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Winless Season Could Make Cameron The Big Loser!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin Fan In Cali, Nov 30, 2007.

  1. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL I never said he couldnt do no wrong, he has. Nor should he get a free pass. I just am not gfoing to take anyones opinion as fact, I am sorry. I respect your opinion, I do. You may end up being right, I havent reached the point yet where I have an opinion on whether Cam will be good or not, I just believe based on everything as a whole he deserves another year.
     
  2. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Jimmy Johnson as a rookie head coach can go 1-15 to start what would become a dynasty and be up on the ballot for the Hall of Fame next year, then I'm pretty sure Cameron going theoretically 0-16 would not prove a goddamned thing.
     
  3. jcthekid

    jcthekid New Member

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    Again, LOL? You like to laugh at other peoples opinions.
    I posted my opinion, based on facts. The opinion for Cam to stay is based on what he MIGHT do, not what he has done, because you have yourself proven that it's a short list.
    Lets just hope that we win against the Jets, and that whatever happens, we have a better 08. I will be Cams biggest fan if he comes back, because he's wearing aqua and orange, brotha!
     
  4. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Finally, some perspective.
     
  5. quelonio

    quelonio Season Ticket Holder

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    And therein lies why we should keep him... so long as he fires Armstrong and Capers. I feel like we must make Cameron a head coach, not just a overhyped OC... as long as he has a DC that looms as a co/HC there is no way the guy is going to be good. (especially when said DC sucks)
     
  6. hof13

    hof13 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Jimmy Johnson took a 3-13 team, traded away their franchise back, and took a young team to 1-15.

    Cameron has taken a 6-10 and will possible go 0-16. About the only coach that I can think of who rebounded after regressing at least 3 games is Belichick on his second stint - with New England.

    The other guys in recent memory:

    Kotite takes a Jets team that was 6-10 and goes 3-13 followed by 1-15 before getting fired.

    Gilbride in SD takes over an 8-8 team and goes 4-12 before getting fired after starting 2-4 the next year.

    Mornhinweg takes a 9-7 lions team and goes 2-14 followed by 3-13.

    Rhodes in Green Bay takes an 11-5 team and goes 8-8 for one and done.

    Flores takes a 7-9 team and goes 2-14, 6-10, and 6-10.

    Erickson takes 10-6 Seahawks team and goes 7-9 followed by 2-14.

    The last guy is Childress - who took Tice's 9-7 and went 6-10 the first year. The jury is still out on him.

    I'm fairly certain that Cameron is no Bilichick, so I'm not certain why we want to waste another year on him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  7. quelonio

    quelonio Season Ticket Holder

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    Nice stats... though you would have to point out in palmers case that he took over an expansion team. those where not consecutive seasons.
     
  8. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You are ignoring the reality of the situation.

    That 6-10 team was a castle built of sand, basically. That team won based on its 5th ranked defense. The defense has fallen apart since then, and you cannot attribute that to Cameron under any reasoning other than he is the dominant figurehead of the organization, which falls apart under not particularly strenous reasoning. That 6-10 team, with its 5th ranked defense now is 27th ranked.

    Cam Cameron has very little responsibility over the defensive side of the ball. The organization structure is such that Randy Mueller has ultimate responsibility for the personnel, and Dom Capers responsibility for the coaching/scheme. Both of those people he had no choice in hiring or retaining, and both he inherited for good or ill.

    That 5th ranked 2006 Defense was built on the pass rush, which was built on aging players which were either difficult to justify to retaining(Kevin Carter, Jeff Zgonina), or are appearing for all intents and purposes to have "lost a step"(Keith Traylor, Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas). Cam Cameron has no ultimate responsibility to identify need, replace, or retain those players.

    There's also been a tremendous amount of injuries to that 6-10 team. Worse than being injury prone, the team has been very unlucky with the nature of the injuries, where they'd often come at a single key postion. For example, losing 3 safeties for a season, or having 3 of your 4 "big" Ends injured, or being down to your 4th string runningback.
     
  9. hof13

    hof13 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Excellent point - I missed that when looking at the history. Forgot it was when Cleveland moved to Baltimore. Thanks for the correction!
     
