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2015 Passing Game

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by keithjackson, May 7, 2015.

  1. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    They are there...I have consistently called Ryan a top 10-12 QB yet some are quick to annoint me a "Tanny hater" it's strange. DJ catches alot of flack aswell and i think he rates Ryan around the same area and he's constantly grilled aswell.
     
  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Interesting.. I'm really high on Tannehill, but a decent part of it is potential because he's not quite there yet if you take the 2014 version. I'd also put him at around #10. Hopefully, he'll clearly be 5-10 at the end of 2015.
     
  3. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Some of us want a Top 3 QB (ME included). Some of us are willing to settle for average. That's what I got out of this thread anyway.

    EDIT: And some here won't allow ANY criticism of Ryan Tannehill, for whatsoever reason. EVER...LOL
     
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  4. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I think he's certainly above average, but top 3 is a ways away...maybe never. I can live with top 5.

    Agree 100% with bolded.
     
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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, it's not the criticisms. It's the conclusions that some draw from the criticisms.
     
  6. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I think most of us would and should be satisfied with a top 15 QB. Teams have won Super Bowls with those types of QBs.

    Marino couldn't do it on his own. What does that tell you? We need a Super Bowl TEAM, not necessarily an elite QB.
     
  7. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Top-3 means Hall of Fame...so with 2 Miami QBs already there, I think it'll be a long time until Miami gets another one of those. It's just ridiculously unlikely to happen statistically. If you expect that kind of performance you should be prepared to maybe wait another 20-30 years. Going from Griese to Marino so quickly clearly spoiled a lot of Miami fans but I digress.


    People can frame their analysis of RT17 anyway they want and it'll wind up the same. I would say that everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing just in different ways. We all think RT17 is decent. We all wish he was better. We all hope he continues to progress. We all doubt he'll ever be a guy that lifts the team onto his back with elite-level performances.

    He's not elite. He has never looked like he can be elite. I don't know why people are scared to say that as though somehow it makes him a failure. Some idiots like to antagonize other fans by saying their "settling for mediocrity." F that. Until I'm in control, all I can do is stare at my TV and analyze like all of you so if I'm settling, you're settling. At least I'm not calling for 1st round QBs every year. That's dumb. When I'm in control it'll be on me. Until then, turn around and go take your frustrations out on someone else kids.

    Based on how touchy and sensitive most Miami fans are about their QB, I'd have to guess that (A) they're very insecure about their current guy and (B) they must be watching too many ESPN "debates" on whether Brady or Peyton is better. RT17 had limited upside coming out of college and was very raw as a 1st round prospect. He has already surpassed the expectations of at least half the people who graded him. He's probably about as effective as any QB Miami has had since Marino and he's clearly better than the majority of them but beating out Chad Henne shouldn't mean anything.

    I honestly don't see the point in sitting around arguing semantics about how many sacks he takes. Clearly the O-line isn't as good as in NE but it's clearly as talented as most out there. If RT17 is taking a lot of hits, it's definitely something to do with him and that's all you can say. I just hope the guy continues to avoid getting injured.



    So we all know damn well, he's not going to be top-3, because that's hall of fame (Brady, Peyton, Luck). He's not going to be top-5 because that would imply he's killing the league statistically which he will never do (Brees, Rodgers).

    Just to state the obvious here, RT17 has yet to put the team on his back and win meaningful games so there's no basis to say he's even as good as Eli or Flacco or Wilson or Roethlisberger who may not put up gawdy stats but have all won Super Bowls without 10 years experience.

    Even if RT17 manages to prove he's better than Romo, Cam, Dalton, Ryan, Stafford, etc he's still battling for the 10th or 11th best QB in the league and I definitely don't see him making the kind of Play-off runs that the Eli, Flacco, Wilson or Roethlisberger have. I'm not sure about Wilson, but Eli, Flacco and Roethlisberger have played some of their best games in the Play-offs and Wilson sure hasn't been bad.

    If I had to be honest, I'd say that Romo and Cam are both more accomplished at this point, no offense to RT17. I think I trust Matt Ryan on a good team more than I do Ryan Tannehill. Again, that's just giving my non-homer opinion.

    I'd say that if Tannehill repeats in 2014 what he did in 2015, he'll be a top-15 QB but at his best I don't see him getting into the top-10 because he's always going to need a good defense and a bunch of weapons and he's definitely not going to do much to help his O-line and in my view he's never going to win a Super Bowl and do the things that Flacco, Eli and Roethlisberger have. Not a chance. Hell, Miami's O-line was better than Indy's last year and when I watched Indy play I didn't for a second think Indy had a problem with their pass protection.

