Submitting balls by accident or negligence, outside of the accepted range, is okay. Intent matters. Knowingly, and hoping to play with an out of regulation ball is different. Still not as bad as tampering with the balls post-check, but you're still violating the rules.
This is like one of the least important debates (at least for me), but let me just say the letter of the law is a bit ambiguous here: http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/5_Rule2_The_Ball.pdf On one hand, it says if a home team does not supply a proper ball (proper ball = one that conforms to all specs) to the refs, then the refs can secure that from the visitors, or failing that, find the "best available ball". That "best available ball" is clearly now a legally "playable ball" because it also says the refs are the sole judge of what is playable. Well, the rules only require that the home team furnish "playable balls", not "proper balls", at all times. So, technically since a "playable ball" does NOT necessarily need to conform to specs, then I guess theoretically it's not cheating to supply an over-inflated ball to the refs. On the other hand, they do seem to suggest intent matters by saying all incidents where the home team fails to furnish a proper ball must be reported to the Commissioner. So, I'd say that while technically speaking home teams don't have to supply "proper balls" that conform to the specs, if the intent is to not supply proper balls it might be a problem. Just my interpretation of course..
But are you hoping to play with the ball out of regulation or are you hoping that it ends up at the max? You can't really know the intent here.
It is pretty clear. Every time the refs discover an improper ball, it is reported to the commissioner. Purposely trying to play with an improper ball is a rule violation. Using the best available ball is just a band aid on the violation because hey, they're in the middle of the game. There isn't a whole lot of time to run to the locker room to get it in regulation.
Don't forget the holding/non-holding calls that almost always appear at the most crucial times of games, the TD/first down calls either way that even with CLEAR evidence to overturn the ruling on the field, when the Head Coach challenges they don't, obvious different punishments for different players when they break the rules, etc etc... I believe the NFL and Roger Goodell think that fans are just plain stupid and do not see all of this going on. Aside from Cheatriots fans, who benefit every year from the corruption, the rest of us fans see what's going on and have seen it for far too long now.
Rodgers is hoping to play with the ball out of regulation. "I like to push the limits of how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do,"
But in the end, I'm really tired of talking about the Patriots. We just need to beat them. We've beaten them. We only play them twice, and we've split. We need to beat the other teams we play, and not end up 8-8. The Bills with no QB ended up with a better record than us. That's pathetic.
I just don't agree that anybody is knowingly playing with a non-compliant ball in Rodgers' strategy. I provided the example that I expect the pressure to decrease slightly for various reasons prior to testing and playing so I try to account for that ahead of time and end up with a ball at the max. I'm not playing with a non-compliant ball or even intending to. I'm trying to achieve the max level. The ref's job is to make sure that the ball is compliant. If I submitted it to the check then I have every reason to believe I am playing with a compliant ball.
That's if Brady's suspension remains. There's a chance this gets to emergency court and the NFL has not done well there.
Except we know that Rodgers is trying to get higher inflated balls through, because he talks about having bigger hands, and wanting more issue in the balls. Tis had nothing to do with trying to account for small changes in pressure due to various reasons.
Yes, he wants the balls inflated as much as possible. "Possible" can easily mean as much as the rules and system allow.
He told Simms he wanted to have, even more than the rules allowed. It doesn't get more explicit than that in the end, who cares. Beat the Patriots or keep whining about zebras next year. Just gotta beat them.
Is he? That isn't my interpretation. If 13.5 PSI is the legal limit and Rodgers is "pushing the limit," that could easily mean 13.6/13.7 PSI. However, when the balls are checked, air is lost. roughly .1-.2 PSI. Which would put Rodgers at the legal limit because he pushed the limits. Rodgers statement is ambiguous and subject to interpretation. And the statement in question was given second hand, by a couple of announcers, without elaboration and context. It's hearsay at best. And in the end, it's moot anyway. The refs check the ball and if any irregularities in psi occur, they fix it. So even if Rodgers was trying to cheat the system (and it's a stretch to say so), there is a check and balance system in place. Obviously, Brady and co. tried to circumvent the checks and balances system, which makes it an entirely different issue than whatever Rodgers may or may not do to the balls pre-inspection.
