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Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MAFishFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    i thought they denied it, but who knows anymore. ask again in 5 minutes and that will change.. lol
     
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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yet another Patriots fan professor chiming in and answering the WRONG QUESTIONS, attempting to use science as a means of saying "My favorite team didn't cheat, trust me I'm a scientist".

    There's no value in expert testimony if they're answering the wrong questions and conducting irrelevant experiments.

    For example he refrigerates a ball at 40 degrees even though the game conditions were 51 degrees. He also fails to acknowledge the difference between placing a ball in a refrigerator which has cold air circulating directly onto the ball, versus placing a bag full of balls on a sideline in ambient temperatures.

    He's a poor scientist, based on what I've seen.
     
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  3. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Was this employee a 5 yr old about to go on a car ride and when asked if he had to go to the bathroom he says no, but then as soon as he get's 1 mile down the road he informs his parents he has to pee?

    Because if that's the case I'll but that. However, if this were a grown *** man I won't buy that he thought it was a good idea to first pick up 24 footballs before he had to piss.
     
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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    lol...I would assume that the footballs were all inflated at the stadium and said stadium is pretty uniform in temperature. None of the balls should have deflated.
     
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  5. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    I can't think of their names but that lab in Pittsburgh supposedly did it too. The one that does all the concussion testing and such and also the Miami sun reporter did it too, but in his fridge next to his gallon of milk..
     
  6. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    you should have went before you touched my balls
     
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  7. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    Sure first of all it was 51 degrees not 30-35 they quoted. Tyson Degrasse, who I'd trust over some dude from NE said the air in the balls would have had to be 125C. SO unless they had the balls sitting in a sauna, which is cheating, they weren't hot enough to shrink. Again, science would effect all the balls exactly the same, which the Colts balls didn't drop below the acceptable PSI. If on avg the pats balls dropped 16% then the Colts balls should have dropped the same unless they were illegally store somewhere warmer. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.
     
  8. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    2006, on the day Goodell was named commissioner
     
  9. Those balls at most should of only dropped a 1/2lb psig.
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It was 51 at gametime, after the sun went down? Or there was a high of 51 that day?

    And have you seen any actual numbers on the Colts' balls? I haven't, so no one knows if they also deflated from where they were initially.
     
  11. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    first, it was 125F, not C. 125C would be 257F


    Second, he's backed off that claim and now says it would only require 90F.

    here is the link to his facebook.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/deflategate/10153074004496613
     
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  12. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Here is another back breaker: Legarrette Blount averaged a fumble every 49.1 carry's with TB/PIT. With NE, he averages a fumble every 71 carry's. Just saying.
     
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  13. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There have been a bunch of scientists using the ideal gas law to infer the temperature of the air in the balls at the time the refs checked the psi, if natural deflation was the cause. The answer you keep getting is around 90 degrees (Fahrenheit). None are saying 125 degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit, if indeed that "C" stands for Celsius. I'm betting Tyson just messed up here (not sure where he messed up, but it's likely he did). It happens..
     
  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    90 or 125...doesn't matter. The only real plausible answer for this is they either artificially created a "hot" room or they let air out the old fashioned way.
     
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  15. Without getting overly technical and explaing the properties of superheted vapors and deltas

    rule of thumb is you lose about 2% pressure for every 10 degrees the tempature inside the ball drops
     
  16. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    curious, how are the fumbles on special teams, since they use the kicker balls?
     
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  17. Just did some fast math you would need an 80f differental to create a 2lb drop
     
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  18. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    That goes against what NDT says tho, are you 100% because you could debunk a pretty smart man with that.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    80f = 80 degree Fahrenheit? Or am I missing something?
     
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  20. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    yes, that what he means.
     
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  21. i dont know the exact experiment he ran so im not going to dispute him. Generally speaking you subtract 2% psig (per square inch gauge) for evey 10 degrees Fahrenheit.

    On a sidenote something i find interesting is why they do not use pure nitrogen in the ball since it is less suseptable to tempature pressure fluctuations.
     
  22. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  23. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    cost.

    air is free.
     
  24. Personally i would like the exact data to recreate the circumstances and take an actual measurement of the drop. Thats is whats missing is the real data so it makes all opinions speculative
     
  25. nitrogen is very cheap

    the more likely answer is that the drop is so small nobody ever thought it necessary to specify what the ball is filled with
     
  26. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    so are league ball boys but we know how that is going.. lol
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I've been thinking about this, and the fumble statistics are much more damning in all this than the Colts game. Those stats seem way too coincidental.
     
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  28. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Finally! I've been pushing that from very early on in this thread! Glad to see that some of you are finally starting to come around. lol
     
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  29. if that ball boy tampered with those balls he was instructed to do so.

    im curious if the valve stems were checked. It could just be a case of them getting a bad batch from the manufacturer
     
  30. Arodgers12

    Arodgers12 Well-Known Member

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    They have the least fumbles in the NFL since 2000 hmmmmmmm.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That control experiment already happened. The Colts balls didn't deflate.

    Even Belichick knows this.