  10. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    ...all Cam's fault... :blink:

    :wink2:
     
  11. 12man

    12man New Member

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    The problem about you coming to someone's job to throw beer at them, is that we do our jobs well enough to keep them. The Dolphins including Cam have done nothing to merit not getting the tomatoes thrown at them. LOL! :tongue_smilie:
     
  12. EdNorton

    EdNorton New Member

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    I don't know about firing Cam but its awfully ugly if they lose this week to the Jets. I expect the Dolphins to get more than 1 win considering what is left on the schedule. I've seen the way the Dolphins can lose winnable games so maybe 0-16 isn't a suprise:tantrum:

    I hope the Jets and Rams get enough wins to keep the Dolphins at #1 pick just not next Sunday in South FLA. I'd rather see Beck come out and start lighting it up even if it means falling to 2 or 3. I expect the defense to continue to get better, even on a dry field. I expect the running game to get better. I expect people to start making catches. I expect Ginn to get AT LEAST one more special teams TD.

    I hope the Dolphins get a couple wins and make this thread go away:) The worse things the fans can do has already happened, the front runner portion of the fans have walked away and Wayne's profits are adversely effected. No need to throw any bottles or tomatoes.
     
  13. Texphinphan

    Texphinphan Season Ticket Holder

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    Other than Jimmy, who are those many teams with 1st year coaches who began 1-15 and became winners in the second year. I really have NO IDEA.

    Thanks
    Texphinphan
     
  14. NJPHINFAN

    NJPHINFAN Season Ticket Holder

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    Hey dude. I have learned not to question your sources (Saban to Miami, Saban to Ballyama), but with the numerous boneheaded in game decisions, plus the fact that he let Beck sit at home against the 31st ranked Bills defense, but played him on the road vs. 14th ranked Philly tells me someone needs to at least ask him WTF?

    I am assuming this info comes from a certain beat writer. This is good news. To be 0-11 and still have the guys playing hard says something about the man.

    This is certainly better than being tied to the previous #9!Seriously, I really love what we have seen so far from JB. I hope Cam takes the gloves off and opens up the offense this week against the Jets.

    Boom, we have known each other for years via the net. I respect your knowledge of the game, but Cam absolutely has some of the blame for being 0-11.

    He has yet to show that he can overcome the rookie HC mistakes. His biggest yet is leaving Beck on the bench against Buffalo.

    I was firmly in the Cam camp when we started the search. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't wonder now, at 0-11, if he is up to the job.
     
  15. NJPHINFAN

    NJPHINFAN Season Ticket Holder

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    While I respect your opinion, I counter with, patience has gotten us in the position we are in right this very minute.
    I blame Wayne Huizenga.

    1) Jimmy Johnson: He wanted to retire, yet Wayne begged him back. Why? IMHO, it's because Wayne wanted stability. He found the HC he wanted and he didn't want to lose him. How'd that work out? Tell me Wayne didn't show patience with jimmah. The guy flipped daily between stay or go, yet Wayne stayed the course, when he should have been sending him to a shrink!

    2) Dave Wannstedt: If you look at Wanny's record, other than the partial year in which he quit, it looks real damn good. Playoffs the first two years, and lost out on tiebreakers his next two. We all know different though. They under-achieved with Wanny from his 2nd year forward. The fact that the Tropical Swarm defense never made it to the AFC Championship game is unbelievable.

    Still, Wayne stayed with him. He stayed with him when we didn't win the East in year 2. He stayed with him when we lost out on tiebreakers in years 3 and 4. He stayed with him why? Stability. He showed plenty of patience. Plenty.

    3) Nick Saban: JJ revisited. And why did he beg Nick to come here, and then beg him to stay? Stability. And what patience he showed, even though Saban's agent was accepting suitors, Wayne stayed the course and let the coach decide.

    There is my evidence that Wayne has a proven track record as a patient owner, too patient in many circumstances. Firing one HC after an 0-16 season will not paint this franchise as impatient. What it will do is show the world that underachieving is no longer acceptable in South Florida.
     
  16. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL no I am NOT laughing at your opinion frankly the way this is all going mine yours theirs all make me cry cause we suck.

