1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What will it take?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Undisputed, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

    2,476
    1,128
    113
    Mar 21, 2013
    I think Tannehill is a good QB, but that he has shortcomings that have kept us from the playoffs and could potentially keep him from becoming an excellent or great QB. Unless he improves in certain areas, to me he needs a lot of help around him for us to be contenders, let alone consistent contenders every year.
     
  2. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    The team has made him work through chicken sh*t for 3 years...this year he has a little chicken salad...watch him eat.
     
  3. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

    4,796
    2,760
    113
    Feb 27, 2012
    Miami
    You obviously missed the One True Viewpoint and Fan:

    The Omar Kelly Red Bandanna Shownuff Contingent: The disciples of The One True Fan, Omar Kelly, who speaketh the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth with respects to our overrated, hated amongst his wide receivers, and overall sh*tty so called Quarterback.

    And of course, His One True Holy mouthpiece, Her Holy Empress, Truthlayer Lady Miko Grimes.
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    So, what shortcomings kept us from the playoffs last year? I mean, there is some blame on Tannehill, but the oline falling apart and the defensive collapse loom much larger in my mind to why we missed the playoffs, far above any of Tannehill's missteps.
     
    Undisputed and 77FinFan like this.
  5. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,215
    1,896
    113
    Mar 10, 2013
    Buckeye Land
    I agree Res. Hard to overcome a D giving up 32 points a game. I also have no problem agreeing w/ him taking part of the blame in the final two games of 2013. Seven points in two games is bad.
     
    Undisputed and resnor like this.
  6. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    I've never seen anyone stick up for Billy Turner, Cortland Finnegan, etc?
     
  7. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Here's a question...our defense plays like it did the first 10 games last year...we put up 36 at Denver (top 3 D in the league)...would you NOT normally expect a win there? I sure as hell would.
     
    Undisputed and Fin D like this.
  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I and others have pointed out that while Thomas was horrid at T he was competent at G last year.
     
    Fin4Ever likes this.
  9. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

    2,476
    1,128
    113
    Mar 21, 2013
    The shortcomings I see with him are ypa, aggression that comes and goes re: his decision-making, not engaging his athleticism (has to do with pocket feel as well). Let's hope the end-of-season offensive meltdowns are just a two-year thing. I don't think he threatens the whole field on a regular basis (escaping the pocket and attacking deep and middle), seldom hits quick strike drives and big plays. Opts too often for hitches or sideline ropes into tight windows where the receiver gets dropped immediately, doesn't consistently test high-risk high-reward options over the middle or to guys moving vertically or anticipation plays into space.

    He's been a conservative, steady QB whose accuracy in the short and intermediate game is very good, especially to tight spaces. He makes quick decisions within the offense, doesn't turn it over, he's smart, has all kinds of physical tools, and we've seen flashes of a more aggressive, attacking style. Another big plus is that he's developing under what appears to be one of the best OC's in the League.

    I like him; I'm happy he's our guy going into this season. There's a reasonably good chance he makes this jump. But right now he's not a great QB, and to me the improvements he's made are more incremental and volume-related than people say. If he plays the next ten seasons the way he just played in 2014, we are not a legit, consistent contender every year. Bottom line to me is that the odds of making the postseason year-to-year with your QB tallying a ypa below 7 are not good. That's just a fact. People can cry supporting cast all they want; but he has never, since he took over QB at A&M, been strong in this dept.

    How can five years of deficiency in a key metric not be a legit concern?
     
  10. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    His YPA and AYPA his first 3 years equal to "the greatest QB ever" Tom Brady's first 3 years...and Brady had 2 rings in that period. All while being asked to do a LOT more for the team than Marcia was, and getting sacked a helluva lot more.

    RT's YPA in college was 7.0 and 7.1 his 2 years starting, with 137/133 QB ratings for the team. Brady's first 2 years playing in Michigan -- 5.2 and 6.9 (only played 4 games that year though) and 63/137 for QB rating. I don't think it means RT is stuck around high 6s low 7s, and if you don't ignore supporting cast, it seems fairly sensible it contributed to his pro numbers. Brady's career, including years with Gronk/Killer/Moss (YAC monsters), is still only 7.4 YPA, and he has 4 rings. We'll need another year or two of RT to really be able to gauge how much it really matters.

