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And here we go...''Joe Philbin didn’t much like the way his team looked in pregame''

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    He's trying and he's failing. The HC is usually the fall guy if the team fails to succeed, that's the business they're in. After laying eggs the last two years with the playoffs on the line, not to mention the OL failing miserably while Philbin is an OL specialist from what I've heard- he's lucky that he still has his job.
     
  2. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that last sentence pretty arbitrary? No one on the outside can say what the coaches did or didn't do to prepare the team.
     
  3. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I agree with your general arguments in this thread about Philbin, but I'm not sure this is a motivation problem as much as a game-planning/preparation issue.

    Does Belichick have the personality and charisma you'd prefer? No. But he gets his team ready for a game with good game plans and machine-like execution ability. So I'm fine with Philbin's personality. I just can't stomach his teams underperforming in the 1st quarter over the years.
     
  4. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Just to add my 2 cents to the motivation discussion, the job of the HC is to get the team ready to play.

    So I think that Jim and PH have valid points, the HC doesn't HAVE to be the guy that gets the team "fired up", but he should have someone on his staff that does, or players that do it, or best case scenario, both, lol.

    But the bottom line is that it is his responsibility to have the team ready, however he manages that, that is the job of the HC and Philfin is not getting it done.

    It certainly is nice to see an actual "discussion" about it though, I tip my hat to you fellers.

    [​IMG] GIFSoup
     
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  5. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I think that sums it up pretty well. Philbin is being judged for what happened years ago and it's shading people's view of what's happening in 2015.
     
  6. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    The difference with Belichick is that he has a longstanding leader with a great deal of power within the organization, who's bought in to Belichick's philosophy and extolls it among his teammates. That sort of "bridge" between the coaching staff and the players has to be there for high-level success.
     
  7. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Bills admit emotions ran too high against Patriots

    The Bills were pumped up for Sunday's game against the Patriots, maybe too pumped up as their emotions got the better of them particularly in the first half.

    It’s often hard enough to deal with the New England Patriots knowing Tom Brady is their trigger man on offense. Buffalo’s players were supremely motivated to get a win in their Week 2 division matchup with the defending Super Bowl champions. By their own admission they may have been too emotionally driven on Sunday.

    http://www.buffalobills.com/news/ar...Patriots/cc4bda2e-8e08-444e-ac2f-0b7bba41ce23
     
  8. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    They'll still get paid. It takes a certain "it" factor in a head coach to get players who make millions to get their personnel to maximize their potential for 60 minutes. Philbum is the antithesis of the "It factor."

    I suspect that's why Nick Saban ran for the hills. He can only hack it when he's bullying college kids that make no money, but instead, are playing to get to the NFL where they can make that money.
     
  9. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    How did he get to be a longstanding leader? Philbin has had 3+ years now to show he deserves the kind of respect Belichick got after less time as a NE head coach. He's not getting that respect because (I'm guessing) it's clear even to players that they're not being utilized as well as they could.

    The onus lies on Philbin to create that "bridge" you speak of and he can't do it (yet).
     
  10. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Not completely. Some of it depends on the dumb luck perhaps of somehow acquiring a quarterback (or a another very influential player, but it's usually a quarterback) who 1) plays very well, 2) makes a lot of money and therefore has power within the organization, and 3) has leadership ability. Tom Brady is prototypical in this regard. When you mix Tom Brady with Bill Belichick, you essentially have the Patriots' "culture," and you can then assimilate the likes of Randy Moss, even, without missing a beat. That culture isn't easy to establish, however, and teams don't tend to have an identity until one is there. However, until that process takes shape and eventuates in a true team culture, you can't really blame the absence of these sorts of intangibles solely on the head coach. This is an organizational process that goes well beyond just one person.
     
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  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I'm on record saying Brady has been more important to NE's success than Belichick (and I hope someday with Brady's retirement we can see a test of that theory.. SOONER rather than later please!!).

    But.. Belichick is a fantastic X's and O's coach. You give most other coaches that NE team and I bet the machine-like precision of their offense (with Brady) will start to fall apart.

    Either way, whatever Philbin's contribution (big or small) and whatever cards he's dealt with, after 3 years of being in a pretty powerful position within the organization, the onus lies on him to create the right culture for this team to succeed. In particular, he needs to get the team ready for a game much better than he's done so far (measured statistically by points in the 1st quarter).
     
  12. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    The team has come out flat and underperformed the first two weeks of the season. That's on the HC, bottom line.
     
