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Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MAFishFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Da 'Fins likes this.
  2. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure the Sports Science segment contained relevant information. The "scientist" measured his own grip in millimeters, called himself an average guy, and said pro football players could apply 1.5% more force than he can. What does that mean in terms of a pro football player's ability to hold onto a deflated ball in the cold and rain? I don't know, because he moved on to discuss how quickly a deflated ball might travel, even though I have not seen that fact disputed anywhere. Mark Brunell did say he could throw a deflated ball farther, though his answer seemed to me to be about confidence and control rather than physics, which, again, were never questioned by anyone that I can see.

    Cliff's notes, for those busy thinking about BDSM and how it relates to football fans: The entire segment consisted of his measuring something that I guess was supposed to prove some point, but I'm not sure what, because he then moved on to talk about something that no one disputed. He concluded by saying the rain had a bigger impact on the game than the inflation of the ball. Great segment.
     
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  3. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Correction, pro football players measured at 1.5% more grip. So NE players had about 1.5% more grip. 1.5% more grip doesn't explain the discrepancy in the fumbling data.
     
  4. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Do you trust your own hands? Do you have an NFL regulation football? A tire pump? A pressure gauge? It's easier to handle a football when it's underinflated. That's not something I need to have proven or disproven by somebody else.

    Still, this stuff is a sideshow to the main point.

    The main point here is this, it's black and white and it's quantifiable: the NFL had a rule in place and the Patriots broke that rule because they believed it gave them some kind of advantage.
     
  5. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    The fact is, most on this board attribute New England's success to cheating because of how and where you were raised.

    If your dad was a diehard Patriot fan and you grew up in Boston - you would be arguing just the opposite.

    Yeah, the Pats cheated on the spygate - but even that was minimal. It was not the reason they won the SB, imo. I suspect they'd have won regardless.

    This football issue? I think it's much-a-do about nothing, imo, and is fostered by the past and by fans who are biased-against. I don't like the Pats as a team but I think footballs change significantly through weather and other circumstances. And I suspect no one doctored anything. I could be wrong but I just don't think there is anything significant going on here.

    What will be interesting to see is how much impact this has on the Pats in the SB. I have a feeling that this will have a negative impact and favors Seattle.
     
  6. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn't see any experiments where they were trying to dislodge a football from somebody's grip; I saw an experiment where a guy tried to indent a football and then he told me that pro football players could apply 1.5% more force to the ball.* To me, that's all about one person actually indenting a football, and that same person telling me something theoretical about someone else indenting a football.

    *He didn't say 1.5% more grip, he said pros can apply "1.5% more force to the ball." The graphic on the screen at 0:43, when he is saying this, says "Grip Force," but I have to assume this means that pro football players can indent a football a little more? I don't know, because it wasn't said. He didn't say "1.5 more grip," but thanks for the correction. Who doesn't love a side of pedantry with a plate full of condescension? Count me in! Keep it coming.
     
  7. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Depends what sideline you`re on. Its a scientific fact that outdoor temperatures fluctuate greatly from one sideline to another.
     
  8. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Come on... I feel like I'm in the health and fitness forum. Here's multiple studies, from highly regarded studies, peer-reviewed, and posted in credible publications that prove carbs don't make you fat or any harder for you to lose weight.... The next thing I read, "no, it's not true, carbs make you fat... duh"

    Science is science... The laws of physics are the laws of physics. We abide by these rules because we have no other choice. You can't just say, "my personal belief, from my point of view, my experience..." trumps science because it goes against whatever beliefs you may have. Well, you can... But then any rational person would just tune out because it's a fools errand to continue the conversation.

    Right now, we know a little about the physics involved in a football used by the NE Patriots. The data we have available says an extra 1.5% grip was measured for pro football players throwing and catching the ball. How does 1.5% grip correlate to the massive differential in NE's fumbling statistics?

    If this were a different team, I don't think as many people would buy the arguments presented. This is the same MB that had a "Tom Brady and NE Patriots are DONE!!!" threads after a rough start. They're now in the ****ing SB... And like everyone else, I hope they get **** on. I hope Seattle dolls out the Peyton Manning treatment next Sunday. I hope BB throws another post game tantrum and gets ripped to shreds by the media (again). I want the worse for NE. But my dislike for them doesn't mean I'm going to ignore relevant information. If new data comes out that supports the theory that much more grip is possible and it correlates with the fumbling data, I'm completely open minded. I'd love another reason to hate NE. I'll jump on board with you all. NE retained a massive advantage and are once again proven cheaters post spy gate. Because in the end, I'm a supporter of facts. Not shoddy evidence from those who hate NE, like all of us.
     
  9. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not taking this argument as personally as some, so keep that in mind here. I have a very difficult time believing that 11 of 12 Patriots' balls had a problem while 12 of 12 Colts' balls were fine in the same elements. Do you think the Colts overinflated their footballs so they'd remain legal in the weather?

