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Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MAFishFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, no, because in my example the footballs are the victim. And, there is no "knife" that has been found in possession of the Patriots. What we have is a victim (lower psi footballs), and a statement from Brady (he likes the balls soft and deflated). LOL. There is literally no evidence that the Patriots tampered with the balls post pre-game check. We can all theorize all we want about HOW the balls lost their pressure, but the fact is, NO ONE KNOWS. You cannot convict someone of something with no evidence. Deflated balls is evidence of nothing other than deflated balls. It doesn't prove that a ballboy let air out. It doesn't prove that Brady or Bellichick instructed people to let the air out.

    BTW, it's incredibly important in all this to know the psi numbers of the Patriots AND Colts balls at the pre-game check, AND the psi numbers of the Patriots AND Colts balls at the next check. Without knowing where both teams balls started, and where they finished, there is no way of knowing if the Patriots balls had a greater disparity in psi numbers. If the Colts balls were initially at a higher psi than the Patriots balls, it would stand to reason that they would finish at a higher psi. Arguing that because the Colts balls were still in the standard does not automatically mean that the Patriots deflated balls.
     
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    We know that the Colts' balls were within the mandated range. Thats all we need to know.
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So is it your opinion that when a team is playing at Lambeau, in 10 degree weather, that if they inflate the balls inside where it's warm, that they are cheating? Following this logic, shouldn't teams have to inflate the balls in a temperature that is equal to what they will be playing in, to ensure that the pressure in the balls doesn't fluctuate?
     
  4. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    A sting? Thats how you're describing it at this point?
     
  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If they play knowing their balls are below the mandated PSI, then they are cheating.

    Teams are responsible for ensuring that their balls are within the mandated range. However they do that is neither here nor there.
     
  6. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I think the balls should be inflated/tested on the field of play. That may not be stated in the current rules however.
     
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  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's really not, as has been demonstrated several times in the thread. Let's use arbitrary numbers: Colts balls initially at 13.5, Patriots balls initially at 12.5. Each set of balls goes outside, and lose 1.5 psi. The Patriots balls are now at 11psi, Colts balls are at 12psi. Would you argue that both teams cheated? Now, what if the Colts inflated their balls above the limit? We know Aaron Rodgers has that done, and I think it's safe to say that he wouldn't have it done if over-inflated balls weren't making it to the field for him to use.
     
  8. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    They said FU Goodell, because they are daring the NFL to acknowledge that they cheated? If Goodell came out today with a video of Pats intentionally deflating balls, it would be a disaster for the NFL. The Patriots know this, which is why they have repeatedly broken the rules.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Teams are responsible for ensuring that throughout the game? Or just at the initial check? Are they allowed to readjust the balls during the game?
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The reports we have heard are that the Colts had their balls within the required range at every juncture, which presumably includes prior to the game when officials tested them.
     
  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Are teams allowed to have the balls next to heaters on the field? Are they required to? I guess what I'm getting at is someone can follow the rule, and still find ways around it, especially in this case. I don't think that necessarily makes them a "cheater." If the rule stipulates that the balls have to be between 12.5psi-13.5psi at the pre-game check, but then makes no considerations for how the balls are stored outside in cold, wet weather, it's not "cheating" if the balls are inflated to 12.5psi, and then left out in the cold, wet weather with no considerations taken to ensure the psi remains at 12.5psi.
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The ball is required to be between 12.5 and 13.5. There is nothing in the rules stating that requirement to only apply at any particular juncture.
     
  13. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The rule is have your ball >12.5 and <13.5. You can't follow the rule and find a way around it. If you're below 12.5, you're not following the rule.
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So are teams allowed to mess with the psi during the game? Apparently the refs are the ones who inflate the balls prior to the game, and they inflate it to the request of the team. If teams are not allowed to change psi during the game, which I would assume they wouldn't be allowed to, how are they to ensure the psi stays where it was set?
     
  16. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The teams are allowed to do whatever the want, provided they do not violate the requirements. There is nothing that prevents them from inflating/deflating balls during the game, so long as they are between 12.5 and 13.5.

    There is no rule prohibting teams from 'messing' with them during the game. They just have to meet the requirements provided by the league.
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's interesting. If the refs have to be the ones to inflate before the game, why would teams be allowed to inflate/deflate at will during the game?
     
  18. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Brady: Feelings hurt but moving on: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12229774/tom-brady-new-england-patriots-putting-personal-feelings-aside-deflategate-concentrate-super-bowl-xlix

    LMAO. You know this is gotta be killing Brady. The biggest game of his season (hell, maybe career), and he can't get away from this scandal. Couldn't happen to a better guy. What a douche.
     
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  19. JDelenne

    JDelenne Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    As long as it doesn't go over or under the league provided capacity..
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Then your analogy is bad from a concept standpoint. Because if the balls are the victims, then there are 11 of them not one.

