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Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MAFishFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's it cheating to not fill your balls in a freezer when playing at Lambeau in single digit weather, knowing that the ball will deflate in the super cold air? Honest question. Because judging by people's responses in here, it would be cheating.
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    its really grey, they give him the op to prep his footballs after he's makes sure his pressure is measured at a 12.5 legal limit, and the rest is a mystery, personal opinion is he does everything possible to get the balls to lose that lb of pressure without sticking a needle in it..so its still cheating, it just can't be proved.
     
  3. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    What a huge misconception. A lot of people wrongly believe that circumstantial evidence is weaker than direct evidence. That's not a legal perspective in the least. Circumstantial evidence convicts people everyday. Fingerprints are circumstantial evidence. DNA is circumstantial evidence. University of Michigan law professor Robert Precht said, "Circumstantial evidence can be, and often is much more powerful than direct evidence."
     
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  4. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    Richard Sherman thinks Goodell-Kraft relationship will protect Patriots

    "Will they be punished? Probably not" “Not as long as Robert Kraft and Goodell are still taking pictures [together] at their respective homes. I think he was just at Kraft’s house last week for the AFC Championship. Talk about conflict of interest. You know, as long as that happens, it won’t affect them at all. Nothing will.”

    Hey, hate him all you want but thank you Sherman for saying what many have been saying since day one. It just had to be said publicly. Your move rog.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/richard-sherman-thinks-goodell-kraft-relationship-will-protect-patriots/
     
  5. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The special "K" balls used nowadays are because kickers used to tamper with the balls. They'd hit them with hammers. Freeze them. Soak them in hot water etc. Those types of things were deemed to be an unfair advantage. That's a nice way of saying cheating. If he was doing any of those things then he too is cheating. Like DPlus wrote earlier, the most likely cause is a ball type person letting air out on the sly.
     
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  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Then you're thinking what I said is possible. That scenario is the only reason you'd need to see the Colts numbers you're asking for.
     
  7. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    When they showed Goodell sitting in the stands wearing Pats gear during the Ravens game I said the same thing.
     
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  8. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Like I said, nothing will happen even if it's proven that they cheated. If it was us, we would already have had suspensions/fines/loss of draft picks.
     
  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Which is weird because on the one hand, he seems in bed with the Patriots. On the other hand, he set up a sting instead of just warning them. Or ... it wasn't Goodell who set the sting up.
     
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  10. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    [video=youtube;CxsXFX3tDpg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsXFX3tDpg[/video]
     
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  11. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    “Direct” evidence is evidence that establishes a particular fact without the need to make an inference in order to connect the evidence to the fact. “Circumstantial” evidence, on the other hand, requires an inference to be made in order to establish a fact.

    We have no direct evidence.
     
  13. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    End. Of. Story.

    This is a non-issue. Thanks for showing this. Fans who think the Pats cheated on this one are simply doing so on the basis of bias toward the Dolphins and hatred - not objectivity.

    Throw in the fact that the footballs were being thrown all over the place, and used up - and that adds to the potential or decreased psi.

    I was talking with someone who has worked outside with various materials with air in them and he noted this happens all the time.

    All this thread is, is a conspiracy thread. Those convinced the Pats cheated should spend the rest of the year looking for Big Foot, UFOs, and join the John Birch Society.

    The whole, "Brady lied," is pure BS.
     
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  14. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Of course, Circumstantial evidence is very valuable evidence and it is used every day in courts across the U.S.

    The problem is not anything related to whether circumstantial evidence is valid or not. The problem is, there is no legitimate circumstantial evidence that the Pats cheated. The only clear 'circumstantial evidence' is that there are a ton of fans from other teams (including the Dolphins) who wish the Pats cheated so bad on this that they suspend objectivity and choose to believe the Pats cheated.
     
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  15. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Ummm...Thanks for that, I guess. Although, I clearly already know this.

    You must have missed the point.

    You insinuated that circumstantial evidence is not making a strong case against the Pats so you claimed that your "lawyer perspective" won't allow you to believe that the Pats cheated. I pointed out that in most cases circumstantial evidence convicts people and is also stronger than direct evidence.

    So far, the circumstantial evidence is pointing towards the Patriots tampering with their footballs. The question at this point, at least to most rational people, is who and how. Sure, there are other theories, some even plausible if you leave out a key point or two, but when you include everything that has happened with the Pats since 2001 it's fairly obvious that they did this and knew about this. Everything from Spygate to Brady admitting he likes less inflated footballs, to him spearheading the new football handling rules, to the fact that their turnover ratio since the start of those new rules is statistically impossible points to them being responsible.

    But some people just want to give them the benefit of the doubt.
     
  16. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Far from the end. There are so many things they did that didn't happen to those balls. This "experiment" would fail in even the most elementary of science labs.
     
  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The fact that 11 of their 12 balls were under inflated while not one of the Colts balls were is circumstantial evidence that points toward manipulation of the pressure.
     
  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And you know what the pre-game test PSI was of the Colts balls were, and what the halftime PSI were?
     
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  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What did they do that didn't happen? They went from 75F to 50F, and wet the ball.
     