    My opinion is based on facts, yours? Ok maybe. But as long as you ignore what been stated opposite you, dont start thinking because you dont acknowledge it it doesnt exist. You have what facts honestly? We are 0-11 that is all I have read. It is fact we traded for Green, that doesnt make it fact it was bad, it is only fact that he got hurt and it turned out bad, that doesnt mean the move was bad, you would have had to have known for fact that he was beyond a shadow of a doubt gonna get hurt. I happen to like the move, because of his knowledge of teh system is a smart guy and felt it was possible, not fact, that he could end up a qb coach. Beck has stated that Green has been actively assisting him learn. So while you may not agree with the move, and I respect that, it based on your beliefs not fact. Porter has not performed well til teh last few games, you may feel the contract was stupid, which is fair, but isnt based on fact, it is based on belief. SO I am not bashing or sticking up my nose, I just dont see facts.

    Again my facts are injuries, cant deny them, numerous lineup switches in a new system, inexperience, and a rookie head coach with a single draft and offseason with a limited cap room, none of which prove Cam will be a great head coach. It is just the basis of why I believe he should get another year. I never said you were wrong, I said I believe you were not seeing all sides and that you made your mind up based on 1 game. You andothers think 0-16 is somewhat more tragic than 1-15, I dont it means teh same to me.
     
  17. NJPHINFAN

    NJPHINFAN Season Ticket Holder

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    He also did this in a league without a salary cap.

    He also traded Herscel Walker for LB Jesse Solomon, DB Issiac Holt, RB Darrin Nelson, LB David Howard, DE Alex Stewart, and 6 assorted draft picks (conditional 1st & 2nd round in'90 and '91; 1st round and conditional 3rd in '92).

    Comparing the NFL pre-1994 with the NFL post 1994 is apples and oranges.

    Talking Jimmah up as a great coach who turned around a franchise without providing FACTS about the most significant trade in Dallas Cowboys history, a trade that allowed him to remake the team, is misleading.
     
  18. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bill Walsh
    2-14
    6-10
    13-3 Championship

    Mike Ditka
    3-6 (strike year)
    8-8
    10-6
    15-1 Championship

    Bill Parcells
    3-12-1
    9-7
    10-6
    14-2 Championship

    Bill Belicheat
    6-10
    6-10
    7-9
    11-5
    5-11 (fired)

    Chuck Noll
    1-13
    5-9
    6-8
    11-3
    10-4
    10-3-1 Championship

    I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
     
  19. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, it's not apples and oranges.

    The salary cap and free agency has made it if anything EASIER to build a team. Over the last several years, there has been a tremendous amount of teams going from nowhere and making a mark, and a large part of that has been the talent that around on the FA market. Every year there are a handful of cinderella teams that come out nowhere and exceed expectations. Playoff turnover for the last several years has steadily been about 50% from year to year.

    What the salary cap and free agency have theoretically done(I disagree) is make it harder for good teams to keep their players.
     
  20. Texphinphan

    Texphinphan Season Ticket Holder

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    Good stuff. Thanks
     
  21. Texphinphan

    Texphinphan Season Ticket Holder

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    I think one other difference is that Jimmy had a record of achievement as a head coach of a professional team, the 'Canes (Its a joke! I am still bitter about the 91 Cotton bowl)) that Cam does not have.
     
  22. Fla Phin

    Fla Phin New Member

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    I'm usually of the opinion to give people second chances. I'm not overly upset that he hasn't been able to coach up a win yet because there are numerous reasons for that with some being out of his control injuries/lack of existing talent....

    ... but, some of his decisions have been down right bizzare.

    I keep going back to last years playoff game between SD and NE and felt for the most part that he called a good game. But then at the end of the game he went away from the reason they were winning (running LT) and started passing... well we all know how that turned out.

    He's supposed to be that type of coach that calls a play that has everyone else saying that it was a great call and unpredictable. I haven't been impressed with his body of work in calling the offensive game plan.

    Yes I've heard all of the excuses and reasons why he hasn't been successful, i.e., lack of talent, etc. and there just might be something to that but the great coaches end up winning because of their coaching when their talent level is not that great.

