However, with that logic... it is Philbin's fault for not putting in the effort to work with the player, and seeing the potential in him if they could work with him through his immaturity issues. It happens alot. Part of being a NFL head coach, is babysitting these KIDS when they leave college and run into a big chunk of cash and fame etc, etc. as an NFL player. All it would have taken was probably a few meetings, or a fine, or a suspension come season time. Not just... ahhh... Indy want's that immature really talented corner we have?? ship him on outta here! I mean at what point to we look at this scenario and point the finger at the head coach, and why can't we? That's part of his job. Making sure guys buy into his system, working with them to get better as players, as professionals, and as people. Just because the kid wasn't takign it as seriously as he should have, doesn't mean you should just trade him off. They should have been able to realize the potential that was there, and work with him to help get him to realize that potential and become the player he is now. That's what good coaching staffs to with young players.
That's not true at all. He was well known for coming into camp every year extremely out of shape. He also often showed up late and at least one time, drunk. While people think of him as a great player when he was here, reality is he wasn't. He was an inconsistent player with great talent. Fans saw the great tackles but forgot the missed tackles. He actually missed more tackles than Sean Smith whom many considered a poor tackler. Davis also missed a ton of plays and struggled with knowing his assignments. So he made great plays, but also missed a ton as well. On balance, the Davis we had here was an average player and a horrid employee who flashed great potential. He was the poster boy for the player that needed a wake up call. Could a better coach have turned him around here? Maybe, but it was far from a sure thing. I wouldn't even call it a likely thing even with a better coach.
He was irked by Dansby in the Joe Philbin way, make no doubt about it. And I never included the leadership council that's you and your strawman again. Long left with money on the table there in Miami. That's a different situation. Bush was a mistake but in the sense that Philbin thought we would be better off. The next year proved him wrong. He's been wrong a few times. http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Dansby-Dolphins-Should-Have-Backed-Johnson-165993286.html
The talent was worth a shot. Sean Taylor turned it around. His own brother in San Francisco. You don't need to trade a player to send a message or wake up call. A nice benching to the 5th string would send messages. As you can see now, he was an excellent talent.
I fully agree that Philbin was the reason that most of these players were jettisoned and that it was generally a mistake on his part. But I don't believe that the trading of Davis should be faulted as he was just a really poor employee here.
Everybody always saw he had excellent talent, but that's not enough. There are far more players with great talent that never realize that talent than the few who do. IMO the odds were significantly against Davis developing here without the wake up call and a new environment.
And there is also the concern that if you tolerate that sort of behavior as a new, first-time head coach, what kind of message are you sending the rest of your players? That anything goes? Sometimes the best move all the way around is to move on, and hopefully the player can learn from it and do better, while the team gets the message that greater dedication to one's craft is part of what the new team culture is going to be based on.
He had actually already been benched during that preseason. He was no longer a first-string corner for the Dolphins at the time he was traded.
There was no proof. There was no evidence. The people you are calling reporters are not reporters. They are sports editorialists. They get paid to speculate not report. That's not my own opinion.
Again, PHILBIN DID NOT TRADE VONTAE. So saying he should have worked with him means nothing. He is not the one that traded him away. He didn't tell Ireland to instigate the trade with the Colts.
That's right I forgot that. The idea that a demotion would have functioned as a wake-up had already been proven wrong.
Huh? Prove the Dansby thing and prove that he was irked enough that he forced Ireland to get rid of him some how. The prove how in the hairy hell he could force Ireland to get rid of them in the same offseason he couldn't convince Ireland to get rid of Cogs and replace Martin. The flipside of what you're saying is that the players on the team have never irked Philbin else he'd have dumped them. Forget you're arguing with me for second, and think this through. .
It's not a case of editorializing when they claim they have multiple sources they heard it from. Again, I don't really care if you think they are making it up or just lying for clicks.
And at that point you were looking at a 2nd-round pick (and a later pick) in exchange for a non-starter, for whom a recent benching didn't serve as a wake-up call. Not all trades look 100% great in hindsight, folks. However, that doesn't mean they were ill-advised. If in let's say 75 of 100 similar such trades the 2nd-round pick proves to be of more value than the player traded, isn't the trade the better move to make? I suspect that trading any non-starter for a 2nd-round pick is going to be the wiser move the vast majority of the time. You don't refrain from making those moves because of the minority that later appear questionable.
