by people. Most of what I recall seeing is that people think that Wallace is vastly overpaid for what he brings to the table.

 

It seems to me Tannehill doesn't put enough weight on his back leg and dip his right should enough. Like Rodgers says in that article, that's not letting him get enough arc on the throw, and it's not letting him use his lower body to build enough power behind the throw. That's making him use more of his arm and wrist to provide the power, and when you do that it makes it harder for your muscles to be precise, thus lack of accuracy. He seems to struggle with his lower body on all types of throws. It's like he trusts his pure arm strength so much that he often doesn't bother with using his lower body. He gets away with it on a lot of throws. But the margin for error is obviously smaller the longer you're throwing.

 

Wallace doesn't produce on "normal" deep routes either, so I'm not really sure why the distinction matters.

He had 31 deep targets in 2012, the most in his Pittsburgh career.

Yet, who is going to be here next year?