I don't see it as explicit at all. At best I see the statement as up to interpretation. I also see it as moot b/c regardless as to what he hopes for, he's not circumventing the part where the balls have to be deemed playable by the refs. That's really all that matters. If you turn the balls in for inspection and the refs approve it then you have every reason to believe you're complying with the rules. Reality is that Rodgers probably didn't calculate changes in pressure or any other such nonsense. He probably just told the equipment guy he likes the balls as inflated as possible. That's not cheating. Cheating is bribing the equipment guy to steal the ball back after the check and alter them.
As I said, it's moot. Let's beat them on the field. Even when playing with good balls they whooped the Colts and Seahawks. It's never easy with Brady and Belly.
Right, but it gets back to, Raf, whether or not the refs were really checking the balls correctly. There are reports of refs simply squeezing the balls to check. If the refs are using a psi device to measure, then you'd be correct. But, if players knew that refs weren't actually measuring all the time, and you sent over-inflated balls to a check, and the refs sent them through, then that is cheating. The rule didn't ever say that the balls can be out of regulation after the check. It says that they are checked, and that the balls must regain in regulation throughout the game.
I don't see any reason to believe the balls weren't being checked or that the players knew they weren't being checked. In fact, we have evidence that the players believed it was being checked otherwise Brady wouldn't have bothered to bribe his equipment guy to alter them afterwards. Either way it would be the ref's job to check. It's not on Rodgers to make sure that the refs are doing their job.
I'm still not seeing the link between other people cheating and the Pats cheating. It was proven that the balls were deflated on purpose. Anyone who believes some ball boy/game manager did this all on is own is naive. And the deflating of footballs seems to have enabled the Pats to have an out of this world turnover ratio. Unintended? Maybe. It still is cheating and thus determined the outcome of football games. And to all those who say, "well, the Pats would have won even if they didn't cheat". What does that matter? If Donald Trump robbed a bank should he be set free because he doesn't need the money?
Its just so disgusting how people will defend the Pats no matter what the hell they get caught cheating about, simply because they've argued so hard that they are the premiere franchise for so long they refuse to let themselves accept the truth. Basically what we have is people who are so angry at the Dolphins they've put the Pats on a pedestal that's too big to knock them off of. The Pats do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, regardless of how big someone's Pat's homer boner is.
For me, the link is simply that if we're going after cheating, then we should go after cheating. That includes QBs trying to sneak over-inflated/under/inflated balls through. I agree that the Patriots form of cheating was more egregious...but I don't agree with defending other QBs/teams who have come out admitting to playing with over/under inflated balls. Other teams cheating doesn't make the Patriots offense better or worse. I would just prefer to see consistency, and not some sort of witch hunt that goes after only one team/QB.
Just because one admitted it, and one denied it, why does that mean that we only go after the one denying it? That's what I don't get, and why, to me, it seems that alot of the the anger is due to it being the Patriots. I get that they have a history of cheating/pushing the limits. So, at the end of the day, are we mad about how the Patriots went about the cheating? Or, are we mad about the cheating?
Because Rodgers submitted the balls and let the officials do what they do. Brady bribed a guy to take the balls AFTER they were inspected and deflated them.
I dont believe we will ever see Tom Brady actually serve his suspension. I believe the NFL will eventually reduce his suspension to Two games, but Brady will still challenge in court. Which means he will start the season as NE's QB. The court process will drag on...which I believe both parties really want. The NFL gets to maintain their punishment, while Brady gets to play, which he wants. Will be next offseason before it goes to court, which will end up being moot because I think its Bradys last season.
But, Jerry Rice never had to submit his gloves for inspection before, during or after games. Aha! Witch-hunt.