    And RT's wife is MUCH hotter than Brady's, so there.
     
    resnor likes this.
  11. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    8,605
    6,743
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    American politics aside, do you really believe that? Millions of Christians the world over may feel different. Just saying.
     
  12. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

    2,476
    1,128
    113
    Mar 21, 2013
    Tom Brady came into the League fifteen years ago when the average ypa was lower. There weren't as many guys above 7 as there are now (almost half as many). Game's changing. Either way, Brady and the Pats offense have always been an exception. Comparing to them is not terribly useful; they run things very differently. Look at the League as a whole.

    Tannehill's ypa in college ranked around 70th in the FBS. College numbers are always higher.

    Are you arguing that he HAS shown good/above avg production in the ypa dept? Because I don't see that as true at all. Or are you arguing that you don't HAVE to be good in the ypa dept to win? Because it's pretty commonly understood to be an important number when predicting wins.
     
  13. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    I'm just saying that because he's had the numbers he's had on the Dolphins, it doesn't lock him into that range and prevent him from massive improvement in that area...like other areas. He had the same coach at A&M that he had his first two years here...and the 3rd year he was getting a new system down. You say the "supporting cast" argument doesn't wash...I say it does. It certainly played a part. Not blaming it 100%, but it surely had a noteworthy impact.

    How many times, before this camp, did we hear from ANYBODY covering their practices/camps, "Tannehill is dealing today," or "Tannehill looks super sharp today," or "4 deep ball connections in today's practice for Tannehill?" And he's been hitting everybody from Landry to the towel boy...

    From some reports, he did major work on his footwork this off-season, and it is showing in his poise and action in the pocket. THAT matters more to me than a little YPA differential.

    And comparing RT to Brady "back then" isn't much different than comparing in his last two years...where he was 6.9 and 7.1 YPA...even with Gronk getting crazy YAC. I firmly believe we have MUCH more capacity for YAC this season compared to the past three...which will naturally push his YPA upward. I just don't doubt RT will improve, as he has over the past few years...in some areas it may have been minor, but on the collective, he's putting a serious skillset together and its fun to watch. RT > Brady in 2015...ya...I said it...and he'll do it without a Moss.

    Its just crazy to me how so many people outside this fanbase and organization put RT on a higher plane than some of us do. The kid has earned my trust, and I don't believe he's anywhere near his ceiling.

    Edit: Here's nearly half of the top 10 YPA from last year...see if you notice anything they have in common:

    Philip Rivers
    Ryan Fitzpatrick
    Bryan Hoyer
    Mark Sanchez

    Hint: none made the playoffs.

    Brady was 21st and won the Super Bowl. Would anybody say he didn't do his part to help the team win? Nope...but that's RT's narrative.
     
    Fin D and resnor like this.
  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Well, the ypa had been discussed ad nauseum. For most of last season, Tannehill was above a 7ypa. Talking about not going deep...really? You gotta have protection to allow the receivers time to get deep. Tannehill got rid of the ball quickest in the league, if I remember correctly...If you don't believe that wasn't by design, to try to overcome a terrible oline, I guess you're welcome to that belief.

    I guess I'm of the belief that you can't have it both ways. You can't believe that Tannehill is a top 10, or 12-14 with possibility to be top 10, and at the same time pick apart his game without considering his supporting cast. A QB needs to know that he can depend on his oline to hold blocks, and he needs to believe that his receivers will make plays. When you don't have those things, you end up with a QB who doesn't take chances, and didn't throw the ball freely when he does. You can't simply disregard the oline and receivers when evaluating aQB.
     
