1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MAFishFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    45,652
    19,304
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Windsor, ON. CANADA
    Of course, how surprising. They're going to pin it on a lowly ball boy now. Who by the way is still a team employee. So... rogue or not, still the teams fault IMO. He's THEIR employee, they are responsible for his actions, the same way they should be if Tom Brady had done it himself.

    Wouldnt be surprised, ballboy looses his job, Pats get off lightly, ball boy never has to work again in his life as he miraculously discovers a small fortune somewhere.
     
  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Do you know that there was no change in psi for the Colts? All we know is that their balls still tested within the limit. What if their balls went from 13.5psi to 12.5psi? People keep making the claim that the Colts balls didn't deflate or have a change in PSI, but we don't know that.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    But we do know they didn't deflate passed regulation limits. Why do you keep ignoring that very simple fact?

    One more time, people are just shortening "the Colts balls didn't deflate passed regulation limits" to "the colts balls didn't deflate".

    The reason they are doing that, is because it doesn't matter if the Colts balls deflated and stayed in the the legal limits. Dear god, man honestly think about how ridiculous your argument is:

    You're saying we don't know if the Colts balls deflated at all, in some attempt to let the Pats off the hook due to environmental conditions. The part you're stubbornly ignoring is that even if the Colts balls deflated some, they still stayed in the legal limits which means there's no reason the Pats couldn't have done the same damn thing and been legal. They didn't, therefore they broke the rules.

    Your point has no point. Think about it.

    Tell you what, for the purpose of this argument I'll stipulate the Colts balls deflated some. Ok, now what? They were still within regulation, and the Pats were not. How in hairy hell does that let the Pats off the hook? They still broke the rules.
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    There is a point, FinD. Why should we discuss anything, if we aren't being accurate in what we're saying? It's ridiculous. If you want to argue that the Colts balls were still in compliance, than argue that. But DON'T say that the evidence of the Patriots cheating is because the Colts balls didn't deflate. We don't know if they deflated. Of course, this gets back into the argument that you believe it's cheating to submit balls at 12.5psi, and not refill them if they deflate naturally. That's fine. But don't use the argument that "The Colts balls didn't deflate, so obviously the Patriots are cheaters."

    It's a simple concept, and you're being willfully obtuse, IMO, to continue to harp on me for wanting people to stop making these erroneous claims.

    Also, IF the Colts balls deflated, but were set at 13.5psi, and the Colts never reinflated during the game, you are essentially arguing that the Patriots must set their balls at 13.5psi, too. I have a hard time believing that teams are allowed to change the psi of the balls during the game. That would lend itself to easily bending rules during the game. If the refs have to check the psi before the game, why would they allow teams to adjust it during games? Doesn't make any sense.
     
    Vertical Limit likes this.
  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Sigh.

    The distinction you're hanging on to is not the goddamned Zapruder film. The distinction means nothing. The regulation doesn't say the balls can't deflate on their own or by someone's hand. It says the psi must be no lower than X. The regulation makes no distinction for weather, which means the weather is irrelevant. Again, you're arguing intent and intent has **** all to do with the rule.

    But fine, let's argue intent, give me one single irrefutable reason the Pats should be trusted? There isn't one, they've cheated before. They've already lied about this incident. The fumble numbers are damning. Your only argument here is that maybe the Colts balls deflated some too. To which I say again, so effing what? They didn't deflate past legal limits which means it was not out of the Pats control to keep their footballs legal. Why in the name of god are you ignoring that over and over? Also, the regulation doesn't say the footballs can't be checked at any point during the game. Your argument basically hinges on the fact the NFL doesn't for some reason care what psi the balls are during the game, only before the game when no one's using the ball. Think about how ridiculous that is. That's like saying its ok if a player tests negative for PEDs before the game so he can take them during the game.
     
  6. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

    16,376
    10,864
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    I guess...but you do got to be careful because I can't tell you as a kid how many times I would try to deflate a basketball that is too bouncy only to find I went to far and end up looking for the pump again. If he goes to far what does he do? Pull out a mini-pump he bought at the same Wal-Mart he got the pin?

    I'm just trying to be Devils Advocate here.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Its been going on for years. I'm sure the guy has had plenty of practice at it. After you pour a handful of drinks, its easy to gauge when you've poured a shot without a shot glass. Same thing. They probably do it the same way, a simple count.
     
    CaribPhin, fin13, Ronnie Bass and 2 others like this.
  8. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Not sure if this has been posted:

    [video=youtube;6ttq6s7VnQM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ttq6s7VnQM[/video]
     
  9. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

    9,775
    5,149
    113
    May 7, 2008
    North Cacalaka
    Because you are not allowed to pump up the balls, only the refs can do that.


     
    resnor likes this.
  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Practice makes perfect. The Colts complained about this back in November:

    http://deadspin.com/report-nfl-was-aware-of-patriots-deflation-allegations-1680914291

    It's something that this guy has probably done before. It would be illogical that he'd be a lone actor. Unless he's absolutely an idiot and was potentially sabotaging the team he worked for, he'd have to have been told by the players/coaches that they prefer footballs below the threshold. As an example, Rodgers asks for highly inflated footballs which are inflated before the measurement and corrected as best as they can by refs leaving some room for slight over-inflation possibly or just being restored to normal boundaries.