    In his initial statements he claimed that the issue was that they selected balls at the lower end of the acceptable spectrum and that the temperatures therefore caused their balls to deflate below the acceptable minimum whereas the Colts did not. This was Bill's explanation. You can read it. It's a matter of public record.

    A few days later all the sudden his explanation changes. Now a key part of the explanation involves the particular unique ways that the Patriots prep their footballs, which is not done in a heated environment (as that would be against the rules) but which does involve ball boys vigorously rubbing the footballs down to get the slick off them, which created artificially high psi in the footballs at testing, and therefore that is why their footballs deflated so much.

    Implied in this changing of the explanation is that the NFL has before and after psi measurement data on both the Patriots balls and the Colts balls, and irrefutably the Patriots balls deflated much more. That is why Belichick was forced to change his explanation. This is not a man that holds press conference and explains difficult subjects to the press voluntarily. He did it because he knew his first explanation wasn't sufficient. The reason that first explanation wasn't sufficient was the Colts balls didn't deflate. Or they didn't deflate near as much as the Patriots balls.

    That's your control experiment right there. It's already been done.
     
  32. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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  33. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    :sidelol:

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  34. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Silva vs Diaz DeflateGate.

    [video=youtube;L9JQiUkVWho]https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422327029&v=L9JQiUkVWho&x-yt-cl=84838260[/video]
     
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  35. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I seriously doubt that would be the case. These balls are hand picked by Wilson and GIVEN to the NFL. They are tested, one can assume, better than their average "street" ball.
     
  36. NolePhin15

    NolePhin15 Well-Known Member

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    [h=1]The other Patriots conspiracy theory: LeGarrette Blount's scheme to reunite with Bill Belichick?
    PHOENIX - It's not the big conspiracy theory that everyone is talking about. There are no footballs, equipment managers or surveillance tape. But it's still a question that New England Patriots running back LeGarrette Blount can't answer with a straight face.
    Did Blount engineer his release from the Pittsburgh Steelers earlier this season because he knew the Patriots wanted him back? Did someone tell him he had a job waiting for him? Is this Super Bowl a reward for a twisted scheme?
    On Tuesday, Blount repeatedly reacted to those questions with little more than Cheshire grins and half-hearted denials. One exchange in particular:

    "Did you know you had a job with New England before you left Pittsburgh?"
    Long pause. Big smile. No answer.
    "Why would you leave if you didn't know in the back of your mind that they were waiting to call you?"
    Big smile. Subtle laugh.
    "I didn't know nothin'," Blount said.
    One more laugh.
    It wasn't exactly convincing. And this is why there are those within the NFL community who continue to maintain that Blount's self-induced meltdown and subsequent banishment from Pittsburgh was orchestrated toward a pre-determined end: Get out of Pittsburgh, slide back into New England. Correct a free-agent mistake that never should have been made in the first place.
    It was no secret that Blount had an issue with his role in Pittsburgh almost immediately. After signing with the expectation that he'd share a sizeable part of the rushing load, Blount was arrested with running back Le'Veon Bell and booked on marijuana-related charges. That moment was particularly troubling in the Steelers organization because Bell was known as a good egg, whereas Blount had a checkered history during his football career.
    Following that incident, Blount started off with only seven carries in his first two games. And things got worse after a 10-carry, 118-yard rushing effort against the Carolina Panthers on Sept. 21. Conventional thought was that Blount would carry a greater load after that game. Instead, he followed it up with four carries in a 27-24 loss to a bad Tampa Bay Buccaneers team. From that point on, his role in the Steelers offense was clear: He was a guy who would occasionally spell Bell, and would rarely have a larger role installed for him.
    [/h]
     
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  37. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    So before he arrives at NE he doesn't know a super secret technique for holding onto the ball that belongs to BB; get taught it and uses it while at NE; then forgets it when he goes to Pitt; then suddenly remembers it again when he comes back to NE?

    The analysis was done at Sharp Football. Short version is players fumble less at NE than they do before they join NE and they fumble more after leaving NE. Also this sudden ability to hold onto the ball at NE happened only in the 2007 to 2014 era when NE is allowed to prep their own footballs.
     
  38. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    One other thing I'd like to point out to the air pressure experts is that they have left out a crucial variable, specifically the efficiency of the insulation of the bladder and the leather inside the ball.

    Yes eventually the air pressure differential will cause deflation, but will it happen in the time frames of the game? The control experiment of the Colts demonstrates that the answer is "no". the second experiment of the second half, when the balls would have been reinflated at room temperature and didn't deflate in the second half says "no".

    On a practical note, if you did want to rely on the "natural deflation method" there are too many moving variables that a team would have to track (air pressure, temperature of the heated room, outside air temperature, temperature in the referees room, predicted changes in the natural environment, whether it is a wet or dry environment, rate of exchange of heat, the effect of 12 heated balls being in a bag creating their own micro environment). On the other hand you can just rely on an equipment guy with a needle and guage.

    I suspect the natural deflation method of football would work about as well as the natural rythym method of birth control, without which I wouldn't be here.
     
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  39. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    That is what we are supposed to believe yes... ;)
     
  40. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Pretty sure they aren't "league ball boys". The ball attendants are employees of the home team on game day according to an article i posted here way back when this all started.
     

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