    Which would mean, your employee threatened to kill 11 coworkers, not 1.

    If one ball was deflated your questions would make sense. 11 of 12 were bad and 12 of 12 of the Colts were fine.

    And again, if you want to go for the whole "what were the Colts psi at before the game", then the ONLY scenario that would answer is that someone had deflated ALL the balls from both teams, then reinflated all 12 of the Colts and just 1 of the Pats. I want you to think long and hard about that. Its not likely and it doesn't even make sense.

    At the time everything was tested, the Colts were in regulation the Pats very much weren't. Everything else is irrelevant.
     
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  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes ballbags are kept by heaters in those type of games.
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So, Fin D, if most of the Patriots balls were 1psi off, which is the newest report, that would put most of them at 11.5psi, if they started at 12.5psi. If the Colts balls started at 13.5psi, and went down to 12.5psi, do you not see how that information is relevant? The Colts balls could have had the same drop in psi, but stayed within the rule because they were inflated higher to begin with.

    As to the analogy, the analogy was meant to show that you wouldn't be put in prison for being overheard to want someone dead, and that person ending up dead. The exact amount of dead isn't the point.
     
  23. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Between 12.5-13.5. Balls pulled at the same time the Pats balls were pulled and none of the Colts balls were below 12.5. Pretty straightforward.
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The refs aren't the ones that inflate before the game, unless the balls are already below the threshold. The rule specifically states:

     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    But it's not straightforward. People are basically saying, "The Colts balls were still within the limits, so the Patriots cheated by deflating balls!!" Yet, what I, and others, are asking, is what was the deviation for the Colts? IF the Colts balls did NOT deviate AT ALL, then perhaps there was something up. The Colts balls still being in the 12.5-13.5 window is meaningless, without knowing those numbers. That is why it would be helpful to know the pre-game numbers, and the halftime check numbers, FOR BOTH TEAMS. Further, if the Colts balls showed little to no variance, then it would be necessary to know if they kept the balls on the heated benches, covered, and if the Patriots let their balls flop around in the cold, wind, and rain.
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The team furnishes the footballs...according to BB, the balls are given to the refs who inflate them, according to the psi wishes of each team, and then inspects them to make sure they aren't grooved, or otherwise marred according to the rules.
     
  27. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I read that as "ballgags." Oops.
     
  28. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I'm not sure why any of this is relevant. If the Colts balls went from 13.5 to 12.5, they were within the rules. If the Patriots balls went from 12.5 to 11.5, they were not within the rules. However the balls deflated does not change the fact that the rules were violated. The Patriots are responsible for ensuring the balls are 12.5. They didn't do that, and gained an advantage from it.
     
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  29. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Again, the team is responsible for making sure the balls are at 12.5 at all times. This includes before and during the game.
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's highly relevant, as it would remove the possibility of there being tampering with the balls.

    I don't believe for one second that any NFL team, playing in cold weather, is reinflating balls throughout the course of games, to make sure the balls remain at least 12.5psi. I think that most teams have balls filled by the refs to their preferred psi, and never think about it again once the game starts.
     
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That is not what the rule states.

    In fact, a pure reading of the rule seems to indicate that the balls simply must meet the requirements when the balls are given to the refs for the initial check. Now, we can assume that they intend for the rule to go all game, but it doesn't specify that. Perhaps they should change the rule, to reflect what they actually want, so that no team can game the system
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Why did you leave out the last part:

    The rule explicitly says "at all times".
     
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  33. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Or it proves they gamed the system knowing the temperature would take the balls down the psi level they benefit from.

    And since you can't ever discern that, then you go by the very simple benchmark of "were they regulation when tested". They weren't.

    Again, all of tis is based on the fact do these proven cheaters deserve the benefit of the doubt?
     
  35. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Its quite possible that the Pats used the change in temperate to circumvent the rules. But I'm not buying that the Colts were doing the same thing because then it would have been silly of them to complain to the NFL.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I didn't intentionally...I copy and pasted from a .pdf of the rulebook. Regardless, a "playable ball" would be defined as a ball submitted at the pre-game check, and validated by the refs. Since the refs don't continuously inspect balls throughout the game, then any ball that was validated at the pre-game check would be considered "playable" and would be furnished by the ballboys.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    At which test? Were they regulation at the initial test? If so, I don't believe the rules lay out any procedures for maintaining those conditions as the game goes on.
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It. Doesn't. Matter.

    If they test at 10 minute intervals throughout the game, then ball has to be regulation at each test. If they test pregame or right after the game, the ball has to be regulation. If they test at 13 minutes and 24 seconds into the second quarter, then the ball has to be regulation.

    You're literally inventing reasons to not accept this.
     
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  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    You are inventing the 'validation' process to be finite. They literally use the phrase "at all times".

    The refs do inspect balls throughout the game. They did it to the Patriots in the very instance we are discussing.
     
  40. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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