    Wilson came out and explicitly stated that any explanation other than tampering is pretty much bull****. If he messed up a ball, he'd have probably told the officials that the ball developed a hole or something.

    http://deadspin.com/nfl-football-manufacturer-also-says-bill-belichick-is-f-1681802079
     
  11. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Teams provide the balls to the officials for testing because they're team balls. After they're weighed, they're returned to the team's possession which carries them to the field and maintains them through the game. Saying they're not allowed to do anything to the footballs is like saying people aren't allowed to commit crime. That would explain all those empty prisons.
     
  12. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    It's a pump you work with your thumb. Has a built in electronic gauge.
     
    Ronnie Bass likes this.
  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I just think it's ridiculous for people to just blatantly make stuff up. We don't know if the Colt's balls deflated or not. You can say it's meaningless, and that's fine, but stop using that as "proof" that the Patriots cheated.
     
  14. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    Not even.

    http://www.amazon.com/Mikasa-Digital-Pressure-Ball-Gauge/dp/B000F7WN9E
     
  15. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

    3,451
    903
    113
    Dec 15, 2014
    I'm 100% positive there is a huge difference between you as a kid doing it and a professional that a cheating organization hired to do it. Just saying.
     
  16. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

    9,775
    5,149
    113
    May 7, 2008
    North Cacalaka
    I'm not saying anything occurred or didn't occur. I'm talking about the legality of it.

    Blandino said specifically, you are not allowed to do anything to the ball. He is the VP of officiating. I'll take his word for it.
     
    resnor likes this.
  17. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

    2,435
    1,672
    113
    Apr 27, 2013
    Brazil
    So wait, they're going to blame this on the ball boy? Who in their right mind would do extra work that you weren't even supposed to do and then, on top of it all, not even tell your boss? I mean it's one thing for someone to do extra work and then suck up to one's boss, 'cause it could be beneficial in the future... but to work more, for no apparent reason, and then not tell anyone about it?? The ball boy would have to have some type of mental illness...
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Jesus dude.

    - The balls were below the legal limit, that means the Pats broke the rules. That is inarguable.
    - The fact that the Colts didn't have balls below legal limits proves the weather/environment is not a suitable excuse for breaking the rules. That is inarguable.
    - The Pats have a history of shady behavior and flat out cheating. That is inarguable.

    You read all that and still come up with...but, but, but, so and so said the Colts balls didn't deflate at all and maybe they did .2 psi. Its absurd. This isn't 12 Angry Men. You have no leg to stand on. Every point you've brought up has been either thoroughly debunked or proven to be not important. At this point, you're clinging to the argument and not the stance.

    One last time, the Colts balls didn't come in under the legal limit so it doesn't matter if they deflated. And also, I'm gonna say from now on that the Colts balls didn't deflate because I don't want to type out the whole thing, so you'll just have to deal with it.
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  19. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

    3,088
    765
    0
    Oct 1, 2012
    He is just trolling you.
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No he's not.

    I respect resnor. I've agree with him in the past.
     
    resnor likes this.
  21. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

    9,775
    5,149
    113
    May 7, 2008
    North Cacalaka
    [​IMG]
     
    Fin D likes this.
  22. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

    3,088
    765
    0
    Oct 1, 2012
    Fine then debate the "How do you know the Colts balls" yada yada to death its your time ;)
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ok.

    So explain to me the magic used by the Colts? Why were their balls within the limits and the Pats' weren't.

    Pixie farts?
     
  24. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

    3,451
    903
    113
    Dec 15, 2014
    It will come to light that the Patriots cheated again, and I will be able to say I wasnt surprised since the moment the story broke the news. Saying the Pats arent cheaters is like saying drug addicts arent hooked on drugs.
     
  25. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

    16,376
    10,864
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Yeah I guess it could be done in haste but still effectively. One thing we know for sure is he would NEVER act alone. Gotta make this kid sequel like Ned Beatty in Deliverance.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  26. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

    9,775
    5,149
    113
    May 7, 2008
    North Cacalaka
    psh. obviously it was colder on that side of the stadium

    get with it Tony.
     
    resnor likes this.
  27. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    6,066
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY
    Or, $$$$$$ , I dont know, $$$$$$, maybe some sort of incentive $$$$$$.
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    1. Yes, it proves that the Pats balls ended up below the legal limit. What I want to know, is ARE teams allowed to adjust PSI during the game? What I've seen, and what would make sense, in regards to having pre-game checks by the refs, is that they are not allowed to adjust PSI during the game.
    2. The Colts balls not being below the legal limit doesn't necessarily prove anything. Were their balls at 13.5psi at pre-check? Did their balls show ANY variance in PSI after the two checks? Did they store their balls covered on heated benches? If their balls showed variance, how much was it? If the reports about the majority of Pats balls being 1psi below is accurate, would it not be good to know if the Colts balls showed such variance? If the Colts balls showed no such variance, would it not be good to know if they stored them differently than the Pats during the game?
    3. Yes, agreed.

