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The Official Tannehill Sucks/Doesn't Suck Thread

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No Dolphins fan has ever had to say that. Dan won. Tannehill apologists are just making sh** up at this point ;)
     
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  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    WTF are talking about now?

    Are you really trying to say that no one has ever defended Dan's lack of Super Bowl wins by saying it was a team sport and he couldn't do it all himself? Are you really stepping that far off the delusion ledge?
     
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  3. Undisputed

    Undisputed Banned

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    This is like trying to teach quantum physics to a dog.

    Just a waste of time.

    Block them and let's talk football. I hate stupid people so much.
     
  4. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing you think pitchers don't have a win-loss record b/c there is another 8 players on the field and blah, blah, blah...

    What I am hearing is "you can't really explain your line of reasoning since it doesn't make sense" so better to throw out phrases like "sooooooo beyond ridiculous" and confuse the topic by declaring I need to prove some obscure challenge.

    I don't understand anything you've said let alone why that's a bad idea, so...cool...no reason for us to continue this conversation.
     
  5. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    No that Tannehill and the offense couldn't put teams away allowing for the other team to come back and win the ball game.
     
  6. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Please re-read his post, again, and then come back when you've read it correctly.

    Unless he wrote it wrong, he said Super Bowls (of which Dan has none) AND wins, of which Dan has plenty.
     
  7. cdnfinfan

    cdnfinfan New Member

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    So again you are putting this on Tannehill and saying the defense wasn't responsible for doing THEIR job??
     
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  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't even....what.....


    This is a joke, right?
     
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  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It doesn't matter that he included "wins".

    People have, very clearly and definitively defended Marino's lack of SB wins to the fact that football is a team sport. That dynamic doesn't change during the regular season.

    Does football become a team sport AFTER the regular season?
     
  10. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    I could generally care less about this argument either way, but I did want to point something out in regards to your mention of pitchers. Most new age/sabermetric people will tell you that win-loss record is actually a terrible stat to use when evaluating a pitcher because so much of it is based on the team around him. That's why WAR, WHIP, ERA and others are looked at instead.
     
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  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lol, it doesn't matter that he included wins, but it was his post I was responding to. Mmmkay, perhaps you don't understand how conversations work.

    Dan led his team to MANY playoff wins, and a few of those teams were deficient. Criticizing Tannehill for not doing the same is not changing the standard, it's the very same standard.
     
  12. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Nope, defense played a part it in. Good QBs are able to drive their teams down the field and score when the game is on the line.

    However, there is nothing that says the offense can't then turn around and score themselves to take the lead or tie up the ball game. Miami's offense on those 12 occasions failed to then do THEIR job.
     
  13. Finrunner

    Finrunner Season Ticket Holder

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    Wins and losses are not good statistics for pitchers. A pitcher can have an ERA under 2.50 and still have a losing record...

    ...because the other 8 guys in the line-up cannot hit for poo-poo. On the other hand, plenty of pitchers have had 4.0+ ERA and won way more than they lost on teams with plenty of run support.

    It's not a perfect parallel, but there are some similarities with pitcher records and QBs.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I wish just once you'd stop intellectually dishonest.

    The argument has been should wins and losses by a QB stat considering its a team sport. The poster you're referring to merely pointed out that then when defending Marino football is a team sport but when referring to Tannehill its not and he's solely responsible for wins and losses.

    You effing know that was the discussion and you're danging up the process because you're bored.
     
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  15. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    That's fair. I look at all those stats in addition to wins/losses. Pretty sure when it comes to HOF, All-Star game, getting new contracts and Cy Young award wins/losses are at least taken into account and probably the determining factor if players are similar in WAR, WHIP, ERA.
     