Obviously if Philbin wants to replace someone there has to be someone that wants to take them, and you have to think about what you are replacing them with. It's fairly common sense. Anyway, it's ok if we disagree on whether it's Philbin's doing or not. Ireland could have put his foot down as well so it's not like he didn't have culpability.
Not saying you didn't read those stories, but links please. All I remember reading, is offhand things like "Why did Philbin get rid of VD?" and stuff like that...not....we were told by so-so source that Philbin forced Ireland to get rid of Davis." From there, it will need to be explained to me, how Philbin then orchestrated the Colts to call Ireland and not the other way around.
If you have access to the Joe Rose show they just had one of the beat reporters on who basically said that getting rid of those players (Dansby, Marshall, Bush, Davis, etc.) was Philbin's call. That was consistent with what I had heard at the time. Ireland was trying to make things work with Philbin and so he acquiesced to what Philbin wanted. I don't know if that constitutes "proof" for you, but it has been my understanding of the way things happened.
If it is the truth, then so be it. But we haven't had any real confirmation before now that I'm aware of. I prefer to have evidence before I want a member of this team gone. I wanted it with Ireland. I want it with Philbin.
I don't think that Philbins handling of the leadership council is going to be the issue that shows him to be a good or bad coach above what he's accomplished and put out there already, but accuracy is never a bad thing.
Getting a 2nd round pick is great but getting a 2nd when the draft already happened is substantially less value.
In the real world you rarely get that. We never had official confirmation of which draft picks Ireland was responsible for and which Parcells made and probably never will. Heck, even if Parcells or Ireland wrote some tell-all book 20 years from now that confirmation would still just reflect one sides opinion of what actually happened which may or may not be the truth. We'll probably never really know what happened with Wallace and the benching/quitting this last game.
I'm not asking for absolute proof. I'm asking for any proof. Up until the Joe Rose thing, the only evidence there was, was of Philbin NOT getting rid of Vontae.
Ive been talking up Vontae all season long in the betting thread and other threads. he's a great player, top 3 cornerback in the NFL. Hes all over the damn field, hits like a truck. Only CB better than him is Sherman. My fave CB in the NFL.
IIRC, Ireland said something on Hard Knocks about there being an offer on the table from Indy and that he then he sat down with Philbin and they both agreed to accept the trade. So I don't think Philbin got rid of Vontae, per se, but he did sign off on it.
Ireland specially said that Vontae was not part of their long term plan. Which says to me that Philbin did not want him on the team.
Found the video: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...9189/Hard-Knocks-Vontae-Davis-traded-to-Colts The defensive coaches all sat down together before the trade and talked about it... Philbin said he "liked the kid" but didn't think he would ever get him to play like they wanted him to... Ireland then got the Colts to offer up a 2nd and conditional 6th and talked to Philbin about it and they both agreed on the trade.
Pretty sure Philbin at some point went to Coyle and asked for his opinion of Vontae. Remember Philbin cant coach he cant possibly know if Vontae will be good or not. coyle probably told Philbin talent like Vontae is expendable and gave him the thumbs up. So ill blame Coyle, Dont get me wrong Philbin is a bum and should not be here but he cant evaluate or develop talent. my speculation is this was Coyle's call. Sad part is even Sean Smith is a top 10 CB, meanwhile we are thinking about drafting another CB. Lol... We just keep creating holes.
My take on that whole thing was that the Colts made the offer, which Ireland hadn't pursued, expected or barely responded to at first. (I think at that point Davis had been demoted so that's probably why the Colts inquired). Then he tells Philbin about the offer and Philbin basically says, he doubts Davis will ever be good enough here. So then Ireland works on getting the compensation up, but Philbin's earlier comment sealed the deal assuming they could get the compensation high enough.
Buck stops at Philbin. Ireland really hit it out of the park in the 2009 draft. Especially since that is probably going to go down as the worst draft class in the history of the NFL. I was sad when I saw how much money the Chiefs got Smith for. To be honest I understand very little of the moves that have been made since Philbin has taken over. Part of the reason I think he is a bad coach.
I also thought Philbin was strangely indecisive the last time they talked in the video...Ireland said the Colts offered a conditional sixth, and Philbin just paused and asked "What do you think?", then Ireland said to pull the trigger. The reason I found that weird was because one of the reasons Ireland was fired was that he was supposedly not working well with Philbin... but in this case, Philbin looked like he had no idea what he wanted, and actually needed help from Ireland in making the decision. Don't know, just found it odd...
