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What will it take?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Undisputed, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    I think he'll be just outside that, or in it, by the end of the year.
     
  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    If you wait a few years, it's actually highly realistic Tannehill will be in that elite group of QB's because so many top 10 QB's today have been in the league 10+ years. Their retirement will leave guys like Wilson, Luck, etc.. and there aren't too many of those. For whatever reason, there was a dearth of great talent at QB in-between these two groups.
     
  3. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    Naaa...being the shiniest turd, because you're slightly ahead of a bowl full of dull ugly turds, doesn't make you elite. I think he ends up elite on his own merits, not because there's a void of NFL QB talent.
     
  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I mistakenly used the word "elite" when I was responding to "top tier". He'll be "top tier" through retirements after awhile.
     
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  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Get *****y all you want, but your 1st and 3rd bullets are RIDICULOUS. All caps.
     
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  6. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Never said that... however... Tannehill still has to convince me he can lead this team to multiple game winning drives... 4th quarter if we are going to put him in the elite category. But no, by no means I am certainly not saying Tannehill is totally responsible for those losses.

    We do need a QB that can handle the pressure cooker than is the 4th quarter. I sincerely hope we've found that guy in Tannehill.
     
  7. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    I have him currently #13 in the NFL and trending up.. i expect him to be somewhere between 7-10 after next season...
     
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  8. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think folks just want to argue when it comes to QBs. For some reason, everyone wants to make it seem that their opinion is unique.

    I have read every QB-centric thread since I joined and to my eyes, there is almost no argument going on—just a bunch of hen’s clucking, myself included. Virtually every voice seems to expresses the same general feeling albeit with slightly more/less optimistic language. The fact everyone wants to talk about it and we’re all willing to beat it to death makes it seem bigger than it is.

    It’s not about whether a 3-year starter is elite or not. It’s about whether that player is continuing to develop, which thankfully Tannehill is. What it comes down to is that we all want to see how Tannehill continues to progress and if he emerges as someone who can be relied on to really go out and lead the team to big victories or if he levels off, which many do.

    For me, QBs come in 4 flavors:

    (1) Awful—a significant liability (i.e. Geno Smith)
    (2) Disappointing—good enough to compete, not a long-term starter (i.e. Mark Sanchez)
    (3) Good—more than enough to start and win games (i.e. Matt Ryan)
    (4) Superb—clearly a huge advantage (i.e. Aaron Rodgers)

    What’s the point of breaking it down any further when there are at most maybe 20 QBs who’ve had 2-3 years starting on their respective team? What I notice is that Tannehill’s progress last year elevated him from a level-2 to a level-3 QB in most folks’ estimation. His new pay-grade indicates the team agreed as well.

    However, it’s fair to say that it takes more than a single solid season to get to level-4. Keep in mind, level-4 QBs are generally players with 6-10 years in the league with at least 4-5 of those being as a starter, often on a good team with Play-off exposure.

    How could Tannehill be an elite, level-4 QB at this point in his career? There’s just no way. I can’t think of anyone who at Tannehill’s age and level of experience was a legitimate level-4 QB outside of maybe Andrew Luck based on his pocket presence, scrambling ability, toughness and uncanny ability to put up gaudy passing numbers. But as we all know, Luck came into the NFL more prepared than any QB in history. Tannehill was quite the opposite having what, 18 college starts under a coach whose NFL career can be labeled relatively average? Even I’ll admit that most successful young QBs (i.e. Luck, Wilson, etc.) mostly look like level-3 guys outside of a few highlight moments.

    I have seen plenty of QBs from level-3 win Super Bowls. In fact, most Super Bowls feature at least one level-3 QB, someone who was never a level-4. Heck, I have seen QBs from level-2 get to Super Bowls and conference championship games.

    Tannehill looks like he’s on the path to becoming someone who at worst could probably do enough to get an elite team to a conference championship game. Is he good enough to take an average team that far? All I can say is that over the last couple seasons, Miami's roster has looked fairly average and they've wound up fairly average in the rankings.

    It occurs to me however, that some fans may simply be scared into thinking that success mandates a level-4 QB. Point blank, if you have a level-4 guy you’re lucky but you’ve probably been watching him develop for more than 5 years—which we have not in the case of Tannehill.

    Having been under construction for 3 years, I’d say Miami’s offense and its QB are right where they should be, firmly entrenched at level-3 with the arrow pointing up. Give it a few years, stay positive and watch things unfurl. That’s all I can tell you.


    P.S. Spell-check suggests ‘Geno’ be replaced with ‘goon.’ That’s just magical.
     