    Also, I thought Belichick's analogy of the tire pressure was way off. It would be as if my wife and I had separate 3 car garages, and over a 2 hour period in the winter somehow my cars get 11 underinflated tires and her tires are all fine. If that hypothetical were to happen, I wouldn't be blaming the weather.
     
  10. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/23/p...-deflate-gate-accusations-with-science-video/

     
  11. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If that experiment measured grip in any meaningful way, you must have access to data that isn't in the video. Do you?
     
  12. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  13. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    No. I thought it was pretty straight forward. Throwing and/or catching the ball that was under inflated created 1.5% extra force grip.
     
  14. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There isn't any evidence remaining, so how do we know?
     
  15. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    [​IMG]

    You sound mad...

    [​IMG]
     
  16. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So you believe in facts and science, but you think that one measurement is enough, once that measurement tells you what you supposed going into the experiment?
     
  17. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I respect Da Fins and was just pointing out that I wasn't trying to have some kind of personal argument with him. I would expect someone with your massive intellect to get that, but I guess you don't know what it's like to have a respectful conversation with someone who disagrees with you.
     
  18. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    No. I said I'm open minded if anyone has more relevant numbers. And I highly doubt they took one measurement. It's a TV clip...
     
  19. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're using it as if it's a lot more than a TV clip. Maybe it proves some things; maybe it doesn't. In some minds, it becomes solid, scientific fact. To others, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense to me, because they didn't tell me enough about the experiment. They told you everything you wanted, apparently. Great.
     
  20. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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  21. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    We've been talking about the physical impact that an under inflated ball has in the game in this thread. Sports Science has a pretty good reputation. They made an effort to measure something that I don't think anyone else has at the moment. It's a good place to start. It has relevance to the thread. Someone else posted a link to a video that demonstrated a group of people not being able to tell the difference between a ball with normal PSI or low PSI. I find that supporting, but not factual. Again, if anyone else has better numbers, or more in depth I'm interested. I already told you, I'm open minded on the subject. As of now, I don't think there's anything to support the idea that the Patriots used under inflated balls as a specific tactic. They've gotten away with it for almost 8 years and no one said ANYTHING? Regardless of that issue, I don't see how under inflated balls could give NE a massive advantage that some claim they've gotten.

    You've got some weird issue with me and it's getting old going in circles. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me. It's OK. Moving on.
     
  22. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    [​IMG]
     
  23. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have a weird issue with you? You're being insulting toward everyone who disagrees with you. Moreover, you're acting like some champion of facts and science here while claiming the SS segment deals with things it doesn't deal with (i.e. accuracy). Maybe the pictures of the guy throwing the ball at the target made you think it did?

    I take issue with stuff like this when the person doing it is railing on other people for their biases. Maybe that's a problem unique to me. So be it.

    It's not personal for me, though, because I could agree with you in another thread on another day and I'll let you know it.
     
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  24. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IDGAF whether it actually helped them any more than IGAF that the guy commiting DUI didn't run anybody over, the punishment should be based on breaking the rules/law, not its result....
     
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  25. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    Born in CT now live in Mass.. They cheated...
     
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  26. bigbry

    bigbry Huge Member

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    Has ANYONE considered the balls feelings during this controversy?
     
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  27. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    the balls are probably feeling a little blue.
     
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  28. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Well, I can see that you have no clue as to what you're talking about. The information that I've provided to you is everything that you've asked for it's just that you don't know how to interpret it.

    In short, under-inflated footballs are scientifically proven to be easier to catch and grip. The facts show that it's statistically impossible for the Patriots to NATURALLY be that much better at not turning the ball over. The FACTS are the Patriots were caught using under-inflated footballs. If this is too difficult for you to understand, I'm sorry.
     
  29. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    My dad is a diehard Patriots fan and I'm from 80 miles outside of Boston in New Hampshire.

    Your analysis is incorrect. If the Patriots were found to have done anything even the slightest bit shady, you throw the book at them. They've proven that they have no qualms with cheating to win.
     
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  30. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    my dad was born and raised in new hampshire and is a die hard patriots fan and he thinks they cheated and are a shady organization. i was born and raised in new hampshire as well although its not hard to figure out they cheated i mean it really doesn't matter where you are from. of course some patriots fans will try and make excuses but talking with a number from around here you do run in some honest ones from time to time.
     
