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Bret Bielema Says Talks To Coach Phins Broke Down In 2012 Because Of Russell Wilson

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by shamegame13, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's pretty simple: people on here want to compare Tannehill to Wilson, because both are "mobile" QBs. The problem is, Tannehill is not "mobile" the same way that Wilson is. Tannehill can't go laterally like Wilson. Tannehill can be deadly on the read option, but he isn't going to dance around defenders in the backfield like Wilson does. Anyone who expects that, or wants Tannehill to try to do that, is crazy. The other problem is, that people then compare Tannehill to Wilson, and come to the conclusion that Tannehill isn't very good, because the team isn't winning, and he isn't doing the things that Wilson does. That is why myself, and others, keep bringing up things like the number of times Wilson has to throw, or the dominant defense of the Seahawks, the low point totals that Wilson (read, Seahwaks) has to exceed to win, or the dominant run game that he benefits from. You cannot compare these two players, everything is far, far too different. Somehow, it all gets twisted up that the Tannehill fans are trying to demean Wilson in order to make Tannehill look good. Frankly, that's not my goal. Wilson is a good, young QB. Tannehill is a good, young QB. Both are in very different situations, both developmentally, and the team/organization around them.
     
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  2. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    ROFLMAO 9 players he uses as reference to bash Tannehill and 4 are listed as backups but they got in a playoff game.
     
  3. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    And RG111 Really?
     
  4. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    The team isn't winning as much as the Seahawks in part because Tannehill isn't playing as well as Wilson is individually. And that has nothing to do with the other parts of either the Dolphins or the Seahawks (running game, defense, etc.).

    There is no objective evidence to suggest that Tannehill is playing as well as Wilson is individually, or that either player's individual play is a function of what's going on around them on their respective teams. People can certainly believe either of those things, but there is nothing objective to support those beliefs. They are personal opinions only, with no objective support for them.
     
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  5. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Look at how butthurt you guys get though.... Why so serious..
     
  6. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Because Tannehill as a #9 overall pick was supposed to fix what's been going on with the team since Dan Marino left his prime, and it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that a player picked two rounds later the same year has fixed another team to a much larger degree in the interim.
     
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  7. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    These guys just make it too easy to get under their skin, I posted a post on how RT17 is the only QB out of the first 9 QBs in 2012 draft class to not make the playoffs yet and all these posters are butthurt like what I posted was a lie.
     
  8. Zounds

    Zounds New Member

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    I think Bielema is trying to get his name back into NFL coaching candidate conversations by reminding everyone that he coached Russell Wilson, and that he was considered to coach in Miami.
     
  9. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    :crapstrom:
     
  10. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    :crapstrom:
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Because your point was stupid.

    Its as dumb and pointless, as saying the only QB from that draft that plays in South Florida weather for 8 games a year hasn't made the playoffs, therefore, the problem is the humidity.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He did fix it.

    Our QB play was crap till he came along. problem solved.
     
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  13. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    :crapstrom:
     
  14. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Luck>Wilson>Tannehill>Foles>Griffin III
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sooooo, you just decided to double down on being a troll?
     
  16. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Nah, I knew a ****storm was coming after I made that post, its not surprising to see all the butthurt responses.. Anybody who isn't riding RT17's jock strap is gonna get a ****storm.

    Luck>Wilson>Tannehill>Foles>Griffin III
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Can we stop referring to posters as being "butthurt"? It doesn't add anything to the discussion, and it certainly doesn't bolster your position at all. The only thing it does is put people on the defensive, and invite other posters to be personal when talking back to you.

    I simply can't fathom how people who are so smart, ignore something as simple as when a player is asked to play as a part of a system, not be the system, it allows them to play much freer. Playing free usually allows players to to excel, i.e., not "forcing" it. Wilson is asked to be a part of the system, a system that includes the most dominant defense in the league the past two years, and a very good run game. Tannehill is being, and has been asked for three seasons, to be THE system. Go out, throw it 30+ times a game, and oh, by the way, we aren't going to give you a defense that is worth a crap.

    All that being said, Tannehill might not be as good as Wilson, now, or ever. I couldn't care less. Tannehill is plenty good enough right now, without getting any better, to take our team to the playoffs, and compete for a Super Bowl. I happen to think that Tannehill has not reached his ceiling, and I think he is going to continue to improve.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The butthurt is strong with this one.