    To be fair, I think Miami is going to suck at pass protection until the get a QB that makes it look good. I'm convinced it's 90% the QB when I look around the league. Every good QB seems to have plenty of time to operate the offense and put up great stats unless their O-line is just decimated by injury.

    But over the last 10 years I've had to consistently listen to Miami fans complain about O-line talent and blame their bad offenses on their big guys up front. Yeah, I got news for you...it's your QBs. They have sucked. It ain't the coach, it ain't the OC and it damn sure ain't the freakin' guards.

    Just call it what it is...RT is a top-15 guy. Every one of us is happy to watch that over the short-term considering the garbage that's been put on the field. Top-15 is a freakin' improvement.

    But don't kid yourself. He's mid-level, 2nd-tier kind of stuff.
     
  8. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Making the playoffs erases any criticism of Tannehill.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I disagree with most everything in that wall of text, Greg.
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    you want the passing game to improve then the qb needs to threaten the defense when they turn their backs to him..you make them defend the entire field, you make them think that if they just focus on the coverage the QB could cut them, you make them watch the Qb at all times, you make them worry, this will help your receivers gain separation.
     
  11. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't hurt would it?
     
  12. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    I'm just kinda confused by it (and I read it all). It's just like he is back and forth so much. Wishy washy like a politician. lol
     
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  13. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Running more effectively will def help the pass game but I'd much rather the RBs handle that.
     
  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think the (very) short version of Greg's post is:

    "Tannehill's average, and his ceiling is below top 10"
     
  15. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Agree with everything but the part about never winning a Super Bowl or doing what some of those guys have done. If Tannehill continues to develop over the course of, let's say a 10 year career, I wouldn't put it past him to do some great things with a great team.

    It might not happen but it's not that unlikely. Lesser QBs have won Super Bowls.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    am I in the freakin twilight zone, wth is the matter with you all..do you even understand why players like wilson, luck, steve young, john elway, aaron rogers are doing it and why they do it?..apparently not with responses like that.

    you have an athletic qb who doesn't have the wherethall to run and threaten a defense...you and him need to wake the hell up and understand what it can do to elevate his overall game.
     
  17. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Huh?

    What you're saying is obvious to the point where it doesn't need to be said. The real discussion is about ways to mitigate the issue bc Tannehill is most likely not going to morph into an all time great. In that respect maybe you are somewhat in the twilight zone.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    When I watch tape of Kenny Stills I get pretty excited about what he shows. Believe it or not, Greg Jennings does that for me a bit as well. Jarvis Landry we've all seen make plays. DeVante Parker has the ability to make you leap out of your seat. Jordan Cameron is a fun toy to play around with as well.

    Four out of five of those guys are completely new. It will take time. But it should be fun once everything gels. Hopefully Miami are still in the hunt by the time that happens, and the defense hasn't fallen apart.
     
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  19. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hope those guys are still working out regularly w/ Tanny.
     
  20. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Pretty excited to see what Lazor will come up with now that he has all these new pieces that fit his system better. :yes:
     
  21. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Couldnt agree more.

    Lazor should feel like a kid in the candy store at this point. He now has the tools to attack defenses in virtually any way you can imagine.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    right... it doesn't need to be said my ***, lol, he doesn't run on his own accord, ever, and that point is ridiculous when you have this type of skill set, thats why I keep talking about it, in hope that he finally gets it after 3 years...

    im adamant about it because I know how it would change the game for him and the team..but nooooooooo, lets just brush off to the side like its really not that important...bs.
     
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  23. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    So would you want us to trade for kaepernick or pick up Russell Wilson if the seahwaks let him walk in free agency next year?
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes.

    Ryan is a nice person, I want him to be successful..but he's got to learn to play the game.
     
  25. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    And Colin Kaepernick knows how to play the game? LOL.
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lets not go there, so far CKap has had the better career..its a pretty open competition at this point..no reason to lol
     
  27. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have to agree with you there. Miami now has Devante Parker, Kenny Stills and Jarvis Landry which they can call their young core. They're got Greg Jennings as a veteran. Plus, they've got Jordan Cameron as their X-factor.

    As you said in another thread, if our offensive concerns center around the Guards at this point, and basically nothing else, that says something.