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  31. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    p1 / T1 = p2 / T2​
    Now, we can start solving this puzzle quite easily! But before we do, we also have to know the atmospheric pressure during the game, since p in this case is the absolute pressure; the pressure inside the ball plus the pressure of the atmosphere (which exerts a force on the ball as well).
    At 6pm, the atmospheric pressure at nearby Norwood Airport was 1009.5 mb (1009.5 hPa or 100950 Pa).
    Let's assume that each ball was inflated to the minimum pressure required to meet the NFL rules regarding proper inflation: 12.5 psi. We convert psi (English) to pascals (Metric), which comes out to 86,184.5 Pa and assume a room temperature of 68ºF (20ºC) which converts to 293.15 K (Kelvin, the Metric equivalent). We now have,
    (86,184.5 Pa + 100950.0 Pa) / 293.15 K = (p2 + 100950.0 Pa) / T2.​
    We're down to two variables. But we also know the temperature on the field at the start of the game was reported as 51ºF/10.6ºC (283.15 K). Plug it in...
    (86,184.5 Pa + 100950.0 Pa) / 293.15 K = (p2 + 100950.0 Pa) / 283.15 K​
    Neat! Look, we're left with a solvable equation with one variable, p2, which is the pressure of the air inside the ball at game time! Let's solve this riddle...
    Isolate the lone variable:
    {[(86,184.5 Pa + 100950.0 Pa) / 293.15 K] * 283.15 K} - 100950.0 Pa = p2​
    79,800.9 Pa = p2 ---> 11.8 psi​
    83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside. This makes sense given the very first equation, which shows that a decrease in temperature would force a decrease in pressure, assuming the same volume of air in the football.
    If we use an indoor temperature of 80º, we would get a final pressure of 11.0 (10.99) psi. Using a 90º indoor temperature, we get a final pressure of 10.5 psi.
    So, according to NFL reports, either the indoor temperature when the footballs were inflated was around 90ºF, or something else happened after the footballs were inspected.
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If, if that were true, then why does the NFL have any rules on psi range in game balls??
     
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  33. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    That and Brady has already stated he prefers them under inflated...
     
  34. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    -This ad sponsored by Robert Craft.

    LMAO at this pile of ridiculous guile!!! Textbook disinformation job. This Sport ScienceFiction garbage was sooooo PAID-FOR by New England that they nonchalantly waited till the very end to mention the most important variable- THE WEATHER, PLAYING WITH A WET BALL, to which they had the unfathomable nuts to suggest the deflated ball was actually DETRIMENTAL to New England in wet conditions. :sidelol:

    If this newly-purchased-property of Bob Craft actually cared about science & discovering truth, he would've measured the effects a deflated & an inflated ball has on passing accuracy, catching ability, and carrying ability while force is being applied [as in a tackler trying to take it from you], and then he'd repeat it under wet conditions to see [strike]if[/strike] how much the effects are compounded. There'$ only ONE REA$ON to omit thi$. I won't tell you what it is though.

    I especially love the part where he wants us to believe the only thing a less inflated ball accomplishes is a reduction in velocity, thus again deceitfully suggesting a deflated ball is somehow detrimental to Brady rather than helpful. Yeah, forget the stuff about gripping it and catching it better in cold wet weather where you're immensely more concerned with touch than velocity. :sidelol:
     
  35. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    They were inflated in a sauna.

    Nothing to see here.

    Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 4
     
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  36. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    That show routinely ****s all over the scientific method.

    You're getting better "science" from "Will It Blend?"

    Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 4
     
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  37. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    I heard it was a toaster oven and then thrown in a bath of ice.... By the Refs of course..
     
  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    My issue is, no one has presented any evidence of actual tampering. I haven't seen any information of how the balls were stored during the game, for either team. Could the Colts have kept their balls heated? What was the psi of the Colts balls when tested? What was the psi of Colts at the beginning of the game? Do we know what the change was in the Colts balls?
     
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  39. The whole conversation is stupid

    they cansimply inflate a bunch of balls in a heated room then place them in a walkin cooler and measure the pressure drop. If their is enough of a dropto explain the deflation theymust accept that as the cause without any other evidence of tampering. If the drop is not large enough to explain it and they can verify the refs recorded accurate readings than its reasonable to assume theballs were tampered withwhile in the custodyof new england.

    There is no reason they can not determine if foul play involved before the super bowl other than they dont want to suspend anyone before the game. If there was even the possibilityof an innocent explanation it would of been released by now.
     
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  40. shadokp

    shadokp Active Member

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    Living up here, I have encountered several types of fans. You have the fan that is is fed up with this. They feel that they did cheat and can't understand why they did. They know the team is good even without the cheating and are sick of it. Then you have the fan who thinks the media is making a big deal out of nothing. They would have still won and even if it had happened, so what - they would have still won. The wish people would just forget about it. Then you have a small group that is sort of saying, you know what, so what if they cheated. Until they get caught, screw you. The team is going to win and win big and that is the Patriot way. They will find sneaky ways to get the advantage and this is all good. It is smart Football.

    I still think the Pats now have something to prove and they will come out fighting for the superbowl and next season. Somehow this negative for the Pats is going to turn out great for them. It usually does.
     

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