    Fin D and PhinFan1968 like this.
  15. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Ya his first game last year (1st game in new system) was 5.5 YPA, 2nd game 4.9, 3rd game 4.7...then the light came on and he started showing that he was picking up the new system and in game 4 it was 8.9. That's not even weighing all the drops in the first 3 games, which were many, and had Miami FAR in the league lead for drops. And the one thing that's being forgotten (or ignored, or just not understood at all) is that YPA, like passer rating, is an offensive team stat...not individual to the QB. So ignoring supporting cast is to ignore the stat as a whole.
     
    resnor and Fin D like this.
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,650
    67,542
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Im here, Im not going anywhere, and I have said repeatedly, ryan is good enough to lead us to the playoffs, my reserve comes in the form of certain things that I have gone on record about..

    first off those things you listed are things he needs to get better at...he's been the most sacked qb in the game since he entered the league, theres things he has to do to avoid getting sacked.... and what big games has he won?..I think the narrative gets blurred when some are saying what he needs to work on and like you said, some things that you think he will evolve into taking into account that lack of experience, I think your speaking of those who critique his game without the lack of experience caveat...I think you have a point there, I think when critiquing his game you either account for how he projects or you just dont believe he can evolve into what your saying..

    For me, Im projecting what I think is his ceiling when it comes to a playoff atmosphere, with pressure, on the road, thats the context for which I always analyzed him..Ive always known how talente he was.

    whats great is that he does seem to have ceiling left, he is improving, its a slow process, but its improvement..Can I sit here and be honest and say I think he can get it done under those circumstances?....hmmm, I dont know man..but Im excited to find out if this extremely dexteritious athlete can do something thats never been done.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,650
    67,542
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    i believe were close in this evaluation..and if anyone calls this kind of opinion agenda driven or wrong, then they have the problem..this is how you debate.
     
  18. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

    2,476
    1,128
    113
    Mar 21, 2013
    You're doing it backwards. How many playoff QBs were below 7ypa? Zero. Sure, some years you get an exception or two, but more often than not at least 10 of the 12 playoff QBs are above that number. I'll aim for the rule rather than the exception.

    Well, if we're picking and adjusting sample sizes, his average ypa over the second half of the season (a more common sample than the "last thirteen") was 6.8.

    There's ignoring changing variables (supporting casts)...and then there's ignoring the common denominator, which is what you're doing. Tannehill has played with 5 different rosters and has never been above avg in this important area. If you want to make excuses in the light of that strong a trend, go ahead I guess. It just rings as dishonest, and I doubt you'd do it for the QB of another team.

    I don't get how what I'm saying is controversial or upsetting to people. Am I a hater for having an evidenced concern?

    These are plain old facts:
    1) There's this QB metric that correlates highly to winning (many think most highly).
    2) Tannehill has performed poorly in said metric for five years; he has never been above avg.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    See, this is where we jump off. You say you think he's a good QB...then your last statement destroys that theory. You are arguing that his YPA has never been good, and predicting that it will stay that way. If YPA is the indicator that many say it is, then stick to your guns, and argue that we need a new QB.

    Frankly, I don't think that cutting out games 4-8 to get a nice second half is fair, especially when you're doing that to support low ypa. Clearly it takes a few games to get comfortable in a new offense. It seems that Tannehill did that, and started playing well from game four on (actually, I'd argue he played well, or better than stats show, in the first three, but our receivers really let him down), and then in the second half of the season, the oline really struggled once Albert went down. Again, you can't evaluate Tannehill without considering his surrounding cast. Pointing at low ypa in the second half is fine, but realize what the whole story was. Kinda like poor third down and fourth quarter stats. Teams were crushing our oline in obvious passing situations, even using only four rushers. But let's ignore all that, and say it must be Tannehill's fault.
     
  20. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Never called you a hater, I just see it differently. Particularly since I see YPA as an offense stat, not QB-only.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I think its disingenuous on your part to ignore the fact that the bulk of his receivers were Hartline, Gibson & Wallace (Bess & Legedodo too). That makes for one god awful WR corps. Most of those guys are not YAC guys. YAC is another thing you're ignoring as well.
     
    Undisputed and resnor like this.
  22. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    1) Wrong...it's an offense metric, including players, OC, HC.
    2) Wrong again, his offenses have performed below average in said metric for 5 years.

    If you're going to gloss over the amount of passer rating and YPC the receivers lost the team in the first few games, then there's no point in discussing it...they killed it. Take away even half of the in-the-breadbasket drops in the first few games, and he's well into 7+. I'm not talking about throws they had to go up and fight for...I'm talking right on the money...there were several. Unless, somehow, you can show those were RT's fault.
     