    I'm sorry I couldn't resist. I actually agree with you. We need to police ourselves better with that kind of language.
     
  19. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Sure, and that's all well and good in theory, but if there's no objective evidence that the player's individual play covaries with the play of those other aspects of the team, then it's entirely possible, if not probable, that those other aspects of the team have no significant effect on his individual play.

    Certainly you have to say there is no objective evidence of that covariation, and then anyone who continues to believe there is such an effect could be said to have an awful lot of (perhaps unfounded) faith in his own personal opinion.

    I think you also have to wonder if folks like that would tout such objective evidence, if it existed, as "proof" of their belief, while considering it meaningless when it doesn't exist or it does not support their belief. Then what kind of discussion are you really having? One with any real substance?
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Prez knows I have respect for him but he's being a real poopie head on this one..
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yeah it sounds like some here are in that group..whatta the odds that prez thought brady was washed up at the beginning of the year? lol
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's no different than people touting Wilson's "intangibles." When people have to consistently perform at high levels, and all the pressure is on them, it is much harder to maintain that level, than someone who excels in a system where the pressure is not on them. It's how humans work. No, I don't have piles and piles of statistics. I also don't think that statistics are the be-all-end-all of everything. You do. That's fine. You're a numbers guy. But numbers don't account for how humans function when everything is dependent on them. It's much easier to go out and throw bombs when you know that if you don't complete it, or you throw a pick, that your defense is going to shut down the opponent. You don't think about throws. You just throw it. As opposed to the guy who knows that if he doesn't complete this pass, or if he throws a pick, there's a very strong possibility that his defense is going to allow field length drives for scores. One guy plays loose, one guy doesn't. That is something that statistics cannot prove or disprove.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    More like what are the odds he was arguing that Tom Brady is a physically limited, overrated game manager back in 2004 or 2005. I'd say the odds are fairly high.
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I used to debate ad nauseum on a Madden forum with a guy who believed exactly that stuff about Brady. I used to go round and round with him. It could turn out that I'm completely way off base on Wilson, and that's fine. But I certainly wasn't off base on what I thought about Brady. Not that it matters, I'm just a dude in NH watching football.
     
  25. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not a lie but it is a dishonest and childish comparison to use a qb that doesn't play as a comparison.
     
  26. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Sure they can. Simply take a look at how Wilson performs when the chips are down and the rest of his team isn't functioning as it usually does.

    If his individual play decreases significantly at those times, I'll be the first to admit that he's likely the recipient of better "mental health" by virtue of how the rest of his team typically plays.
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So, what does this say to you?

    9/14 - defense gives up 30 points, Seahawks lose
    10/12 - defense gives up 30 points, Seahawks lose
    10/19 - defense gives up 28 points, Seahawks lose
    11/2 - defense gives up 24 points, Seahawks win
    11/16 - defense gives up 24 points, Seahawks lose

    This season, when the Seahawks defense gives up more than 20 points, they are 1-4.

    Just for kicks, here's the Dolphins:

    9/14 - 29 points, loss
    9/21 - 34 points, loss
    10/12 - 27 points, loss
    11/23 - 39 points, loss
    12/14 - 41 points, loss
    12/21 - 35 points, win
    12/28 - 37 points, loss

    So, Tannehill and the Dolphins were 1-7 in games where the defense let up more than 20 points. 5 of those games, the defense gave up more than 30 points. Yet, we sit here debating about where the weak spot is on our team, and engaging if stupid arguments about whether Tannehill or Wilson is better.
     
  28. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    In terms of the current topic, it says nothing, because it doesn't address Wilson's individual play under those conditions at all.
     
  29. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Luck> Wilson> Tannehill > Foles > Griffin III > Everyone else
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I think it does say something: I think it says that when his defense gives up more than 20 points, Wilson isn't able to overcome that.

    9/4 - 16 points
    9/21 - 20 points
    10/6 - 17 points
    10/26 - 9 points
    11/9 - 17 points
    11/27 - 3 points
    12/7 - 14 points
    12/14 - 7 points
    12/21 - 6 points
    12/28 - 6 points

    You can't tell me that having a defense hold teams to those scores doesn't make the game much easier on Wilson.
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    there were a lot of folks saying different degrees of criticism of brady, some were like, ''he's lost arm strength, he's not as good, he's clearly descending, and the capper, he and the pats are done'' after we beat them and after their loss to the chiefs..

