1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ndamukong Suh / Albert Hayneworth: A Comparison

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MonstBlitz, Mar 8, 2015.

  1. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Suh is referred to as a Hall of Fame kind of player. I dont remember Haynesworth being that
     
  2. JimToss

    JimToss Thank You Chad Pennington

    2,938
    2,410
    113
    Oct 11, 2009
    Delaware
    For a while I was against this signing due to cap hit reasons, then I took a couple of things into consideration:
    1) He is a true Hall of Fame player.
    2) Id rather have one truly great player than 2 mediocre. Likely Odrick will get 7-8mil. I'd rather pay for Suh.
    3) It strains our cap enough that it deters us from those expensive middle of the road signings. ellerbe, wheeler, finnegan. If players suck I prefer we pay them less.
    4) Damn he wrecks an offensive line!
    5) I do not think he will bust.
    6) They have to choose him over Philbin when Suh stomps on this droopy face.
     
    resnor, Ohio Fanatic and Bumrush like this.
  3. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

    23,327
    35,934
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Suh is probably thinking about his future after football.He has a degree in Construction .Ross made his fortune in real estate .South Florida is a good place to be in that business.
    He will replace LeBron James as the most famous athlete in the area and he will be idolized after football in this area.There is a lot of synergy in that combination.He wont dissapoint IMO.

    Only injury or a suspension can affect that .That is a concern.
     
  4. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    MikeHoncho likes this.
  5. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Aye the suspension is my only concern. Wasn't he doing a lot better last year, save for that step-back on somebody (Rodgers I think)?
     
    CrunchTime likes this.
  6. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

    29,473
    34,332
    113
    Nov 25, 2007

    Hell yeah to point 3!! Awesome observation. This may also force Philbin to play young talent, which he and the rest of the coaching staff seem to be averse to.

    I'd rather let rookies like Fede, McCain and Aikens see the field than more FA duds. When Philbin was forced to play guys like Jenkins and Jamar Taylor, they seemed to have done better than the scrap heaps we picked up in FA.
     
    MikeHoncho and JimToss like this.
  7. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    You should read what Warren Buffet has to say about Suh. He graduated from college with a very tough engineering degree.

    If you have any doubts about whether or not Suh is worth it though...read this article. Its not about sacks...tackles...its about Suh and Im pretty sure you will see why the Suh Haynesworth comparison is so wrong

    http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11431870/ndamukong-suh-nfl-great-unknown


    HE LIKES TO surprise people, finding immense enjoyment in debunking the notion that he's a thickheaded hit man. On several occasions, people in Suh's camp make a point of saying that he didn't get his degree in basket weaving or, say, communications. He matriculated through a rigorous engineering program.
    Hickey tells Warren Buffett's people I'm doing a story on Suh, and one morning the billionaire calls. "Have you talked with him?" Buffett asks me. "You wouldn't guess he was a football player except for his size, would you? He does not seem like a guy who's going to knock somebody on his rear end."
    Buffett calls Suh a friend. The first time they officially met, Suh was so eager to make a strong impression that he asked Hickey to get him to the appointment 45 minutes early. When they arrived with 25 minutes to spare, Suh was angry. He didn't think it was respectful enough.


    He lacks pretention, Buffett says. They had plans to meet for lunch in late August in Omaha. Maybe they'll get a burger and a malt, says Buffett, who often eats at a drive-thru joint.
    "He's got a lot of good qualities," Buffett says. "He is thinking ahead. LeBron's always thought ahead. There's some that really get quite mature about that very early, and others, they have wealth and fame at such an early age that they don't think much about 10 or 20 years down the road. But Ndamukong does."
    William Gerber, CFO of TD Ameritrade, is also a friend of Suh's. So is Junior Bridgeman, a former NBA player who owns and operates almost 200 Wendy's franchises. Suh met Bridgeman at the Kentucky Derby, and they've become fast friends. "If he's not successful [post-NFL]," Bridgeman says, "I'll be shocked."
    Every person in Suh's circle has a purpose. Suh wants someday to be known as one of the most successful ex-athletes in the history of ex-athletes, and these guys can help. He studies them and picks them apart to see how they work. He doesn't necessarily want to know how great Bridgeman's company is doing now. He wanted to know what it took to get there.
    It is in this environment, among the über*successful, that Suh seems most comfortable. He's surrounded by people who don't want anything from him.