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  9. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Extremely well said, couldn't have said it any better, he graduated to a Level 3 after last season. However, if he does reach a Level 4, I think it will be in 2017 as Parker and Juice will be in their prime and RT17 should be ready by then to take that leap.
     
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  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Some good points Greg, but a few things..

    It pains me to see a category where you have Sanchez in it right next to a category with Matt Ryan in it. I suggest having 5 flavors, adding in the middle the category "Average".


    Dan Marino
     
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  11. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I agree, and would also suggest a catagory below what's listed as awful, because frankly we've had our share of QBs worse than that ourselves. Guys who frankly don't belong in the NFL yet the team keeps throwing them out there.
     
  12. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    I think you guys above are reading a little too much into the names that Greg listed as examples with the Levels, guys like J Beck, C Lemon, R Lucas, Geno, etc., are all Level 1 for the fact that they are awful and you know dang well that your team isnt in line to win **** with them at QB(despite the fact that some might be slightly better then the other, the point of Level 1 is your not winning anything with these guys because they are all different levels of terrible), then you have guys like Sanchez, T Dilfer, B Johnson, C Kaepernick, etc., as Level2, where in a contained enviroment and solid team/coaching, you can go far with them (as it was proven already with all Level 2 names above).. You only need 4 Levels.. no need for more, I see exactly what Greg was trying to say and how/where to list every QB I have seen.
     
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  13. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Put it this way. I'd rank Dalton in a category above Sanchez, but below Matt Ryan. Dalton doesn't go into category 2 in Greg's list (he's certainly capable of being a long-term starter), but he doesn't get into category 3 either (he has a good team, but can't really win with them when it counts.. just look at his terrible playoff record).

    I'd put others in that "Average" category too: Cutler, Palmer, Alex Smith, etc.. It's subjective of course, but I'd prefer 5 categories.
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Sanchez was a level 1 QB on a team with a great defense and run game.
     
  15. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    I dont think so, Level 1's dont last very long in the NFL and Sanchez has been around for awhile, he might be on the bottom of Level 2 but lets not forget that he performed well enough to help Jets get to back to back AFCCG, granted, it was the D and run game but thats the whole point of Level 2, its guys who can take you far as a stopgap QB under the right Coaching and proper elements that QB needs to go far, probably doing bare minimum but not making mistakes.
     
  16. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Alex Smith is like the true definition of a Level 2, i mean for his first like 6 years he was awful with terrible coaching until Harbaugh and Andy Reid came along and Palmer is a bottom 3/high 2 most of his career.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The fact that you have to use the word bottom and high means you need more categories.
     
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  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Smith I agree for most of his career.. rating him more based on recent performances. He's been OK for KC, and I'd take him over Sanchez.

    Re: Palmer.. "bottom 3/high 2" with 4 categories puts him exactly where I'd put him with 5: "Average".
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    What about Kyle Orton? He is not disappointing. He is much better than I thought he would be. He isn't good. He is "Meh". Nice and average.
     
  20. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Interesting.. didn't think about him. Yeah, I obviously didn't list everyone that belongs in that category.
     
  21. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Exactly...problem is with these children...they cant handle any talk of Ryan that isn't 100% positive. Again, ive called the dude a top 10-12 QB in the NFL and ascending! Yet these little fairys call me "anti-Tannehill".

    Sometimes i feel the mains are full of 17 year old boys with no logic and one old argumentative moron who they look up to.

    Go Phins, and obviously we have a future franchise QB on our hands, he just needs to keep getting better. Is that so bad?
     
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  22. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Also, it's beyond funny and quite pathetic in the same breath that anyone be condemned for being on Ryan's *** when he was making mistakes the first 3.25 years...people are going to piss and moan when their QB struggles, but that doesn't mean he wasn't recognized as potentially very good.

    An objective person, will analyze the play of the QB on a yearly basis, ecspecially when they are young and developing. Anyone who believes they deserve any prizes because they were never down on Ryan even when he deserved it...and im speaking about guy's who have been blaming his surroundings from day one, not the guy's who acknowledged the poor play when it was there but still remained optimistic, big difference.
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Of course no one has said any of that stuff. But hey, you keep making up your battles all you want.

    Once again, you've not been attacked. Its you that goes on the defensive when people say anything bad about Wallace. That is the beginning and the end of the persecution you've literally fabricated.
     
