Patriots SPYGATE was much worse than let on...OTL report

Paring it down to bare bones , are they legal ? Are they examples of good sportmanship ? Are they acceptable ?

Lots of manipulating the stories but none of that takes away from all of that being wrong .

 

The Pats are NOT A DYNASTY. They were dominant for a helluva long time, but they MISSED THE PLAYOFFS in the year between their first and second Super Bowls. Dynasties don't miss the playoffs between titles. They lost the Super Bowl twice. Dynasties don't lose Championships.

The Pats were a dominant team for an impressive 15 years. But they're not a dynasty. They're just not.

 

The Patriots were not a party to the case. Kraft wasn't involved at all.

Should Berman have run in the opposite direction when he saw Kraft, or vice versa?

That would be completely stupid, once the case is over.

Also, this in reality is not some momentous case. In the grand scheme of things it was about an issue of virtually no importance to either society as a whole or jurisprudence in general.

It's just not that big a deal.

 

My opinion is that 0-5 record you speak of is the result of excesses taken by the NFL in their overly antagonistic dealings with the NFLPA. They snuck a terribly constructed disciplinary and appeals process into the CBA and got the NFLPA to agree to it by being so disagreeable on such a broad range of topics and positioning the entire CBA negotiation as if it were going to be a roll-back of a "terrible deal" that had been negotiated previously by Paul Tagliabue, even at a time when the NFL was reaching milestone record breaking revenue generation and profitability.

So they sneak this discipline and appeals process into the CBA and get the NFLPA to capitulate on it if for no other reason than they're tired of the whole process and don't really want a strike season, and then some courts start hearing the appeals that result from that horribly scripted process and are like what the hell is this sh-t where Roger Goodell gets to strip laborers of millions at his sole discretion and then appeals are heard and decided by the same guy who just handed out punishment? Is this real life? No, you can't suspend this guy. Case closed (insert Law & Order noise).

And quite frankly I'm glad. This is what SHOULD happen when you're overly greedy in these dealings.

 

It wasn't hard for the Pats to quantify, else they wouldn't have done it.

There's no logical way out of this for Belichick. Either he cheated and it helped or he's stupid enough to cheat when he didn't need to.

 

Why? What evidence is there that they've ever NOT cheated? Players sure do make a lot of plays when they've got the right call for every play dialed in.

 

Saying Kraft was not involved may "technically" satisfy you but it is incredibly disingenuous to believe that stance imo .

It is a big deal because it is the NFL and will continue to be for ALL of the other Patriots decisions regarding legal and illegal means to get advantages over other teams . Just yet another Patriot moment.

Perception is part of this and you're well aware of that even if it is completely allowable and has zero legal reasons to not occur.

 

you keep telling yourself that. 6 superbowls in 13 years and they went 4-2. Tell me another team that has that record in that timespan that you wouldn't call a dynasty. It's not like they did it with different QBs like the Giants and Redskins from the 80s. As the patriots fans remind me all the time, they've lost one division title in the last 13 or so years and that was when Brady was lost for the season.

 

Come one. The NFLPA has plenty of good attorneys too. I think its totally disingenuous to claim the discipline stuff was "snuck in". Do you have any sources for this assertion? I'm not defending the NFL/Goodell. I just think that argument is silly.

 

Stealing signals is "not legal", technically.

But everybody does it.

So, the Patriots pushed the envelope. In a vacuum I don't have a problem with that. The real issue is that they still crossed the line after it was drawn in the sand.

And in the professional context, sportsmanship isn't something I spend a whole lot of time thinking about. I don't care if guys shake hands at the end of games and I don't expect somebody to cop to being the last to touch the ball before it goes out of bounds. Such a thing would be ridiculous contrary to what that commercial tells you.

I mean, if you think somebody is stealing your signals, change your signals. This happens in baseball all the time. It's part of the game.

 

That's awesome for them. But they ain't no dynasty. They were dominant, no doubt. The 70s Steelers were a dynasty. Bart Starr's Packers were a dynasty.

Dynasties don't miss the playoffs between Championships. Arbitrary rule? Maybe, but its based in logic.

 

if it's arbitrary, how is it based in logic? These are your personal standards for a dynasty.

 

Yeah eff morals cause FOOTBALLLLL!!!!!!!!

That mentality is what's wrong with this world.

 

Kraft and the Patriots organization were not parties to the case before Berman. It's not a technicality. It's reality.

Yes, they benefited from the decision, but third party's benefit from cases they aren't a party to all the time.

 

I think that was directed at the Dolphins under JJ/Wanstasche. I distinctly remember a game that Bruschi knew the plays before Marino even changed into them. If I remember there was a statement from the Dolphins players along those lines. There was criticisms that the signals weren't being changed even back then.

Question: wasn't Goodell a Kraft pick for the job? seems to me I remember something about that that Kraft wanted him as commish. Seems like the marriage has broken up. I wonder if Goodell got tired of trying to clean up after the Cheatriots and is now doing everything he can to turn the page if you will.. hmm

 

Are you denying there is (potentially) a public perception problem with the photo ck posted? If you're not denying that, then you're not arguing against dolfan22. This isn't about legalities or technicalities etc.. it just looks bad (to many people) is all we're saying.

 

There is no agreed upon definition of a sports dynasty. These are my personal feelings based on the logic that dynasties are the best of the best. The best of the best don't lose Super Bowls. Dynasties steamroll everybody. The Pats missed the playoffs after their first Superbowl. The best of the best don't miss the playoffs.