So what? I mean, I get what you guys are arguing, that if it gets through the refs check, then it's on the refs. Really, you're kind of arguing plausible deniability. However, what I'm saying, is that according to the rules, it doesn't matter how or when the balls are outside the required psi limits. If a ball is discovered to be outside the limits, at any point during the game, then you are playing with illegal equipment. If you are actively and knowingly sending over/under inflated balls to the check, and you end up with over/under inflated balls after the check, then yes, the refs didn't do their job...but you got what you wanted, which is whatever advantage you were seeking by sending over/under inflated balls in the first place. Anyway, we probably won't agree, so I guess I'll leave it at that.
The hammer came down hard on Tom Brady not only because he cheated, but because he purposely impeded the entire NFL investigation, refused to cooperate, and flat out lied.
I agree with this...I've said all along, Brady and the Pats were in trouble because they lied and impeded...but this says to me that it's not about the cheating at all. LOL
B/c admitting to wanting the balls inflated as much as possible and to pushing the limit but still conforming with the process isn't cheating.
So, I assume you have hard evidence that Rodgers did play with over-inflated balls? Because that's the ONLY way it's cheating.
I think the cheating (and he DID cheat, no disputing that) was very minimal in determining Brady's punishment. If he would have just come out (I've seen photos of him posted on this message board showing that he already "came out" ) and said that he likes his footballs a little more deflated and owned up to it I think there would have probably just been a small fine and a slap on the wrist and it would have been over with. But obviously, Tom Brady, just like Bill Belichick and Robert Kraft for that matter, thinks that rules and laws don't apply to him. He has made himself look like a complete idiot for dragging this out for so long and stomping his feet and whining like a spoiled toddler the entire time. I mean, he was caught cheating, caught lying about it, refused to cooperate, his ex-teammates said that he has been cheating his entire career since day one and everyone from players to coaches to ownership knew about it all along. I swear I don't see how anyone could say he is one of the GOAT QB's with all of the information out there showing what a cheating loser he has always been. And now he is threatening to take it to Federal Court if he doesn't get his way! LOL That is the ONLY thing Tom Brady is the GOAT at. Whining and crying around like a grade school girl. Pathetic...
Who knows? And this is my point...people are pointing at the Patriots like the only team ding this...but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it is league-wide being done. If this is going to be a rule, then the NFL needs to have a team that does nothing but take care of the balls. We don't know if Rodgers was able to get balls through...but it stands to reason that Rodgers wouldn't be trying if it didn't work some of the time.
What is Rodgers getting away with? He asks the equipment guys to put as much pressure as possible in the balls. I'm sure he doesn't check them throughout the game or even know what the pressure is in the balls the refs approve. As far as he or anybody knows every ball he uses is approved by the NFL. And there is a team of NFL refs whose job it is to check the balls. The Patriots are the only ones who got got bribing and stealing and then lying about it.
[h=1]http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/some-nfl-owners-pushing-roger-goodell-to-keep-tom-brady-s-suspension-as-is-141702153.html Some 'influential owners' don't want Tom Brady's suspension reduced[/h] According to the PFT report, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is "being pushed by a small handful of influential owners to hold firm" on Brady's four-game suspension for deflate-gate. I'm going to go out on a limb and conclude that the "small handful of influential owners" are also fed up with the Patriots being better than them. (To answer all your comments, emails and tweets to follow: No I'm not from Boston, no I'm not a Patriots fan, no I don't care about Brady or Bill Belichick and no I'm not part of any other crazy conspiracy theory you have either.) There are some fans who think Brady should be suspended forever and the Patriots should have all their Super Bowl trophies taken and on and on. Those are fans, and over-the-top reactions are part of the deal. I expect just a wee bit more from the actual owners, who should be above that. If you've actually read the Wells Report with an open mind, you realize there's no specific evidence when it comes to Brady. The PFT report says attorney Gregg Levy, who participated in the appeal hearing as a legal consultant to the commissioner, has been warning Goodell it would be difficult to make the suspension stick in court. Which, of course it would be, since there's no evidence. But some owners don't want to hear that, apparently, because this is their chance to stick it to the Patriots.
Yeah, I'm in the camp of predicting Brady's suspension will not be reduced. It's not just the cheating, but also the relatively high number of high profile scandals in the NFL last year as well as Goodell probably not wanting to be seen as a puppy of Kraft. We'll see..