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  24. GrimeyGrimes

    GrimeyGrimes New Member

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    I know that you don't agree with me. I believe the offense wasn't gassed because they were barely on the field in the first half. As the offense was finally getting going in the mid third quarter, that's when the defense finally started to get a little rest & the offense started exerting itself. Just my opinion. If the game wasn't so lop sided in the first half I would figure the defense wouldn't have been so gassed and exposed by the end of the 4th quarter.

    I'm a tannehill guy, but I just wouldn't point to the GB game as part of my argument.
     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Talking about the Green Bay offense vs Miami defense...not the Miami offense.
     
  26. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I totally see your point but my goal is to simplify as much as possible. Besides, giving a little more love to Andy Dalton, Jay Cutler and Alex Smith doesn't change the fact that they're not going any farther than Mark Sanchez did. Carson Palmer? He definitely could if he could stay healthy. He's a very smart, quite accurate QB.

    And on that basis, I really don’t think Andy Dalton is that far from Mark Sanchez. Let's not underrate Sanchez or overrate Dalton. They don't really need separate categories in my view. And more to the point, the goal is to avoid unnecessary categorization that may be true in reality but may have no practical meaning. If we're fair, Sanchez' passing stats were always going to be low due because he ran Rex Ryan's offenses. Who knows whether or not his numbers might have been Dalton-esque if he were drafted by the Bengals? And besides, Dalton's is lower than it should be anyway. He's clearly not making that team better. He's average at best.

    Does either QB scare an opponent? No. Has either led a great offense without an elite cast of surrounding talent? No. Has either gone anywhere without a good defense? No. So don’t over-complicate it. They are both level-2. Let the top-end of level-2 be the very "average" guys you listed: Dalton, Cutler, etc. Guys who can play but don't bring championships and play-off wins.

    Sanchez gets a bad rap because we’ve watched him for 5-6 years and we’ve seen his star fade to what it really is. Well, watch Andy Dalton as Cincinnati’s defense gets worse over time and take note of who Andy Dalton is when AJ Green isn’t around. You’ve already gotten to see the latter and it’s not pretty.

    Remember, when Mark Sanchez entered the league he was a decent young QB whose positive attitude many people liked. The fact the Jets could beat nearly anyone at any time convinced a lot of people Sanchez was an unremarkable QB whose best asset was not being scared by close games and nervous 4[SUP]th[/SUP]-quarter moments. By comparison, Dalton appears now as an unremarkable guy who's not scared to throw it to AJ Green regardless of quarter or coverage. A bit like Stafford with Calvin Johnson.

    Those early Jets teams were similar to the Seahawks of today in that the offenses would do next to nothing for most of the game and somehow the team would win in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] quarter. The difference is that one team has Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch while the other had Mark Sanchez and Thomas Jones—big difference! But even here I'd caution people not to get overly excited about Wilson's prospects as a 15-year NFL QB. It's hard to say if Wilson will be anything beyond average as he ages, slows down and is forced to be more of a pocket passer.

    Now, aside from being lucky enough to play with AJ Green, what exactly has Andy Dalton done to merit any sort of respect? In fact, AJ Green’s absences have made it painfully clear to NFL fans that Dalton and that offense are really nothing without their best WR.

    So, with all due respect CBrad, you’re question comes off sounding like you want to give Andy Dalton some credit for being on a team that wins games when we all know full well that Dalton is not any bit the reason they’ve won. Well, Sanchez was that too. Let’s see if Andy Dalton can survive when he’s not the beneficiary of a very talented defense and a top WR.

    Over time, Sanchez—who actually played decently for the Eagles last year—showed he was a level-2 guy. All the evidence says that Andy Dalton (sans AJ Green) is as well.



    Now, all that being said, I just picked Mark Sanchez out of thin air. I really didn't think much about it. The point though is that while level-2 and level-3 may be broad categories, that's really all you need to sort out who's an advantage to their team and who isn't. So while Dalton is probably slightly better than Sanchez, it's not enough to really mean anything. And maybe Sanchez isn't the prototypical leve-2 guy. Maybe Sanchez is sneaking in the back door of level-2 while guys like Dalton are more of what that category should represent?
     
  27. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I don't necessarily disagree with your general opinion of Dalton, but your rationale seems to be heavily based on how he plays without AJ Green. And there really isn't much factual support for the notion that he is actually worse without Green. Last year was the first time Green missed any appreciable amount of time -- 3 games. In those 3 games, Dalton's passer rating was 84.4. For the season, his passer rating was 83.5. So Dalton's passer rating was actually better without Green than it was with Green. And his passer rating without Green was brought down by one bad game against Indy, but I'm not so sure that can be blamed on the absence of Green. It might have just been a bad game.
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It certainly makes your position much stronger when you have to constantly resort to name calling and insults. Creating strawmen and insulting other posters, then complaining that other posters act like 17 year old boys. SMH Pot, meet kettle...
     