 

that's fine, your arbitrary definition works for you, just doesn't work for me, no big deal. I imagine if that was Dan Marino and the dolphins with 6 Super Bowl appearances you might be willing to change your tune. To me, it looks like you are defining your definition of a dynasty to keep the Patriots out of the discussion.

 

Logic?

Bart Starr's GB Packers lost the championship in 1960 before winning in 61 & 62. The Packers then missed the playoffs in 63 & 64 before winning championships in 65-67. They also missed the playoffs under Starr in 59 & 68-70.

 

I wouldn't put that past me. I really hate the Patriots. Ha!

 

That's easy! They had TWO Dynasties! Haha!

 

I know anyone can edit wiki.. but it is telling that the Patriots are listed as a sports dynasty there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasty_(sports)#American_football

I say "it's telling" only to point out a lot of people (I'd think the majority) that follow the NFL think they're a dynasty.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Stealing signals in baseball is legal if you do that by observing them in a legal way . It is not legal if you put a camera in CF or other places for the singular purpose to steal them . That's illegal and should be imo and warrants ramifications if a team is caught doing that . If your 3B coach does it or the runner on second does it because they are astute enough to figure them out , more power to them . Legal parts of the game .

What the Patriots did in this instance ( and ever so more apparent in many others ) is they made decisions to act ILLEGALLY to provide them with information and advantages not allowed by league rules .

Get caught once and stop ? ok .... do it over and over and continue to look for ways to cheat ? Entirely different and warrants severe punishment and that goes from the top down . Kraft , Bellichek , Brady , staff ....

Despite the Patriots feeling and thnking they won the latest ruling , they are not in the clear and will succumb to pretty drastic ramifications , whether that is the NFL doing that , opponents or the fallout from fans and media , imo . This is far from over.

 

The NFLPA has great lawyers. The NFL thought they snuck it in there, but the NFLPA knew even if Goodell was arbitrator/appeal he would be held to the Federal standard. DeMo Smith knew this. The NFL didn't. That's why there's questioning of who the NFL is going to for legal advice because they have had their arses handed to them.

 

That is so funny in its honesty.

 

You are a better person than me. I think I would be torn and would probably look at that cheating era as tainted. I would hope that I would still be a fan of future Dolphin teams and sort of brush the cheating era under the rug. Since we are still in the Pats cheating era it is hard for anyone to do that. Right now though, most everyone is in denial. Despite all this, I am enjoying some level of this.

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Coincidence? NOT BLOODY LIKELY!!

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...l-unaware-of-reported-spygatedeflategate-link

well now it would seem that the Patriots are denying that they ever video taped ANY other teams practices.. revisionist history or just selective memory? lol

 

If Berman and Kraft are acquaintances then it is inappropriate for Berman to be hearing a case that involves a high profile employee of Kraft. If the two aren't acquaintances than there is no reason for them to stop and chat, because it gives the perception of inappropriateness.

 

and yet there is an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty in football

 

They're not a dynasty because of all the cheating involved in attaining their success.

 

Not at all. The standards for recusal are much higher than that. I had a judge just tell me yesterday he was not recusing himself for our trial in December, but in the interest of disclosure he worked with my opposing counsel for 5 years at the same firm. People think that if there is any conflict that the judge must recuse but that's not the case. Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan argued FOR Obamacare before being appointed. She actually worked on the very subject matter. She never had to recuse herself from those cases. She helped craft defenses to the law, as Solicitor General. It doesn't get more conflicted than that.

 

Look, you saw a picture.

The entire interaction might have been 10 seconds.

If all they did was say hello and exchange pleasantries for 10-30 seconds, what's the big deal?

 

Or Clarence Thomas' wife, who made $1.6 MILLION lobbying against Obamacare (though Thomas would vote for the two Obamacare challenges, no matter who he was married to). http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa...continued-to-lobby-against-healthcare-in-2011

 

"During games, Adams sat in the coaches' box, with binoculars and notes of decoded signals, wearing a headset with a direct audio line to Belichick. Whenever Adams saw an opposing coach's signal he recognized, he'd say something like, "Watch for the Two Deep Blitz," and either that information was relayed to Brady or a play designed specifically to exploit the defense was called. A former Patriots employee who was directly involved in the taping system says "it helped our offense a lot," especially in divisional games in which there was a short amount of time between the first and second matchups, making it harder for opposing coaches to change signals."

anyone really going to argue this didn't help brady's career?

 

They met each other for about a few seconds. This is what the rich and powerful do. They mingle.

Also, the NFL filed in NYC to pre-empt the case going to Minnesota. It was randomly assigned to Berman.

They're the LAST ones to complain about the judge now.

 

AMEN! I would too. I used to LOVE baseball, more than any sane person should, since I was little. The McGuire / Bonds crap killed me...but I walked away and will likely never go back. I'd quit baseball when the previous strike had happened, but McGuire brought me back, because he was my favorite player and was flirting with a pace to break the HR record...then to find out they were all juicing...I was destroyed as a fan, so now I hold football in near the regard I held baseball before all that, and the Dolphins are the vast majority of that.

If Miami did this, I would disown them and likely the NFL en masse. Then I'd probably be a big time hockey fan...

 

Several will...and their argument gets more lame as time goes by.