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dan Marino is an interesting subject. Only a leader in game winning drives and comebacks. It's like the fake spike game. Offense only scored 6 through almost 3 quarters. Defense gave up 24 points already. I think Dan had thrown 2 INTs at that point and only one TD. So what does Dan do? Picks that team up, goes 20-27 throwing 3 TDs. Down 3, they got the ball with 2 minutes left, he drives down the field, and is at the 8 with just seconds left.

    So of course, you spike the ball and go to overtime right? Hell no, you punk the jets and win the game. THAT's what the greatest do.

    Is it unfair to compare Tanny to Dan? Of course, so I'm only bringing this up to illustrate to resnor and others, what it means to pick a team up and win the game. Was Mark Ingram the one who won that game? Hell no. It was Dan, all Dan. He's supposed to be safe there, and take the 3.

    You've got QBs where announcers say, it does not matter what the score is, they have a chance.

    That's what it means, to will a win. It's the John Elway helicoptering to get that first down. By whatever means necessary, even if it's not scripted. Usually when it's not scripted. It's Tannehill, one day, seeing that a huge hole opened up and abandoning his reads and gunning it. Etc.
     
  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The fake spike was Bernie Kosar's idea. I guess we won because of his will to win.
     
  18. Linus

    Linus Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The point stands, across an entire career....why is a Marino-led team sometimes 12-4 and then on a 4 year span of .500 or less for a few years in his prime, then back up to 12-4? When they were 8-8 and 6-10, where was the magic that year, etc.? There's more to it than just "it" factor.

    Just using Marino as we are Dolphins fans, not to prove some point about him specifically. The Dolphins have been my number one interest since age 5, and I spent a long time elementary school through junior high school and on defending Marino about not even making it to the conference championships over and over....as the defense wasn't great, the Running game was poor, etc. And I know every Dolphins fan I ever knew did the same.
     
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  19. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    You are right in that contracts and to an extent awards take into account win/loss record, but I think a lot of people would argue that it shouldn't. However I don't want to derail this thread too much. That being said I wish they had those type of stats for quarterbacks.
     
  20. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    And there you are, in other threads, accusing others of being intellectually dishonest.
     
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  21. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It should be. It shouldn't be the only stat you look at. You don't judge a QB solely based on his W-L. But you look at it. That's always the case. You can sit there in your little hole and pretend it is not a stat you look at, but if Tannehill never lost a game in his 3 years and was 48-0 don't fool yourself for a second into believing you wouldn't be touting that. It's nonsense.

    Everyone looks at W-L with the QB. You can sit there on the ivory tower and pretend you're smarter than everyone else on earth, or come down to reality and see it for what it is. Reality. There will be no NFL films specials for the greatest QB ever, that had a .500 record. Good QBs win in this league. There is not a single good QB in this league, right now, that has not made the playoffs. Is it unfair? Life is unfair honey.

    Rodgers
    Brady
    Manning
    Brees
    Big Ben
    Romo
    Wilson
    Luck
    Matt Ryan
    Flacco
    Eli
    Dalton
    Newton
    Cutler
    Kaepernick
    Alex Smith

    There are no "great" QBs that have a .500 or below record, who never led their teams to the playoffs. Fairly, unfairly, he will be judged on it. Is the QB someone who will throw 350 yards and 0 INTs in a losing effort, or someone who will play crappy for 3 quarters, but sees an opportunity and rises up and wins a thrilling comeback? Dan had what, 50 comebacks and GWDs? That means more than a 3rd of his wins, he was playing bad enough for the other team to be ahead.
     