    This is what people say about Haynesworth:


    “Every year, every team, someone signs a big contract and then they turn into a piece of dump,” Cooley said, via the Dan Steinberg of the Washington Post.
    Asked whether the Arenas deal (six years, $111 million guaranteed) was worse than the one the Redskins gave Haynesworth in 2009 (seven years, $100 million total), Cooley was effusive. Keep in mind, Arenas malingered, brought a gun into the locker room and was suspended by the NBA for 50 games.
    “No question, the Haynesworth contract,” Cooley said. “Because he was trying to get released by the team. His goal was to come here, make a large signing bonus, and then get released and not have to do any of the work. He didn’t care about the back end of that contract, he didn’t care about making all of that money. His idea was, you paid me for what I did in the past, and my goal is to be released as soon as possible and basically take $33 million from you for absolutely nothing. . . .
    “His goal from the get-go was to take that money. He also indicated to many players on the team that his new goal was to get released as soon as possible, sign another maybe $10, 12 million contract — that’s verbatim — go somewhere, play for a year and probably get released, and keep that money too. I mean, if it was a player on this team currently, I would not discuss this on the air. But being the player that he was, and the guy that he was around here, this was open [knowledge] among many players in this locker room: that his goal was basically to take money.
    “And it’s really unfortunate when that happens. I guess his point to it, or his excuse for it, was well, the leagues steal from all you guys, the leagues won’t pay you your salaries, they won’t give you your money, so I’m gonna get what’s right from them.”

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/29/cooley-describes-haynesworth-as-awful-human-being/
     
    jw3102, Aqua4Ever04, resnor and 6 others like this.
  8. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

    32,073
    22,828
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Concord, MA
    You've got 2 years likely with Wake playing at this level, probably 1 or 2 years for Grimes as well. If Tannehill keep developing (lets' stay optimistic on this) then he will be signing a 18 million/year contract that will be hitting our salary cap in 2 years (factoring in inflation). We need to make a push for the playoffs this year with a hope that we can make a serious run in 2016-2017. It's risky because in years 4-6 we could fall back down to mediocrity due to losing some more FA, but you have to make a push.

    What this franchise was doing was incremental progress at best. We needed a big change. If it doesn't work, we'll still be mediocre. If it pans out, we'll love this signing.
     
  9. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Big things are needed to yank us out of the pits. Here Miami was given a golden opportunity to get a player who CAN do that. I didnt say will. But, the likely hood that he will is high enough you cant let this opportunity go by. You cant.
     
  10. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

    13,057
    8,875
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Hamilton, Ontario Canada
  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Haynesworth did not have the same pedigree as Suh. He was a guy that was good for most of his career, then had a really great season. Suh has consistently been great since college.
     
    Phins Up Wins Up and vt_dolfan like this.
  12. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL
    Wouldnt say "good" for most of his career, would say, he showed flashes of being good and then had 1 dominate year.
     
  13. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

    2,000
    826
    113
    Oct 31, 2008
    palm beach county fl
    It's one of those deals where it has to work or everything and everyone get's blown up if it don't.
    Then Ross will be the true survivor.
     
  14. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

    8,560
    4,133
    113
    May 9, 2008
    Based on the rumors, 60 million in the first three years (plus 60 guaranteed overall) makes this contract an albatross. I love that we have a dominant force in Suh, but there's no way this contract looks anything less than insane. Having said that, the comparison's to Haynesworth are ridiculous. Albert Haynesworth was notoriously lazy until his contract year. His motor was inconsistent and always had attitude problems. That isn't a comparable description when talking about Suh. He's a dirty mother****er to be sure, but he competes every down.
     
    the 23rd, Piston Honda and 77FinFan like this.
  15. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    excellent! excellent! excellent!
     
  16. NolePhin15

    NolePhin15 Well-Known Member

    965
    520
    93
    Dec 15, 2010
    Jupiter
    [​IMG]
     
    resnor likes this.
  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    It fits his narrative.
     
  18. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    Stafford and Megatron make a ton of money, paying Suh would've meant tying up close to 50-60 million on 3 players. They gambled on Suh not being able to command the type of contract he got and lost. We gambled on paying him, results TBD.
     
  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    May all be true. That doesn't change the fact that Detroit tried/is trying to re-sign him
     
  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    Yes, he was considered lazy in Tenn. He was notorious for dominating one play and taking the next +3 off and his practice habits were horrid. Then he signed the big deal and got far worse. He had the feel of a vet who had cashed in and was ready to retire rather than somebody who had any drive to win. Practice again became an issue even before the first game. Then he claimed he didn't fit the system. It was a nightmare signing from the get go. The only comparisons are that both could play at a dominant level and they got big deals. But one is young and motivated (if anything some would say too intense). That makes a world of difference. One can question the contract in the context of team building strategy, but the comparison between Suh and AH is bunk.
     
    resnor likes this.
  21. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

    18,217
    23,524
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    If I'm not mistaken, the first year of the Reggie white deal was before there was a salary cap and the deal was heavily front-loaded in that first year. White only made like $2-3M per year once there was a salary cap in place, which was about 8% of the total cap. The Suh deal will be more like 15% of the Dolphins' cap.
     