    To be fair, I just don't see Tannehill ever being a league-leader in TDs or yards regardless of how much talent is around because he's just not a gunslinger. Matthew Stafford is an average-level QB and still managed to throw for 5k yards but he's a guy who's going to take risks and certainly toss the ball towards Megatron every chance he gets. Ryan Tannehill doesn't play that way or at least I haven't seen him do it to this point so I think his upside is about 4,500 yards and 35 TDs.

    But that's awesome if you ask me. I'm not complaining about that at all. As others have pointed out, "lesser QBs have won Super Bowls" and that's true...technically. I mean, most of those had elite defenses but people love to take about the QBs for some reason, lol.

    I agree with you though. I think Miami's offense is set up to do well much like the Falcons a few years ago when Matt Ryan was so successful throwing to Roddy White, Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez.
     
  28. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Aw...do words hurt your widdle bwain?

    Haha...I"m just kidding, alright.


    You don't really "disagree" with me because we're watching the same dude play football and we're both fans. You're just putting a little higher probability on your fantasies. That's not really "disagree" if you ask me. And I'm not coming down on you for that. Maybe my words are a bit harsh for you, but I'm not trying to quote you. I'm trying to be just a little mean. I'm trying to kick some of the folks who say stuff that's unrealistic because it helps feed stupid, unrealistic expectations.

    That's why people get so excited when they see the slightest bit of progress. It's like, "RT's stats were up 5% this year...Super Bowl here we come!" ;)

    I love Ryan Tannehill and I love where the Dolphins are at. Please understand that. My point is that people get carried away and sound completely out-of-touch when they say "top-3" or "top-5."

    That's so unrealistic that it shouldn't even be considered as a possibility. Go look at Andrew Luck because that's what a top-3 QB looks like. It's not that bad of a knock on Tannehill to say he doesn't have that in him. In my view, it's just better to be fair and tell the truth instead of inflate and project these weird fantasies that aren't ever going to happen.

    Most of the Super Bowls in the last 10 years have been won by what we'd call "elite QB" performances. The mistake most fans make is that they infer it takes an "elite QB" to win a Super Bowl. That's wrong for several reasons.

    First, it doesn't mean that Eli Manning is permanently elite that he's won a Super Bowl. He played exceptionally well down the stretch in a couple of years which helped his team, who were perfectly built to defeat who they wound up facing in the Super Bowl...and they easily could have lost. Now, it's not fair for us to say Ryan Tannehill could never do that, but it certainly sounds foolish to project tons of fluke success (aka going all Eli en route to a Super Bowl) based on what Tannehill has shown.

    Second, the league favors aggressive offenses because the rules are so ridiculous. Look at all the favorable treatment Brady and Manning get. Look at how lop-sided the passing/running is in Green Bay and Indy. Look at how Stafford--a very average QB--put up 5,000 yards by continuously throwing and how that team has been rebuilt and taken to the Play-offs within a shorter tenure than Miami.


    I know this is hard to hear but Tannehill needs to play with more cajones. He needs to roll out there with the mentality that it's his show. It's not just Dan Marino. It's every great QB that played that way. I just have not seen that kind of confidence in RT17 to this point so I doubt it's there. Three years is a long time to start without ever really having showed complete command.

    What DJ is asking for is just part of that, but I largely agree with his basic premise. But again, that's just evidence that points to how every is saying the same thing in their own way.
     
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  29. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not pickin' on ya Res...honestly.

    I'm as ready as anyone here to watch this offense in 2015!
     
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  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've made my statements about his ability to lead known as well..he's learning how to become one, its been a slow process...he followed a great one in chad Pennington, its why he went to kentucky to learn from chad.
     
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  31. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Until the NFL caught up to the read option. You have to read defenses in the NFL, something Kaepernick has shown he cannot do without the R/O and forcing man-to-man coverage.
     
  32. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Total loss of credibility for anyone throwing Kaepernick out there as a means to knock Tannehill.
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the nfl has not caught up to the read option.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    would love to see some of your evals on Kaepernik when he was coming out of college, I'm sure you weren't part of my very small minority who said he would be successful despite what the pundits thought.. did you also think wilson was to small, did you think he would be special as he's been,?....were you wrong on both evals?, can you tell us what those evals were on both prospects?
     
  35. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I don't do college evals, not my thing.

    Present day I'd take Tannehilk over both of them, and with CKap it's not even close. Can we get back on topic or do you wanna have this same discussion for the 108th time?
     
  36. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    DJ and I don't always see eye to eye, but he's absolutely right on this. You can't take anything off the table. It's all about talent.