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  22. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Pitchers obviously have win/loss records. Their performance directly impacts the results on the field of the other team though. They're pitching. However, David Price, since coming to the Blue Jays is 8-1 (and its fantastic by the way as a Jays fan!) However, without his team mates, David Price isn't winning any of those games. He's got an ERA of 1.72 since arriving in Toronto, but that means, if his team mates, arent' offensively scoring at least 2 runs a game for him, he's not getting the win. So... his wins are directly dependant on the team around him, as are his losses. The same damn thing goes for football. As a QB, you can throw 2 TD passes, and lead your team to a FG scoring drive as well, but loose the game because your defense gave up 4 TD's and a FG. So, are you really saying that the QB needs to always outscore the losses of his defense? Sure, in theory that would be correct, but it's not realistic. That's like saying, in order for David price to be effective, he should never give up a run. And even if he always pitches shut out baseball, he still can't win if his team mates don't score him at least one run. So, I'm really not sure of your point here... Not that I'm surprised. Because, technically, Ryan Tannehill should be able to lead one scoring drive, either TD, or FG, and he should get credit for the win, and if we don't win, well it's because the defense gave up more than he scored. Which them means he has to score more than the defense allows... do you see how this is a team approach, and not a single player? Or is that logic lost on you?
     
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  23. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Not in total disagreement. However, I do think you will find a correlation between ERA and wins/losses. Arrieta and Grienke are at the top of the win list, but of course there are always exceptions like Lewis with the Rangers.

    The discussion/argument was in a response to a declaration made that "QB wins is NOT a stat" when in-fact it is a stat. The win/loss record of QBs have been kept track and used as a stat since I've been following football 40+ years.

    Jut like a pitcher's win/loss record is still a stat. Doesn't mean someone has to say that is the ultimate measure of greatness or not and can be skewed by other variables, but it is definitely a stat. I will also claim that over the long run a pitchers and a QBs win/loss record will tend to reflect their level of play.
     
  24. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    Do want to add this quickly. Ryan's YPA against Jacksonville was 8.16 well above his career average of 6.8, and he was definitely taking bigger shots down the field. However late second half after that touchdown the offensive line turned into a sieve and he was getting hammered. I wish I could see splits on his YPA from just that game.
     
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  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I have bolded and enlarged the actual important words from this post.
     
  26. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You realize we play against another team right? Their job is to stop our team from scoring. That happens sometimes. Or was Blake Bortles out there throwing footballs in the air and knocking down Ryan's passes. Because, I mean, it's all on the QB right? Not the defense that plays in the game as well?

    I cant believe some of you are actually arguing that it's on the QB to get the win in any and every situation..

    Further proving my point earlier, that this thread is pointless.
     
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  27. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, I see football like all team sports is a team. Do you not see that the QB, more than any other player on the team will effect the outcome of the game and this thread is about, specifically, Tannehill. Do you not see that or is this logic lost on you?
     
  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can always chart it. It's just one game. :D

    The YPA is an excellent development. The throws were deeper at times.
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    MAN!! I need to go back and rewatch those games, as I really didn't remember Marino throwing tds to himself. It's ludicrous. When a QB goes 20-27, with 3 tds, you can be DAMN SURE that there are other players on the team doing THEIR job also.

    Yet, when Tannehill goes 30-44, for 360, 2 tds 0 ints, with a ypa of 8+ and a 108 rating, he simply didn't do enough, and he didn't pick the team up.

    Look, the TEAM is playing like actual sh!t. Tannehill is one of like three guys on the team actually elevating their play, as if they give a damn about the game.
     
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  30. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The offense still needs to score. If the offense scores 30 and the defense gives up 35, that is obvious.

    If the offense scores 10 and the defense scores 10 like last week? That's a bad effort right? We scored 20. We need to score 25 a game or so at least. The BEST defenses give up 15 a game, most are in the 18-22 range.

    Is that Tanny's fault? No, but as the captain of the ship he is responsible for the unit, and the coaches ultimately responsible.
     
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What percentage, specifically, is the QB responsible for, when it comes to wins? It's a team game. Last game, you had three players on offense who played great football: Tannehill, Landry, Matthews. Other than that, who else played great on the team? Who else even played average? Certainly no one on the offensive line, maybe Pouncey, but hard to tell. On defense? Jones, Jenkins? Special Teams? Franks missed a 42 yarder. Tannehill should be irate, that his teammates are letting him down. It's like you guys expect the QB to go out and throw for 400+ yards, and always one more td than the opposing team, without ever making a mistake. Then, if Tannehill doesn't do that, you cry and pin the loss on him. Tannehill needs that magic bag.