  22. Not So Fast

    Not So Fast Well-Known Member

    1,399
    1,091
    113
    Dec 31, 2012
    Lake Worth, FL
    I agree that this deal has huge backfire potential, but if it works out, all Dolphin fans will be very happy.
     
  23. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,843
    10,283
    113
    Dec 18, 2007
    Columbia, South Carolina
    Haynesworth couldn't even pass conditioning drills when he got to Washington. Told them he was too good to work on drills and stuff like practice. Suh has some issues but he has never been accused of not working. He also is trending up. It was obvious that Haynesworth was a contract year player and was going to take the money and run, I don't see Suh being that way. I think he cares and wants to be a HOFer.
     
  24. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    They both got big contracts. They both play tackle.

    They're both black.

    Yep. That's all I got.
     
    Alumni2k11, Section126 and resnor like this.
  25. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

    7,929
    4,404
    113
    Feb 10, 2010
    Palm Bay Florida
    Yeah, I think Suh and Haynesworth only compare in the most superficial of ways, They are/were D Tackles and both stomped on a couple of people. Beyond that not really much to compare.

    The only thing that bothers me is what we have to pay to get him and how crippling that will be for us in the salary cap.

    There is little doubt that he will be major impact player for us. Makes me salivate a little at the thought of Wake, Suh, Mitchell and Vernon getting after opposing QB's. Happiest guy in the world has to be Cameron Wake!
     
  26. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

    47,525
    72,483
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Miami, Florida
    Yes.
     
  27. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii

    It was reported that the Lions offered him $17 million a year to resign with them. They really couldn't offer anymore because they already have Stafford and Megatron with huge contracts.

    They weren't in a situation where they could franchise him because they would have had to pay him well over $20 million dollars for the 2015 season.

    The fact is the Lions management and the players on the Lions badly wanted him back in Detroit next year and in the future years but they just got outbid for his services by the Dolphins.

    Only time will tell if he is worth all the money he is scheduled to make with the Dolphins. As far as the comparison you make between Haynesworth and Suh.

    While you make a few valid comparisons. I remember hearing after Haynesworth signed with the Redskins and before he ever played a game that for him it was all about the money. Haynesworth had a great season in his contract year with the Titans, but his play was up and down in the years leading up to his final year in Tennessee. He showed signs during those years of being lazy at times and taking plays off. This was also the rap against him when he was in college. He got his money, lost his desire and proved who he really is.

    Suh on the otherhand has never been a player accused of taking plays off. He has never missed a game in his five years in the NFL, except for the two games he was suspended. While I believe he wants to make as much money as he can during his career in the NFL, just as every player does.

    There is nothing he has ever shown on the field which leads me to believe he will suddenly turn into another Haynesworth. Haynesworth was shown to be a money grabbing bum, but I expect Suh to continue to show that he is one of the best defensive tackles in the history of the NFL when he arrives in Miami.

    He certainly can't take this team to the playoffs all by himself. Yet of all the players on the roster, he is the one player I have no doubt will give 100% effort on every play he is in the game.
     
  28. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    I think it might be high time to revisit this. Was just listening to some analysis that Kevin Coyle is essentially doing the same exact thing with Suh that the Redskins did with Haynesworth. Switching him from 1 gap to 2 gap. Here was Albert's comment for Suh when this signing was imminent once again -

    But I'm sure people will continue to tell me how wrong I am...

    I'm not going to try and say Suh is going to be as big as bust as Haynesworth was. There will be plenty of time for him to redeem his career in Miami. The contract will force that issue. But right now these coaches have completely ignored the cautionary tale that was Albert Haynesworth.
     
  29. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,634
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Ndamukong Suh isn't playing 2-gap to any significant degree. It's completely barking up the wrong tree.

    He's sometimes playing a 2-technique position, but he did that to excellent effect in Detroit.
     
  30. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    I don't know enough to comment one way or the other, I'm just reporting someone else's analysis. It was a SI report I think.
     
  31. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

    3,087
    2,038
    113
    Jul 27, 2013
    Suh is playing a lot of 1 and 2 techs here, but in Detroit he played mostly 3 tech.

    Here's where the massive stupidity is, they brought in a pass rushing DT to stop the run.
     