    Undisputed and resnor like this.
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Yep. So many, in the hands balls...dropped...and quite a few were deep balls, for tds. It was ludicrous.
     
  24. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    8,605
    6,743
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    Ryan Tannehill got better when Mike Wallace went to Minnesota. Yea Wallace you weak sauce. You made your QB better by getting out of his way. Thank You.
     
    Undisputed likes this.
  25. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

    3,662
    1,404
    113
    Oct 15, 2011
    Seneca, SC
    -Had a chance to lead game winning drive against Broncos, 4th quarter meltdown included Tannehill. He had a 28-17 buffer going into the 4th quarter I don't care if you have the 32nd defense int he league.

    -As for the Lions game, the defense carried us the entire game, yes they choked it at the end. But Tannehill didn't do a whole hell of a lot that game. 207 yards 1 TD 1 INT.

    -Packers game, well the final drive was on the defense of course... But Tannehill threw 2 INTs in this game. He was hardly a saving grace. The only reason Aaron Rodgers was able to lead a game winning drive was because Tannehill couldn't get his offense to punch it in on a golden opportunity.

    Elite quarterbacks lead game winning drives, consistently. That's what the OP is knighting Tannehill, Elite. Sorry, not quite there pal.

    You can have all the "thanks" in the world you're still wrong. To try and suggest Tannehill is exempt from said losses because the defense blew it at the very end? What a cop out. A real leader would say I shouldn't have even put my defense in that position. And I think that's exactly what he did project when he said "Judge me on wins." So I'll say again... that is what I will do.
     
    Fin4Ever likes this.
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,650
    67,542
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    your right, and I think those upgrades will take us to the playoffs..but thats just the beginning.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    lol
     
    resnor likes this.
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    28-17 lead...and the loss is on Tannehill? Hahaha
    Green Bay? Tannehill was bad in the first half, but played elite football in the second half. Defense lost that game.

    I don't think that right now, Tannehill is elite. But some of the arguments are just ridiculous.

    Side note: those saying the detractors are overblown, pay attention. All the old arguments are being thrown out right now.
     
    Undisputed likes this.
  29. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

    3,662
    1,404
    113
    Oct 15, 2011
    Seneca, SC
    Is that all you got? I'm not trying to hate on Tannehill. I don't want to. I have faith in him to win us more games this year.

    However people trying to absolve him of responsibility or role in key losses? That's ridiculous. You all know it.

    Or maybe some of you have forgot what an elite QB who can put a team on his shoulders in the 4th quarter looks like since we haven't had one around here for so long I don't know... but in any event... as much as I want and believe in Tannehill's ability to progress and have better stats and win more games, and I think he will. But it's certainly premature to call him "Elite."

    My only grievance in this thread has been about calling Tannehill "Elite" as the OP did... If you think he could currently be considered elite, you're either a homer or you're stupid. LOL at that chuckle head.
     
  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    You're referring to IdrA's post #65?

    Ignoring the details for a moment, I think the main point he's trying to make is that Tannehill deserves part of the blame for those losses. That is, you can't just look at what happened at the end of the game and ignore the rest of the game to assign blame. I wouldn't consider that "Tannehill bashing". "Tannehill bashing" would for me be claiming Tannehill was the primary reason we lost those games.

    Looking at the details, I'd agree partly with 2 out of 3 (just personal opinion). I think Tannehill did enough to win the Denver game. I don't think that despite exemplary 2nd half performance in the GB game you can forget the bad 1st half by him, so blame in the GB game has to be distributed, and some of that should be on Tannehill (not much though because he made up for a lot in the 2nd half). Detroit I think you have to agree he didn't do much to help us win and he shoulders some of the blame for that loss.

    However, those examples are a bit cherry picked to help the argument the defense was the problem. If I wanted to argue Tannehill isn't good enough, I wouldn't choose those games. I'd choose some games like those against the Jets/Bills at the end of the 2013 season where we could've made the playoffs and Tannehill didn't step up to the plate at all.