I never said he traded Vontae.. Surely his opinion was asked. we saw that on Hard Knocks. So... as I said... the kid clearly had potential and the ability. Everyone knew that. So he had maturity issues. As a head coach though... why is he not sitting there saying.. I dont know Jeff. This kid has alot of talent. Let's work with him on his issues and lets tap into that potential he has. Why just part ways with him? To me, that's where we can point the finger at Philbin in this. You shouldn't be cutting ties with someone like that, without trying to work with him, without coaching him up. That's all I'm saying... That's the point I was making, that you overlooked..
It seemed like he was asking Ireland if he thought that was sufficient compensation. That would have followed from their earlier conversation where Ireland said he wanted more compensation. As for the not working together part, the reports were that Ireland wanted Philbin to play the players he'd drafted and that Philbin didn't trust them b/c he never trusts the new players. That was the source of the disagreement. I actually see that as a fault of Philbin's. He's loyal to a fault even when the person is not performing (as long as the guy doesn't talk back and works hard). We saw that with Sherman and Thomas at RT and the improvement when the injury forced Fox in. (Fox wasn't good but he was better than the train wreck Thomas was). Same with Wheeler and Jenkins.
There's problems with what you're saying. - They probably would have worked with him, if Indy hadn't approached them for a trade. Its ok to trade players and doing so is not an indictment of the coach. - Vontae was demoted at the time. He was demoted not because Philbin is an idiot, but because Davis was doing too much wrong. - We need to stop acting like there's a million ways to reach and improve every player out there. There's not always (or even normally) some magic speech or drill or action that can change the course of a person's focus. If it were that easy there'd be no drug abuse, suicides, depression, etc. There are players Shula couldn't reach, doesn't mean he sucks or didn't try. If its plausible that Philbin is just incapable of working with anyone who doesn't capitulate lock step, then its just as likely that Vontae's wake up call could ONLY come by being traded (on TV no less). Why is that so ridiculous to believe?
Why is it so ridiculous to believe the other way around? I mean really, you're just speculating the same way I just did. None of us know. What we do know though, the kid had/has tons of talent. IIRC, that was Philbin's first year here. So... work with the guy. Make him understand what it means to be a pro. Maybe those conversations happened prior to Hard Knocks and training camp, and maybe nothign got better. Sure... However, I still think it's a more than fair point to make about the head coach of the football team. He may not have pulled all the strings on a trade, but he was still asked of his opinion. Rather than working with him to help him reach his potential, he apparently was ok with moving on from Vontae. We will never know what would have happened if VD stayed here, that's for sure. I would just prefer my head coach to... coach a player. Help him improve on and off the field before we move on from him. If VD was out beating women and robbing stores, etc, etc. Then absolutely, it's not worth the headache. By all accounts though what we had here was a kid struggling to be a pro and act like a pro because... well... he was a kid, with no real leadership. Easy to say in hindsight, I know. I don't think the point isn't valid though.
So... because Indy contacted us... we just drop everything, say **** it, and agree to the trade, rather than keeping a player loaded with talent and potential? That doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure why you keep going back to the trade. I don't give a rat's *** who contacted who on the trade. The fact of the matter is, we had the choice of accepting the trade, or keeping the player and working on his issues to make him the player we wanted, and needed him to be. If the coaches were consulted by the GM, which we know they were. Then the big question to me, is why did we choose to abandon the talent rather than work with a player with maturity issues? I get it, it may not have worked, but now we're never going to know. Although, the fact he's now playing up to his potential with a new team (and surroundings, sure) kind of proves the fact that the kid's attitude could be changed. Whether it was the trade that prompted Vontae to change and get focused, or whether it was a coaching staff and team willing to work with him towards that change, we won't know. I don't think it's a stretch to think a coaching staff can have that kind of impact on a guy though.
He doesn't want to coach the players. He wants to coach the team. He hopes the players shut up, buy his system and just do what they're told.
no. What it says is that we weren't actively trying to get rid of him. That means Philbin didn't "give up" on him. If he had, we'd have been the ones to contact teams about trade. What we are left with then, is that a trade was offered for a player who did enough wrong to get benched and for all we know the player was only ever going to reach his potential by hitting whatever he considered rock bottom. Unless you can list for me, all the different speeches, drills, whatever that Philbin could have done with Vontae that would have got him to care more and then prove Philbin did none of those, I"m not sure what leg you have to stand on.
The important lesson is that you don't give up on first round 24y/o three-year starters with major talent and athletic ability...just because he was an immature employee. The important lesson that follows is that our coaching staff blows.