    I'm not bashing him just waiting to see some of the coaching talent that we all heard about before he was hired.
     
  23. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    He used LT the entire first half. At the beginning of the second half, he expected adjustments on the part of New England to deal with LT, thus he came out passing. By the end of the third quarter, he realized that the adjustments weren't there and he went back to LT.

    There's nothing mysterious or incompetent about that. That's exactly what he should have done.
     
  24. Fla Phin

    Fla Phin New Member

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    This sounds backwards to me... you don't necessarily make any adjustments until the other team proves they can stop them. When they do stop them is when the planned adjustments are made.
    It might have been too little too late for his 'adjustment' back to LT. I think that was a big reason they lost.
     
  25. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. You expect adjustments to be made during halftime. For the first half, LT was used early and often. To expect Belichick to make defensive adjustments to prevent further success on the part of LT was correct. For Belichick to not make those adjustments was stupidity on his part.

    Basically, using your criteria, Cam would have been calling LT's number with full knowledge that the New England defense had made adjustments to stop him. That's idiocy. Had he done that, and had New England made the adjustments, you'd be criticizing him for failure to recognize that New England was going to key in on LT.
     
  26. Fla Phin

    Fla Phin New Member

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    How the hell is that idiotic? If they can't stop him why change anything until they do? I'm reminded back when John Riggins played with the skins and all they did was hand him the ball until someone stopped him. Barry Sanders kept getting fed the ball knowing full well that the other team was trying to make 'adjustments' to stop him.
    I think when you are trying to out guess the other coach (instead of just coaching X and O's) is when you end up out guessing yourself.
     
  27. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Because if the adjustments are made, and the adjustments work, you then become an idiot for going to LT when the Patriots were obviously going to make halftime adjustments, and you become a bigger idiot for going 3 and out on the first possession of the second half, giving momentum back to New England.

    Going away from LT for not even an entire quarter is not the reason why the Chargers lost to the Patriots.
     
  28. Fla Phin

    Fla Phin New Member

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    Even though they were going to make adjustments it doesn't necessarily mean that they would have been successful. Your speculating that the Pats would have made the correct adjustments to stop Cam's previous play calling. They might have, but they might not have either. All I'm saying is you don't stop what's working before it stops working because of their strategy.

    If they do successfully stop it then you go to plan B. I'm not saying that you stick with plan A until you lose. That would be Dave Wannstedt like,
     
  29. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    I just want to add an important one

    Tom Landry
    | 1960 dal | 0 11 1
    | 1961 dal | 4 9 1
    | 1962 dal | 5 8 1
    | 1963 dal | 4 10 0
    | 1964 dal | 5 8 1
    | 1965 dal | 7 7 0
    | 1966 dal | 10 3 1
     
  30. hof13

    hof13 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    1979. In 1978 the team was also 2-14. The team didn't get any worse the first year.

    1982. In 1981 the team was 6-10. Tough to tell how the strike season would've panned out.

    1983. In 1982 the team was 4-12. The team basically had the same record his first year (-.5 wins).

    1991. In 1990, the team was 3-13. He improved by 3 wins his first year.

    1969. In 1968, the team was 2-11.

    Good points, but all those coaches you mentioned inherited teams with just as bad of records as they posted the first year.

    There are also more stories of coaches who made teams more than 2 losses worse in their first year. The second year of those stories don't magically make those bad coaches better. That's usually the year they get fired.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2007
  31. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My point was that many of the greatest coaches of all time have started poorly. Many have had losing second seasons too. Unless you’re the San Diego Chargers a new coach usually comes in when the team is bad. It seems apparent to me that one of the reasons Saban left is he saw this coming.

    IMO The team that Cam inherited was not as good as its record last year, and the one he has this year is not as bad as its record. One could make the case that the better record last year and the worse record this year are due to coaching. I don't think so. Horrible miss management of the roster finally caught up with us, on a year when we play the best division in the NFC, a year when the Patriots are great, and a year when ZT is hurt and JT cannot make a play. Bottom line there is no way to tell how good a coach Cam is by one years win loss totals. 6 losses by 3 points, 0-11, yet the team gives 100% every game. Let Cam get his guys in to run his system and play the way he wants. Until then you cannot know.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The way we can tell is by our play on the field aside from the W's and L's.