  20. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Ideal gas law says that PV=nRT. In chemistry and physics, this is symplified to PV/T = PV/T when comparing the same amount of material at different volume, temperature, and/ or pressure. Since we know the volume (size) of the football remained the same, only the temperature and pressure changed. This lets us simplify the equation further to P/T = P/T
    Pressure needs to be converted to atmospheres. 12.5 PSI is 0.850574549 atm. Temperature needs to be in Kelvin. Room temp of 68 degrees is 293.15 Kelvin. The temperature dropped to the upper 40s by the end of the game, so we'll call it 48 degrees (282.039 Kelvin). This would cause pressure to drop to 12.02 PSI. If the room they were filled in was 75F and a drop to 48F on the field, you get ~11.7 psi.

    For the pressure inside a football to drop 2 psi, and if filled in a 70 degree room, the balls would have to get close to the freezing point, which didn’t happen. Some want to assume that outside air pressure might also play a big role, but that’s probably not the case. For one thing, while the field is often much colder than the locker room, there’s rarely a big difference in pressure.


    Plus, if anything, the atmospheric pressure on Sunday was actually low (which is what generally happens when it rains). And low pressure would make the balls seem more inflated, not less. Temperature may have played a role, but the field wasn’t cold enough to explain the full 2 psi drop. More likely, the weather had an accomplice.
     
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  21. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Unless the Colts balls were over inflated, also illegal, then theirs would have also been under the league minimum. That is unless you believe they have magic balls.
     
  22. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Maybe I worded that wrong. How did they "soak" the balls? Submersion? Spray bottle? How long were they wet? Their numbers are all guesses, and frankly guesses leaning towards ensuring a 2psi drop. There's a big difference, in regards to pressure, between 70-75 degrees.
     
  23. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Or the Colts and Patriots both know what they like. Does Andrew Luck like a 12.5-13.5 ball? If so they're smart enough to fill them up outside in the elements. The ball would take quite a bit of time to reach ambient temp so if you can get them tested within a minute or so, the readings wouldn't change much. From that video it takes about 3 seconds to check each ball and from what I've read (conjecture) they don't really check each and every one.

    Patriots being the sneaky bastards they are know this. Inflate them to 12.5 exactly, in a 75F room. Keep them at that temperature until testing. Take them outside and they deflate. If you read the actual PDF seen at the bottom of this page http://www.headsmartlabs.com/ you see that just moving the ball from a 75F room to a 50F room causes an average 1.1 loss in PSI, before introducing water. This can be tested and repeated by anyone.

    Do I think the Patriots took advantage of this? Abso-fracking-lutely. That's why TB and BB both went up there and said, FU Goodell, prove it.

    And Bill Nye is pretty much full of chit ain't he.
     
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  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They just dunked it, wiped off excess on towel, and set it on a rack to allow any changes.

    That said, they noted a 1.1 loss in pressure just with the temp changes. And now PFT is reporting 10 balls were closer to 1 lb loss, not 2.
     
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  25. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Again, 75-50 are made up numbers. Also, if you do the math, and if mine was correct, that 1.1 loss is not correct. A ball inflated to 12.5 psi at 68 degrees will go down to 12.02 in 48 degrees. A ball filled to 12.5 at 70 degrees will go down to 11.7 at 48 degrees. Also, how did they wet the balls?
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I wonder if dunking them caused any more pressure loss? I haven't read anything other than the 11 were all close to 2.
     
  27. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Do the math? They're doing it for real. Don't do the math. Just do it. They did and filmed it. Anyone can do this.
     
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  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/

    We don't know the truth because the NFL hasn't released it yet.
     
  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Thank you Mister Dong Man. :shifty:
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That seems like the simplest most plausible explanation to me. However getting a ball person to admit Tom or Billy put them up to it, is highly unlikely.
     
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  31. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    While this is correct, there's always the fact that NOTHING is done to a ball without the QBs okay. A ball person's job is to get the ball to the QBs liking.

    Circumstantial, yes. Enough to apply a punishment? We'll have to see.
     
  32. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    AP: "Richard Sherman Suspended For The Superbowl For Incendiary Comments"

    Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 4
     
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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Except, the circumstantial evidence we have right now isn't on the level of fingerprints. It's more on the level of this: You are at work, and overheard to say, "I wish my stupid boss was dead! I HATE him." Then, the next day, your boss is found dead in his living room. You are brought in for questioning, due to your statement at work, and are summarily convicted on nothing more than you saying, "I wish my stupid boss was dead! I HATE him."
     
  34. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    If we're gonna go that route, I'd argue it's more along the line of:
    Your boss is found dead and you are brought in as a suspect not just for the comments, but for your past history of doing things to former bosses and general lack of trustworthiness.
     
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  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No, its like saying all that and the next day the boss is dead by 12 stab wounds from 12 different knives and you have 11 of those 12. Oh and you've been convicted of murder before.
     
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  36. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    And the other suspect (The Colts) has a rock solid alibi.
     
  37. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Hahaha. Dude, you are involved in more special pleading than a bad lawyer. Anyone who has played in cold, damp weather knows footballs lose their pressure in a short time (it's not just how wet the football is, btw, the dampness contributes to deflation as well). At the same, time, they are working with those footballs before the game to get them softened and scuffed up. Plus, playing with them.

    Don't ever become a scientist. The bias will destroy your research.

    Again, this is a dead issue.
     
  38. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    That's not correct. If the ball is 12.5 psig, then you need to account for the pressure of the atmosphere which is 14.696psi. That's 1.85 atmospheres after conversion.
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This is no different that sticking a needle in the ball and replacing it.
     

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