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Dan Marino best QB ever arguement...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by CashInFist, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Back in Miami
    :sidelol:
     
  2. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Yeeeesh..... Hearing the name Olivadotti still makes me ill.
    What a train wreck.
     
  3. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Brady would not be the same QB without Belichick bottom line.
    I'm not saying he's a bad QB but he is in no way a guy that MAKES a system.
    Belichick has become a master at game planning and setting up his players in the best possible positions to succeed.
     
  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    8 game swing is huge. Either way, you can't say 2-14 is a good team.
     
  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I do not for one minute believe that the Colts team was a legitimate 2 win team.
     
  6. Pats1960

    Pats1960 New Member

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    I hope you guys don't mind an observation from a Pats fan who's old enough to have seen every QB play since Unitas. I couldn't resist.

    Dan Marino was a much better QB than Peyton Manning. He had the quickest release with accyracy that I can remember. If Marino had the weapons that Manning has had, he would have retired with a few rings. Marino also didn't throw the stupid passes that Peyton does in crunch time. I honestly don't know how anyone can compare them if they saw both play.

    To be truthful, I always liked Johnny U the most. There was just something about the way he threw that I liked a lot. He was also as tough as nails.

    And of course there's Montana. He was great too.

    But then, along came this kid Brady, the record breaking QB with the big brain that could handle all of the complex defenses of today. But then again, he has had a much better set of rules to work with than all the others.

    Tough call but I'm going to stick with Brady.
     
  7. Pats1960

    Pats1960 New Member

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    Tom Brady has the highest winning % of all time regular season and playoffs, and doesn't gag in crunch time like P61D Manning.

    I can't believe that there are still people around who want to try and claim superiority for Peyton Manning. His little brother Eli is a hell of a lot better in the playoffs.

    In any top ten list of clutch QBs, P61D isn't even mentioned. There's a reason for that.
     
  8. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The biggest crock of ... is to say Tom Brady is a system QB. I've heard it all now.

    Dan was a better passer than Tom Brady. Best passer of all time probably. He is not a better QB than Brady. Those are the cold hard facts. Belichick has implemented several different styles of offense, infinite number of game plans, and Tom executes each and every single one. How can you call someone a system QB when the system changes on the whim of the coach? Winning on bad teams how about the AFCCG with Reche Caldwell as your #1 receiver? How about a record setting run thankfully derailed by a once in a lifetime catch? Draft two TE's and your whole system changes again. One TE murders a guy and the system has to be tweaked yet again. Against the Ravens their run game was shut down so they go pass only and again, Tom kills it.

    Tom has put his team in position to win 6 superbowls, and won 4 of them, with the two losses in the last few minutes. I pray for the day he retires but take off the homer glasses and any such questions, which were silly to begin with, were answered in the last super bowl.
     
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  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Wins are really a team stat, so I don't attribute them heavily to Brady alone. I think wins do factor into HoF consideration. Peyton has a bad reputation for being clutch and lights out in the regular season, but not post season.
     
  10. Pats1960

    Pats1960 New Member

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    Totally agree.

    Good pals Archie Manning and Oliver Luck plotted the whole thing with Indy. P61D left and allowed Andrew Luck to take over. There was also a connection between someone at Stanford and Indy. I forget exactly what the connection was. Manning leaves and they don't even try to get a QB. Then they lose every game (14 to be exact) until they have the top pick sewn up. They win their last two to make it look good and the next year that same 2 win team went 11-5 with rookie QB Andrew Luck. It was no coincidence.
     
  11. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I'm glad I have that much power over a Pats fan. ;) Welcome to the board.

    Brady is this generations version of Troy Aikman. He's smart, has a great work ethic, but he also cheats. As has been mentioned, the Pats system is very favorable for an unathletic, mediocre armed, smart QB such as Brady. He throws the ball great 5-10 yards from the line of scrimmage, but he consistently ranks in the lower half of the league when it comes to any other throws. He doesn't squeeze the ball into windows. (Yes, he has done that from time to time) Brady has never carried his team. Ever. He wilts in the face of a good rush. Always. The true greats of the game always did the former and rarely did the latter.

    Now, is he a HoF QB? Sure, but so are Bradshaw, Namath, and Blanda. In fact, most of the modern era QB's are not considered in the GOAT argument. I remember when the same things were being said about Aikman. It was because he was the current "super star" Super Bowl winning QB.

    IMO, I don't have Brady in my top 10 of all time greats.
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That argument is great and all, except when Brady was given good-great talent at receiver, he set TD records. It's not his fault that he's given **** to work with so often.
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Which is just wrong because his stats are nearly identical to Brady's in the post season.
     
  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Moss made Culpepper an All-Pro. Moss made Brady. Up until Moss came along Brady's average season was about 3500 yds, 25 TD's and 12-14 INT's.