    There's not a single offense that can't work...it's all about personnel in a relative sense. It's perfectly fair to say that NFL-caliber defenses are on average much better are containing the read-option, but that's only because in the NFL, a QB isn't going to have the kind of athletic advantage he did in college.

    In theory, if that athletic advantage was preserved by some freaky-fast QB then the read-option would, and probably should, be integral to a team's playbook.

    Now, in all fairness, that kind of QB (and they do exist: RGII, Mariota, Kaepernick) has to complement his rushing yardage by doing an ample job in the pocket and by minimizing the number and severity of the hits he's taking. RGIII got hit too much and he's lost a lot of playing time. Kaepernick, hasn't been able to show he's mentally as sharp as his arm would indicate.

    Mariota seems like the kind of guy that has the intelligence and the athleticism to play the position but I'm not sure he's not going to hit the same wall that Kaepernick hit last year when it comes time to prove he can mentally operate 2-3 steps ahead of the defense.


    I'm not sure the Dolphins should make it a point to go out and get Tannehill regularly taking hits outside the pocket because I think they've been lucky to have kept him healthy to this point, but I 100% agree with the general point that if you can run as fast as Russel Wilson, RT17, RGIII, Andrew Luck, Colin Kaepernick, Marcus Mariota, etc...

    ...then you should damn well be helping your team out from time to time by running.

    Colin Kaepernick did take his team to the Super Bowl after all. That definitely says something. And again, Miami's offense hasn't made the Play-offs so let's not get too arrogant here and throw the baby out with the bath water.
     
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  37. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    The 2015 offense has me excited bc it's so complete. Complete to the point where OG has become the fault line for those in the mood for hedging their optimism.

    In 2014 the run game was very effective, the blocking especially. So much so that Miller, an average back, went for 1100 on 5.1 per carry and in Moreno's only full game he ripped the heart out of the eventual champs. Only a few teams could stop the run all year, the teams with the best DL units in the league. Mainly it was lack of depth that kept Lazor from steam rolling people in 2014.

    If Ajayi is legit problem solved. And the new WR corps is much better at getting open in the short to intermediate areas, after the catch and in the red zone. Tannehill won't even have to improve in order to look better. Looking at the schedule I see NY and Buffalo, maybe Houston, giving Lazor nightmares. Other than that I really think teams are going to struggle dealing with everything that Lazor will have at his disposal.
     
  38. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I think the league caught on to the read option almost immediately. The problem as you say is that there are a few QBs with the individual talent to make it work even if he D is prepared for it. That, and the fact that coordinators aren't inclined to risk giving up a a big pass play in order to prevent a 5-10 yard run.

    CKap has been properly exposed. Wilson has been exposed to a lesser extent but he has better improvisational skills and a great team that's successfully allowed him to play within his skill set and still win games. But talent aside, the read option is no more effective than any of the other offenses imo.
     
  39. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, PH, but it's still on the QB to improve if the team is going to be legit and not just be the kind of team that the Bengals are...always in the Play-offs, never in contention.

    If this team is going to take a real next step, Tannehill has to get even better than he was last year which I think involves him playing more aggressively, something he hasn't really be coached to do. He looked really good last year because he rarely attempted difficult throws. When he did, he sort of looked like the same old Tannehill. He wasn't that accurate down the field. He seemed to struggle not throwing into coverage.

    Maybe Devante Parker and Kenny Stills are going to completely fix that, but I doubt it.

    I'll admit, it's exciting though because I think the team has a chance to come out with some real confidence, knowing it's legit. Like you, I think the 2015 offense could really be earning some respect around the league by weeks 10-12.

    By the end of the season, they certainly should be doing some things that we haven't seen before.

    But again, the key phrase there is should be.
     
  40. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well....I'm disagreeing from a technical standpoint. The read-option is just lines on paper. It'll work if you have the talent relative to the competition.

    The read-option didn't come out in 2005, so I think it's stupid when people say that DCs have "caught onto it" as if it's some new thing that just got designed yesterday. Hell, running the ball was where the game started! The read option has been around for decades. DCs caught onto it 5 minutes after the first OC drew it up!

    It's been around for a long time. Yet, ever other year it seems some new QB comes into the league and runs it right into the Play-offs. The problem isn't with the read-option, which absolutely works...if a defense also has to cover the pass.

    The problem is when teams figure out you can't pass too well or when your back-up QB can't replicate what the starter was doing. The league just hasn't quite seen a talent at the level of someone who can run like Vick or Kaepernick but yet stay healthy doing it.

    Injuries are just as much the problem as the QBs passing ability.
     
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