    I made sure i went on the record during that time, and debated something very specific during that exact time frame, and that was, I haven't detected any decline in the mans game..like nada..
     
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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, I was saying the same thing. Told all my Pats friends to just wait for the oline to gel, and Brady would be Brady again.
     
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  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So the only way your point is stupid is if someone is butthurt?

    Understand what people are taking exception to here.........its that you think listing QBs from X class that have made the playoffs mean something about each QBs ability.

    The reason its stupid and you got the responses you did is because football is a team sport and because you included guys who are backups and haven't played, further proving how stupid your point was.

    The only one acting butthurt....is you.
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Wilson's average QB rating in those games is 95.9, and his average YPA is 7.6.
     
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  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    See, this is fair. The other stuff about playoffs was just straight ignorant.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It depends. Are we evaluating the TEAM or are we evaluating the QUARTERBACK?

    Because if we're evaluating the quarterback then there are a lot more DIRECT and APPROPRIATE ways doing that:

    9/14 - defense gives up 30 points, (Wilson: 17 of 25, 202 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 2 Sack, 2 Scramble for 18 yards, no runs)
    10/12 - defense gives up 30 points, (Wilson: 14 of 28, 126 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 2 Sack, 1 Scramble for 3 yards, 1 run for 9 yards & 1 TD)
    10/19 - defense gives up 28 points, (Wilson: 23 of 36, 313 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 3 Sack, 5 Scramble for 75 yards, 2 run for 31 yards)
    11/2 - defense gives up 24 points, (Wilson: 17 of 35, 179 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 1 Sack, 2 Scramble for 22 yards, 3 runs for 12 yards)
    11/16 - defense gives up 24 points, (Wilson: 20 of 32, 178 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 2 Sack, 6 Scramble for 52 yards, 2 runs for 19 yards)
    Total - Wilson: 91 of 156, 998 yards, 6 TD, 1 INT, 10 Sack, 16 Scramble for 170 yards, 8 runs for 71 yards and 1 TD

    Worth noting that the arbitrary setting of the qualifier at >20 points seems a bit conspicuous since the Seahawks won a game where they allowed exactly 20 points on defense.

    But either way we're talking about pretty good performance. We're talking about efficient quarterback play, and the Seattle offense scoring 24 points per game in those 5 games. Could the Seattle offense have been more potent? Sure. But it's pretty shady to sit here and pretend that is on the quarterback considering the offensive line protecting him and the UDFA receivers "catching" (using the term loosely) passes from the quarterback. I'm not just shooting that insult out of nowhere, the receivers dropped 9 passes in those games which is a ridiculous drop rate.

    What continues to perplex me is how much people really need to reach in order to find these very creative, very vague, very indirect methods of questioning Russell Wilson. I would prefer to be more direct. I would prefer to look directly at Wilson's play in order to determine what kind of player he is...rather than pointing toward some vague phenomenon and then trying to imply something with subtext.
     
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  37. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Well, and even when you go that route, it isn't supported objectively, because the necessary covariation isn't there.
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Look at you with the stats wizardry. Gonna need your help passing my CFA Level II exam in June.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's efficient, but not prolific. People want prolificness out of their QBs. 6 passing TDs through those 5 games. Plus a rushing TD. Extrapolating that out he's a 18-20 TD guy a year, which if you look at him this season, he's an 18-20 TD kinda of guy. It's a step down from his previous 2 years where he did throw for 26 TDs (losing your two playmaking WRs hurts).

    If the Seahawks lose Lynch and can't replace him, and their defense softens up, can he become that 35-40 TD guy? That is the question. I think he has it in him, but others question it. In those losses they needed him to do more, and he didn't. So it's a very real question to be honest.

    He's had 4 games last year with 0 passing TDs. That's 1/4 of your season. They won 3 of those 4, which is remarkable. So yeah the question remains, can he do more. Some believe he can, some believe he can't. Until he does though, neither side is right, yet.
     
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  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think it's a huge fallacy though to sit here and pretend we have not seen him in situations where he his asked to do more. We absolutely have seen that. Many times. So to sit here and pretend that we just don't know what he's going to do in X situation because he's never been put in that situation is just plain wrong. No two ways about it.
     
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