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  29. InfernoOrangeSS

    InfernoOrangeSS New Member

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    Personally, I think he has what it takes to get the Dolphins to the Super Bowl. I was not excited when we picked him in the draft, but he has swayed me to believe that he is definitely that he is a top of the NFL QB. I am not sure why so many Dolphin fans do not like him. I am excited to think what he will do this season.
    :hi5:
     
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  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Greg.. it's all subjective anyway, but for me Dalton can be relied on to execute a game plan more than Sanchez. Maybe it's the "butt-fumble"-type plays I just remember more from Sanchez, but for me I'd rather have Smith, Palmer, Cutler, Orton and Dalton vs. Sanchez.
     
  31. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Lets at least note that Sanchez helped his team further then any of those guys you mentioned with him. And I hate Sanchez. But Sanchez wasnt awful last year with Philly either, even though Philly was missing Foles, Sanchez did a decent job and proved he might be one of the better backup QBs in the NFL
     
  32. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Sanchez had very little to do with how far the Jets went in those two seasons. :headwall:

    They could have had 90% of the starters in the league and done the same.

    I really, really wish that there was a way to make people quit giving quarterbacks credit for what the defense and running game do...
     
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  33. Fin4Ever

    Fin4Ever Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I am just going to enjoy Ryan Tannehill 4.0 Just continuing to grow and starting to carry us some on his shoulders. From year one to now??? So much improvement..the Talent was always with him. I think also, that he is going into his second year with the next great young HC(HC to be), and I hope they are together for many,many year's.:woot:
     
  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Like x1000
     
  35. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    For your first paragraph, thats the whole point of Gregs Level 2 QBs, your ignoring the reality that Sanchez did indeed do his part (playing minimalist football, not making mistakes) and letting his D and run game win ball games, you could say the same thing about Dilfer with Ravens and Brad Johnson with Buccs. But, please stop ignoring the fact that Sanchez was the starting QB 100% of the plays that the Jets made it to back to back AFCCG. I understand that us as Dolphins fans, we arr supposed to hate anything Bills, Jets, Patriots but as a fan of the GAME OF FOOTBALL, im not gonna ignore FACTS because of my hatred for said teams.

    For your last paragraph, i stated numerous times in this thread that the Jets made it to AFCCG because the focus of the team was D and run game but you waited for the one time I didnt mention it to attack, which is childish IMO.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Did his part, and didn't make mistakes? He has a career total 82 tds and 80 ints. He's a garbage QB. The Jets won IN SPITE of Sanchez. We'd be talking about Super Bowl winners if those Jets teams had had Chad Henne instead of Sanchez.
     
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  37. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Honestly, man, I didn't pay attention to who's posts were who's in the thread. I really didn't. My comment was soley based on (A) Mark Sanchez, and (B) the continued notion of giving QBs credit for wins and losses. There is nothing in football that angers me more than fans and the media continually doing that, and I felt the need to vent at that moment. It makes me head explode when people use a team's accomplishments to prop up or bring down individual players, and especially in a case so extreme as those Jets.

    So again, sorry if I took anything out of context, my intent wasn't to rip you as a poster or a member....just that one particular point.
     
  38. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Come on Res, sometimes I cant tell if your being serious or sarcastic (if it is the latter, you actually have quite a sense of humor, if its the former, then idk how to debate you man lol) But im not referencing his career right now, although he is a decent backup QB, I was referencing the years they made it to back to back AFCCG when he was playing minimalist and limiting mistakes and letting his run game and defense win football games. Chad Henne had Brandon Marshall and sucked so Henne has really no excuse, for all of Sanchezes faults, he never had -in his prime- Brandon Marshall to throw to. Henne is just as good/bad as Sanchez and both are decent backup QBs that should never be considered for long term material.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not being sarcastic in the least in regards to Sanchez. He was, and is, garbage.

    2009: 12tds 20ints
    2010: 17tds 13ints
    2011: 26tds 18ints
    2012: 13tds 18ints

    That is, really, one year where you could argue he sort of helped, in 2011. Even still, he had a ton of picks. He was a liability, and it's a credit to Rex Ryan and the defense that the team made the playoffs.
     
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  40. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Ofcourse they have, you just know im too lazy to go chasing quotes. And you really gotta get over this Mike Wallace thing....it's a very creepy obsession.
     

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