    Either way, I don't consider IdrA's post there to be "Tannehill bashing" yet. Now if he starts claiming Tannehill was the primary reason we lost the Denver/GB game, etc.. then yeah I'd agree that's not fair to Tannehill.
     
    Kud_II and resnor like this.
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    No, it's not referencing specifically IdrA's post. His sentiments, among a couple other posts are what I'm referencing.

    Sure, Tannhill played poorly in the first half of the Green Bay game. But the defense had a lead, with 10 seconds left, and had two abysmal plays that allowed the game to be lost. Detroit, the defense also had a lead to protect at the end, but, true to form, they folded. Could Tannehill have done more? Yeah. Could the other offensive players? Yes. Could the defense? Yes. That defense had a ton of games where they allowed 30 points or more. I forget the exact number. It was ridiculous. So, you're expecting your third year QB, with a bad oline, to overcome 30 point outings consistently. I get it, Tannehill has stuff to work on. I think the point that I, and others, are making, is that Tannehill is not even close to the main reason that we didn't make the playoffs. 2013, those last two games, was a complete team failure. Tannehill played poorly. As did everyone else. I'm really broken up that the second year QB couldn't get it done. That being said, I don't agree with the sentiment that the second year QB, who was farther behind due to college starts than other second year QBs, should be expected to carry a team on his shoulders.
     
    Unlucky 13 likes this.
  32. GrimeyGrimes

    GrimeyGrimes New Member

    13
    1
    0
    Apr 1, 2015

    I don't think this is a good example.

    the defense was absolutely gassed in the second half because Tannehill couldn't keep the offense on the field in the first half.
     
  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I see..

    Just a suggestion. There might be fewer overt disagreements in these Tannehill debates if you explicitly emphasize the "Expectation for a 1st/2nd/3rd year QB" part. Most of the time that argument is completely left out and the arguments are: "Tannehill did X wrong" vs. "But what about the OL and defense?".
     
  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    That's fair, to some extent, cbrad. However, if you're talking about say, YPA, and people are complaining about Tannehill, or making predictions, I don't believe it is a second/third year QB thing. In that situation, I will point out the oline and receivers as being major problems in the area of ypa. Some stuff is a young QB, with limited starts thing. This year, being his fourth, I expect to see another jump, and I think we're at the point where the limited college starts reason is at an end. Either he does stuff this year, or he doesn't. That is, barring collapses by other parts of the team.
     
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    That game was 10-3 at halftime. Now, they may have been gassed, I guess...but I always have to wonder, if the offense being on the field as long as the defense, how come the offense isn't gassed? It's not like the oline is taking plays off, or the QB. The running backs get some breaks, and once in awhile a receiver will come off for a play. But, overall, offensive starters are out there. Regardless, with 10 seconds on the clock, there is no excuse. There's no excuse for a 3rd and 14, or whatever it was, being completed easily for a first down, even before those last two plays.
     
    Undisputed likes this.
  36. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

    361
    185
    43
    Aug 19, 2014
    One problem is that elite QB is a very special designation to me. Since you use the term with RT, it is clearly not special to you. Rogers and Brady are the only elite QBs in the league.

    If you state that RT should be a top 10 QB this year, then I agree. If you state that RT is one of the top QBs, that is stretching it. If you say he is elite, you are wrong.
     
  37. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

    361
    185
    43
    Aug 19, 2014
    In the past, I thought that Wallace received too much of the blame. I beginning to agree with you.
     
  38. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

    51,929
    63,006
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    Reports are that Wallace has been somewhat invisible in Minnesota this camp season so far too. Someone else pointed out that he excelled when he offense he was in with the Steelers was undisciplined and he was able to just get open on broken plays and have Big Ben toss it up. In a more structured (ie, normal) scheme, he's less valuable. Lesson learned.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I would say top 10 is basically the same as being one of the top QBs....

    I don't think Tannehill is elite right now...But I think he definitely could get there.
     
  40. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

    361
    185
    43
    Aug 19, 2014
    I probably should have said top tier QB (3-6 players). I am doubtful that he achieves that level of distinction, but it is possible.
     

Share This Page