    WE have looked like a bad team only in 2 games this year, Dallas and NE, both teams lead their conferences in wins.

    We also don't commit stupid penalties, in the Steelers loss, it was the Steelers that were making drive killing penalties not us.

    Also the team hasn't quit on Cam yet, they are still competing, it takes a good motivator to do that in the NFL.

    Cam has also develop some Talent for us, something the last two coaches were unable to do (aside from crowder and carey), look at out starters and our rookies are playing as well as Cam had said earlier "They start out slow and then they take off like a house on fire".

    Satele
    Mauia
    Beck
    Ginn
    JAllen


    Are all playing much better now then earlier in the year. especially Jason Allen and Ted Ginn Jr.

    It could be said that "These guys are first round picks, they should be"

    If one looks at Wanny's and Little Nicky's records, that is debatable.

    We are winless, but for the first time in years, I have some hope for us over the next 4 years, we aren't duct taping up veterans and hoping for the best anymore, we are developing our own players for a change.
     
  33. moonman

    moonman New Member

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    Some of you guys are really...REALLY ridiculous. So much so, in fact, that I question whether you have ever watched football in your lives.
     
  34. #1dolphinsfan

    #1dolphinsfan New Member

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    i say we keep Cam for another year or longer and get reed of Randy Muller
     
  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure myself.

    Mueller has a history of being a pretty good GM. His draft is looking good so far. His big FA aquisition has been touch and go, but he's also been in a rough situation in regards to Capers being forced to play Porter away from his strengths.

    The one big argument for Mueller doing a bad job this year is the DL depth going from a huge strength to a huge weakness, but when you look at the choices individually, it's hard to really see good alternatives. He had some hard choices to make with most of his DL depth 34+ years old and/or free agents, and while hindsight hasnt exactly vindicated him in regards to those players, I dont think you can really use it to condemn him.

    I think personally the right course of action would be to quietly put the periscope up for a GM that you know to be better than Mueller. For example, if the rumors about Bill Parcells wanting to become a GM are true.
     
  36. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Most of, if not all, the coaches that were listed were learning to coach on the fly, some learned faster, some not as fast but they all ended up pretty darn good.

    Cam is most definitely showing he's a rookie HC but I do like some of the personel moves he and Randy have made. I also love his offense. Certainly not all the moves have been perfect but I see hope, and I see that the first 3 picks might actually be good ones. Now thats something this team has not seen in a couple of decades. His biggest problem to me is his game day coaching. He's overwhelmed IMO, and unless he takes himself out of being both OC, and HC he's won't have the time to concentrate on the most important position out of the two. I want him to be just a HC, who is leading the team, making sure plays are called promptly, not using timeouts at uncalled for times, making sure the DC, and OC are using the schemes that work with the talent at hand. Also making sure the assistants on the staff are excellent teachers. Making sure the scouts are scouting 24/7. I could go on and on.

    I like Cam but he's got a lot to learn.
     
  37. jcthekid

    jcthekid New Member

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    Great post hof13.
    I just don't get the comparisons to a time when the game, and player acquisitions, were a lot different. I would also like to see some of the resume's that these coaches had, ie; what successes they had that justified them getting their NFL head coaching jobs. I believe that proven winners at previous HC gigs in the pros or college, would be more likely to get a pass then someone who hadn't proven that they could handle the job and failing.
     
  38. Texphinphan

    Texphinphan Season Ticket Holder

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    Really? I have enjoyed reading both sides of the argument on his thread. Informative and lively for the most part, the way debate should be. Until, of course a post like this. What is next, the old "you aren't a true dolphin fan" line of argument?

    Nice.
     
  39. gofish13

    gofish13 New Member

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    A pass.....NO. Should he be made to walk away when the "organization" decided to re-build. NO. We need to be patient and see if the "plan" to re-build continues on track or if they go and blow the 2008 salary cap on a bunch of vetrens that are past thier prime.
     
  40. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Witness!!!
     

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