    It's ridiculous.
     
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  32. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    Ryan Tannehill quarters 1-3.5 was almost a completely different quarterback. Between the deeper throws, the making pressure miss to keep plays alive, even just getting rid of the ball as opposed to taking the second. I thought he could easily have a 3-4 TD game. Then everything starting going to hell, and I think it started around the time he got sacked by their entire front 7. From that point on there was no pass rush (or run game) and the entire offense stalled. It's things like that which lead me to believe it isn't all him.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I guarantee, even in a situation where we score 30, and lose by 5, there will be posters on here talking about how Tannehill "left plays on the field" as the reason for the loss. We saw it last season.
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yes, yes, let's not only pretend you know exactly what I do in a fictional circumstance, let's make that the crux of your argument.

    No I wouldn't tout it. I'm many things but I'm not a hypocrite.

    Nor do I care what EVERYONE supposedly thinks. The QB is the most important part of the team, but he is not solely responsible for wins or losses. The engine is the most important part of a car, but if the transmission is shot I'm not blaming that on the engine even if the results are the same and the car doesn't work. QBs can be hindered by the team, a team can be hindered by the QB.

    Also, how do you know that the 8 wins a season weren't mostly because of Tannehill elevating the team? How do you decide they aren't, I mean wins after all have to be counted right?

    All you're doing by defending this crap is painting yourself into a corner because opens up more and more consistencies.
     
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  35. Undisputed

    Undisputed Banned

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  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But there nuance there. If the score is 49-48, we lose, but Tanny had a chance to hit Landry for a first down and run out the clock and win the game and he misses it, that's fair criticism. Is it the reason they lost? No, I'm pretty sure letting 49 points is the main reason. But it's also situational. You can criticize Tanny WITHOUT blaming him for the loss. Last week, I wasn't impressed with Tanny's play. He had a bad day, despite the stats being okay. This week, he played well. But we lost to the friggin Jags. Lead us into field goal range!!!!!!! Scramble! Line sucks? You're a frigging WR. Run! Do it do it do it!

    Romo does it. Big Ben does it. Wilson has done it. This isn't immobile Palmer, Manning or Brady. He's a former WR! Aaron Rodgers does it. They've all played with crappy olines. Make something happen. I think that is the only thing preventing Ryan from being GREAT. He's already damn good. But to be great, he has to have that ability to extend plays when the pocket breaks down. But I think that is something that is innate, and we may never see it. Romo displayed it from the very beginning. Manziel looks to have a bit of it, even if he never becomes good.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No one, on this board as ever said you can't criticize Tannehill.

    All we are saying is that the criticisms that happen the most are either not true, not real, not valid for a QB or not unique to Tannehill and are done by ALL qbs.
     
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  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Because you can look at his play, and see his inconsistency? Depending on how you count, you can find 7-8 games where Tannehill played subpar last year.

    Games 1-3, he was okay in GB, did not play particularly well in Jax, Detroit snuffed him, Jets, Baltimore and 2nd NE games were not good efforts. Not even going to count the meaningless Jets and Vikings games. So roughly half his games he didn't play well, and luckily we won some of them. We lost a few games he did play well in (Denver for example).

    So he's about 8-8. Exactly how he played.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Soooooo do we win the games he played great in if he didn't play great?
     
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  40. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    One play I liked a lot from Tanne was, in the first or second quarter, he took the snap and looked left. He had an easy, wide open, short, dump off to Miller. In the past, he would have taken that easier dump off, but he quickly shifted his eyes downfield and hit a nice intermediate pass. I forget who he hit on that pass, but it was great and I think a progression to be able scan his options faster. Read, react and hit.
     

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