    I'm not trolling. It's important to me, to know certain things: are teams allowed to adjust the PSI during the game? IF THEY ARE, then there is no excuse for the Patriots, and they are cheating. IF THEY ARE NOT, then teams that set balls at 12.5psi, and the balls fall below that due to natural causes, are currently not cheating. If we knew what the Colts' numbers were, and we knew how they stored their balls, we would know much more accurately how viable the Patriots claim is that the balls deflated naturally.
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I've been giving you possible reasons throughout this thread...but you keep telling me it doesn't matter, that Patriots cheated because their balls fell below the legal limit...after they were checked by the refs and validated to be at the legal limit.
     
  30. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    This is some beautiful 2piR logic
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    The rule is the rule. The Colts found a way to make sure their balls weren't illegal. The Pats did not. That's why it doesn't matter what the Colts starting psi was because their ending psi wasn't against the rules. The Pats on the other hand...

    Furthermore, its already been debunked that the conditions on the field would have dropped the psi on the Pats balls to that degree.

    There is literally nothing left to hang your hat on. There's no new info that can come to light that can exonerate the Pats in this, especially from the Colts.
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I dunno why you're harping on this.

    The balls being below the legal limit before or during the game is the fault of the team that provided those balls. They are checked at the start of the game to make sure the team isn't starting the game with illegal balls, why do you think that concern stops once the game starts? It makes no sense.

    Like I said, if a player tested negative for PEDs before the game but tests positive after the game mean he's free and clear? Of course not.

    The Colts footballs prove it was possible in those specific conditions to have legal balls before and during the game.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Again, is it allowed for teams to adjust the PSI after the refs check the balls? If they are, that seems incredibly stupid, as what would be the point of the pre-game check? If they are not allowed to adjust the PSI during the game, then complaining about natural causes leading to balls deflating is pointless. As to it being "disproved," how can you say that with any certainty? There are way too many experiments that have been done, and some say that it could have happened, some say it couldn't.

    Like I said, IF teams are allowed to adjust PSI during the game, then the Patriots have no leg to stand on. IF they are not, then setting balls at 12.5psi is going to result in balls going below that, at some point, for some team, during every season. So, again I come back to, if the NFL wants to be sure that balls stay between 12.5-13.5psi during games, then they need to have a crew that manages balls during the games.
     
  34. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

    3,451
    903
    113
    Dec 15, 2014
    What better place to deflate footballs then a bathroom (which typically have no cameras)? They weren't deflated because of weather, they were deflated in a bathroom by a ball boy lol Everyone will see the truth soon enough.
     
    RGF likes this.
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    The pre game check is to make sure the balls are legal at the start of the goddamned game. Why is that stupid to you? The Colts had legal balls before and during the game, which means its possible in those conditions to do it without adjusting the psi. Its the Patriots responsibility to factor in weather/environmental conditions when setting up there equipment. You think Belichick wouldn't pitch a fit if the players cleats weren't the right length for the environment and they were sliding everywhere? But the balls? No that's fine.:pity: You are literally not thinking this through.

    Like I said, you've just been at this so long you don't want to give up the argument.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Fin, are you reading what I write? I said it's stupid if teams are allowed to adjust the PSI of the balls FOLLOWING the pre-game check. Further, of COURSE it's possible to keep balls within the legal limit during the game, if they are at the upper end to begin with. What I'm saying is, IF teams are not allowed to adjust PSI during the game, and you are playing in cold weather, and your balls were set to 12.5psi, they are more than likely going to go below that limit, and you wouldn't be able to adjust them back up. What you are seemingly advocating is that teams that know they will be playing in cold weather MUST have the balls initially at 13.5psi, to avoid them falling below. OR, simply, the NFL could mandate that the balls have to be kept in a covered, heated container, to ensure that the balls stay at whatever PSI they were initially set for.

    This is, of course, based on my assumption that the balls can't be adjusted by the team during the game.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Then you shouldn't have your balls at the lower limit. Why is this so damn hard to grasp? The balls are your responsibility. If you do the bare minimum and that bites you in the *** because of conditions you knew about then that's still your fault.

    Its legal to duck tape your taillight to your car, but if it falls off along the way, you'll still get pulled over.
     
  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    What I'm getting at, is IF teams are not allowed to adjust PSI during the game, then the NFL has created this scenario. If you allow QBs to set the ball at the lower limit, but give no rules or ability to keep the ball there, or adjust it back up, who's fault is that?

    There are rules in the NFL rulebook about the width of the lines on the field. Is it your belief that when one of the lines gets marred by someone dragging their foot on it, that the field is now out of regulation, and the game should be in question if the line is repaired during the game?
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Then there should be no limit. No matter where you set the lower level, the ball can go below that. That's the logical end of your argument.
     
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Actually, no, it's not. I've suggested at least two possible solutions.

    1. NFL controls the balls throughout the game with a ball crew, and have someone monitor the pressure of each ball.
    2. Have a mandated heated, covered container that the balls must be kept in during the game to ensure the pressure stays where it was set.
     

Share This Page