  32. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

    3,163
    2,325
    113
    Sep 13, 2011
    I think that some of us are terrified that this was a bad signing, but I really wouldn't worry about it. Suh is here for the duration, things are going to change rather soon for us. A new coaching staff will be here soon. I fully expect us to make a run at Jim Schwartz for Defensive coordinator in the offseason. It would make the most sense considering his history with Suh.

    As for comparing it to Haynesworth and that situation. Well....Washington is a mess, they have been ever since 2000. They can't develop prospects, they stunt the growth of the ones that are talented, and every major free agent signing from Dana Stubblefield, to Dion Sanders, to Albert Haynesworth have been colossal failures. Even Jason Taylor going there was bad. I know it sounds eerily similar to what this organization does, but the difference is we aren't just throwing darts and hoping for a hit the way they have. There was a plan in place here, it didn't work, we knew/know Philbin and Coyle are dead men walking. Like I said, change is coming, only this time I think we'll have a quicker turnaround.
     
  33. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,634
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    It was Osi Umenyiora I believe, and it's kind of a strange thing from him.

    The difference between a 2i technique and a 2-gap player can be kind of smaller than you'd think. I think he was referring to people being put in more two-gap type positioning, but who knows.

    I think the bigger thing in that report is what they're doing with Cameron Wake.
     
  34. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,634
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    [​IMG]

    Suh wasn't a 3-technique as much as he was the "left" DT. He would switch depending on the formation and strength calls.
     
    MonstBlitz likes this.
  35. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    I'm trying to find it, but can't now, but it definitely wasn't Osi. It was SI.com and it was an unrelated video to the story I had clicked on. It seemed more like a fan than employed analysis but it sounded like he knew what he was talking about, but that definitely doesn't mean he does.
     
  36. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Not trying to pick on anybody but check this out and tell me what y'all are thinking now:


     
    MonstBlitz likes this.
  37. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    I knew there was at least one person who agreed with me way back when. :lol: We can argue the details all we want, but the overall concern was whether or not the Suh signing would produce results worthy of the contract. And to this point - absolutely not.
     
    finsfandan likes this.
  38. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

    3,087
    2,038
    113
    Jul 27, 2013
    What I meant was that he rushed the passer more, which is why he played the 3 more, which is shown in this diagram that he played the 3 more than any other spot, and here he isn't playing the 3 as much.

    He played the 2 and 3 in Detroit a ton, and here he is playing the 1 and 2, they are clearly lining him up as a run defender when his strength is pass rusher, but they told us this when they signed him, they signed him to shore up the run, he's never been a good run defender because he isn't a space eater, but they told us that he was going to shore up the run D.

    They should've signed Potroast if they wanted to stop the run.
     
  39. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Well-Known Member

    756
    443
    63
    Apr 26, 2012
    It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. The D-Line is actually the worst part of the team. It was supposed to be the best part of the team.

    How can a unit that was so good a year ago be the worst in the league a year later. Has to be the coaching staff.
     
  40. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

    11,817
    10,321
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Rockledge, FL
    Watching Sportscenter right now and there was a very very intriguing analysis of Suh's performance in Miami.

    While In Detroit, Suh was a wrecking machine. He wreaked havoc on offensive lines and on offenses in general, while since his arrival in Miami, his performance hasn't been to the caliber as it was in Detroit. The reason is yet another justification for letting Coyle go as well.

    When you sign a player like Suh, you expect him to do the same thing for your team that he did in Detroit. Well, in order for Suh to replicate what he did in Detroit, your defensive scheme has to replicate the defensive scheme in Detroit. This isn't what's happened in Miami. Suh is indeed doing exactly what he was signed to do im Miami...in the scheme of the Coyle defense...be a stop gap, take on double teams, free up the linebacking corps. He's doing that, but is that what you really wanted? Is that Suh's TRUE talents?

    To coin Liam Neeson's role as Zeus in Clash of the Titans, "Release the Kracken"...don't try and control Suh...UNLEASH him! Let him be the wrecking machine that he is; let him wreak havoc on offenses in the nature that is Suh.

    Hopefully Dan Campbell will tell Coyle this; will get Coyle to adapt his defense to the players he has. If he does, you're going to see the beast we signed. If not, we're going to have the WORST defense in the league and Coyle's day in Miami are numbered.

    One of the things that made Don Shula such a phenomenal head coach was he knew how to adapt his schemes to the players he had on his roster. Miami didn't draft Marino to sit in the back field and hand the ball off, which was always Shula's MO. He adapted to the talent on his squad. Suh isn't being allowed to play to his strengths. Adapt and overcome Coyle and you'll be adapting to a new job
     
    MonstBlitz and finsfandan like this.

Share This Page