    Also, Brady has had to play with a defense ranked lower than 10th three times in his career. Do you understand how much that has helped him? Throw in some cheating and BAM..multiple Superbowls.
     
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  15. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    So much this.
     
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    No way Dan was a better QB than Manning. Marino was the best passer in history. He's not the best QB ever though. And this is coming from maybe the greatest Marino homer of all time.

    How do you explain the fact that Manning and Brady have nearly identical stats in the post season/
     
  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I wouldn't call it much better. an 89 QBR with the Pats compared to a 92 with KC.

    Also, no one has mentioned that Cassell hadn't started a game at QB since high school when he took over the Pats and led them to 11 wins.

    That cheating is special...
     
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, he averaged around 25/12'''with receivers that largely were out of the league after they left NE. I'm not sure what you're arguing. Givens? Branch? Troy Brown? I mean, who did he have at receiver that was good?

    Yes, I do understand how much defense helps. That's why I said the wins shouldn't be credited to him as much as they are. However, when Brady has weapons, he's as good as anyone. Problem is, the NE front office just doesn't like to pay for those weapons, and they know Brady will make it work.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The bold. Were you in a coma in 2007 - 2011? Just wondering. Guess who also wilts in the face of a good rush. Peyton Manning.

    Seriously, you're trying to create some weird category for true greats that only fits whatever it is you want to fit. Brady is going down as the top 2 QB of all time. It is what it is.
     
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  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So you argue Brady is not a great because he wilts in the face of pressure, but you don't give Peyton the same criticism? When the Giants demolished him in 2007 he still put them in line for the win. The Seahawks ... well we all remember last year.

    Peyton is the most overrated QB of all time. He doesn't even win a super bowl in his career if Bob Sanders doesn't save his tail. 5 field goals against the Ravens?

    Barely eek a win against the Patriots, with Tom Brady throwing to Reche Caldwell, and Manning has Dallas Clark at his prime, Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison.
     
  21. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    15, 20 years from now, no he won't. He's the flavor-of-the-decade...and overrated.
     
  22. MAFishFan

    MAFishFan Team Tannehill

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    Marino is great. Montana is great. Brady is great. Manning is great. Does the ranking honestly matter? The Miami Dolphins ****ed Dan Marino. Marino didn't not win a Super Bowl because he sucked or choked. He never won a SB because of ****ty drafting and the hanging on to a ****ty D Coordinator. I'm lucky, I got to watch Marino from start to finish. Would I have loved to have seen Marino win a SB, of course. But I'll take what i saw over that span as opposed to what an Seahawks or Saints fan saw in that time frame. Geez.
     
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  23. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    "Joe Montana was the product of a system, Dan Marino is a system"

    -Bill Walsh
     
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  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Even the greats do poorly when they're getting hit constantly, and there is pressure in their face.
     
  25. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    so many interesting points, I just add my random considerations:

    the QBs pre-rules change are better, in my eyes, because you had to be tough. insanely tough. you were hit every freaking time, there is no way at the time you could play like they play now, because your precious qb would be dead in the first 15 minutes.... I have enormous admiration for the ability to remain focus, to keep playing, without mistakes, without fear, without panic, after some of the hits we can still watch on youtube.... think about Everett, the Rams QB...he was called a ***sy because, after a devastating beating by the 49ers D, he went down to the ground just before a hit.... he was clowned like a weak minded man for something that today EVERY QB is taught to do (and if you don't go down, you are criticized)... when you see the enormous effect that has on a Manning or a Brady (and any normal QB) when they are repeatedly hit from the D (happy feet, short throws, less precision) today, I think it is very very hard to make a comparison with an age when you knew they gonna reduce you to a pulp every time you dared to throw. IMO, The lenght of a QB career is clear evidence (you can play like manning almost without an arm, so many QB are playing well even after their 35th birthday)... in the past, no matter how good you were, usually for when you were 35 years old your body was done (maybe you still play, but you were nowhere near the younger version of yourself...now you have never ending career at the top, for Manning, Brees, Brady... they are good, of course, but it is also a product of how many less hits they take...)

    for this reason, I respect Brady much more for what he accomplished in the first half of his career than for what he did after, when the game has become more video-game like...

    I don't think Brady is a system QB, I just think that he plays in a team where they, rightly so, have a system for maximizing his talent (starting with a very good pass protection...every time I watch him standing there without any pressure for lilke an eternity I feel a mix of hate, envy and admiration!)

    Ellway maybe doesn't have the stats - maybe that is a product of playing with Reeves so many years (I read somewhere that his stats exploded precisely the year after Reeves was fired) - but I remember watching him in the playoff...he had something special about him, about leadership&4th quarter tough to misure in numbers, but very real to me... in my eyes he was a great QB..... not Marino-level, but a great one...you have also to add that he didn't play with much talent in the O, I believe (but I agree that the superbowl win, carried by Davis and the D, has totally changed the perception of him as a player)

    about Marino: I think he was just the best (with the caveat that, at some level, you have a pool of players and you can have a legit argument that everyone is the GOAT: Montana, Unitas, Marino, Brady), too much talent... in my eyes he was something like a lebron james talent, someone that seems born just to play this sport, having a mix of natural talents out of the world (pocket presence, marvelous feet, cannon arm, quick release, toughness, clutchness, precision, field vision, leadership ecc) for the position... what makes me sad is that he will be rememberd mainly for his stats, when his true greatness was as mnuch in stats as in the little things you cannnot explain or misure (anticipation, 6th sense in the pocket, garra ecc)


    sorry for the rambling and for the sucky sucky English
     
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  26. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Great video!

    Been watching QBs since Joe Namath in his prime (Btw, the one problem with that video is the denigration of Namath. His stats were not great in part b/c most QB stats were bad in his era - and b/c he was more arrogant in throwing into coverage than Marino. But, Namath was great in his prime - arguably the 2nd best pure passer of the football after Dan; and he called the offensive plays for the Jets win over the Colts - which was a masterful work of art).

    Marino was the greatest passer of all time by far. He had a couple of weak areas I wish he had worked on more (play-action, particularly), and sometimes forced it - but that was a product of pressure to score 40 points in some games to win.

    As the years have gone on, I think he is better than we realize (early on, he was the greatest QB ever and '84 is still as great as any season ever; but as time wore on he wore down - injuries did hurt - knees and achilles - that others did not get; he was hit much more than people realize - and than any QB gets hit these days - b/c his release was so great he'd get rid of the ball as the defender was right in his face).

    Marino was, imo, far tougher physically and mentally than any QB alive today. Maybe as tough as any in history. Watch what happens to Tom Brady's game when he gets hit a lot - it fades fast. Marino got hit hard nearly every game - just not sacked. He was a man's man on the field and I don't think there was a defender in the game who did not hold him in high regard b/c of how he played.

    I would add that I think Mark Clayton is borderline HOF and I think he'd be a deserving selection for it. If Clayton were around today he'd get tons of notoriety. Moore, Duper, Nathan and the TEs were solid as well.

    However, there was zero running game and the OL was terrible in run blocking (it's not just RB's that make the running game).

    And, that had to be one of the worst stretches of defense I've seen on any team. Even when they were an improved D (like 1990-91, 94), they had serious flaws. Even the '84 D was really very bad. And, just bad drafting. They had a couple of really good players drafted (Offerdahl, Webb-Sims duo) after Marino but for the most part it was horrible.
     
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  27. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    That would be easy enough to investigate objectively. Just take a look at whether the variation in performance, from year to year, among those sorts of QBs has anything significant to do with the variation in the pressure they experienced. I doubt it does, but I could be wrong of course.
     
  28. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    At about 1:25 in the video does he call the patron "Jack Asshat"?
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So, you want to look at yearly data to support something that would more than likely be seen on a play to play basis? It's silly, to argue that, because you don't seem to have stats to support it, that hitting and sacking QBs doesn't affect how they play. When a QB can't step into a throw, because the pressure is in his face, is he more likely to throw an off target pass? If a QB has to throw on the run, because he's been flushed from the pocket, is he more like to throw an off target pass? This stuff is simply common sense. Again, if pressure and hits don't matter, then why bother having an offensive line?
     
  30. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    The question isn't whether it matters, but how much it matters, in comparison to other variables. Surely you don't believe that how much time a QB has, or whether he's under pressure, is the only thing that determines his performance?
     
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No, I don't. I do think it's silly to act like pressure doesn't negatively affect a QBs performance. We've butted heads on this so often. It's the most frustrating thing that we talk about. LOL
     
  32. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Not true. Maybe since his neck surgeries, but never before has he shied away from a hit if he needed to make a throw. His "happy feet", to most people, make it seem like he's nervous. In reality it's his way of making sure he's in the right position to throw the ball anywhere on the field. Brady drops back, sits there for 10 seconds, and then throws it about 10 yards with no one in his face. If someone gets within his pocket, even if they aren't close enough to touch him, he wilts.
     
  33. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    How did this get turned into a Tannehill struggles with pressure thread? See what im saying? It's stupid to keep beating this drum
     
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  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You're truly insane. I made that comment in reference to someone commenting that Brady isn't great because pressure affects him. That's a ridiculous notion, and has zero to do with my opinion on Tannehill. Stop trying to twist my posts into bringing up Tannehill.
     
  35. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Sorry Lauren...:knucks:
     
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  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Back to the baiting and trolling I see.
     
  37. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I tried finding the source of this quote, but it's no where to be found. Help?
     

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