  13. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I get all that, what I'm saying is that you can't just pin it on the HC.
     
  14. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    If that were true, then having a "team cancer" (a term usually reserved to describe players who derail the team culture and make it devolve into chronic conflict in the locker room) would be meaningless. If everything starts and stops with the head coach, then there would be no way a player could have such a negative effect. Likewise, you need players to have positive effects, and that goes well beyond the influence of the head coach. These are grown men who need to find it within themselves to figure out what they want (i.e., win big) and get their teammates on board with that.
     
  15. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Again, totally arbitrary. You're assuming the Dolphins are this great team that should go on the road and dominate. And when your expectations aren't met, instead of reassessing your initial expectations you jump to a new set of assumptions, that the HC is to blame.

    Analyzing football is a humbling practice. These first two games have been very humbling for me. I've had to rethink my ideas on how good the Dolphins are. I'd respectfully suggest you do the same.
     
  16. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Why isn't that on the players? You're essentially espousing a philosophy where the players are "emotional blank slates," sitting around waiting for someone to instill within them some sort of passion. Are they not humans? They can generate that within themselves. Bill Parcells tells the story of when his teams were practicing poorly, and he'd take his assistants and walk off the practice field, leaving it to the players to figure out who was going to lead and who was going to right the ship. That sort of development needs to happen on this team.
     
  17. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I think most people understand its not all on Philbin. For example, if Miami reels of a nice winning streak the next few weeks you'll barely hear a peep about Philbin.
     
  18. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    The team came out flat both games, Philbin admitted concerns to that effect. As the saying goes, the buck stops with Philbin as he is the head coach. How you can deflect that responsibility from Philbin is beyond me.
     
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  19. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Why not on the players? Because given the responsibilities and corresponding power/influence of every member of the Dolphins organization (from owner, GM, coaches down to players), I'd say on average it's the head coach that is most responsible for creating a team culture and preparing a team for a game. That doesn't mean there aren't cases where a player (like Ray Lewis) can totally change the cards a coach is dealt with.

    Also.. that example with Parcells is an example of a coach knowing how to "push the right buttons". So a good deal of the credit there goes to the coach too.
     
  20. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    Piston, this place is a little too argumentative for my tastes so I do not post much but this issue is one of my "concerns" and I did want to point out that Miami is very highly ranked int he Philbin area in not getting penalties of the aggressive nature.....BUT they are very low ranked (they get a lot of them) in pre snap penalties.......so makes sense...an aggressive team undisciplined pre snap versus the NFL average.....just fyi when you look a little closer at what makes up the numbers.
     
  21. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    The misguidance some people have in this area in my opinion is in likening a football team to a troop of soldiers, awaiting their instructions from the commanding officer. Unlike in war, where the plans come from the top, and the troops are mere marionettes for that cause, these players know full well what's going on and what it takes to win, and they don't need "rah rah" from any "commanding officer." We like to think of our team as "warriors," with a "general" leading them into "battle," but there is far more self-direction here than in the war analogy.
     
  22. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    To focus on the subject, you have to ask and answer the question;

    What is the primary job of the HC?

    Offensive or defensive gameplans? No, where some coaches will do this, depending on their own particular speciality, many coaches leave that up to the OC and DC, but this is not the primary job of a HC.

    Acquiring talent? No, while most coaches do have some input, and some HC's do have this responsibility, it is the GM and scouts that do the real work, the HC may have final decision in some places, but not most, and this isn't the primary job.

    So, what is the primary job of a HC?
     
  23. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    To monitor closely the leadership structure among the players, and make adjustments if necessary, and monitor the performance of the assistants. On gameday all of that also includes game management and the decision-making that goes with that, of course.
     
  24. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Falling behind and being flat are two different things. Playing hard and playing well are also different. If I may ask, which players came out flat vs Jax? Or are you just assuming they came out flat bc they didn't roll over the Jags like the high school squad they really are lol.
     
  25. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    You're neglecting to consider that Ndamukong Suh, for example, makes far more money than Joe Philbin. That creates a great deal of power. How he's going to use it is up to him.
     
  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The HC determines the general parameters for all of the people below him. Yes he helps develop the game plan. The specifics? Left up to the OC and DC, but the general parameters are determined by the HC.

    Same with how practice is run, what general changes need to be made at halftime, or during the game. Analysis of the opponent (from game tape) he'll be more like an editor. Others do the detailed work, but what gets filtered into the game plan is up to the HC.

    Yeah, it's a position with a lot of influence, which is why I say if you had to choose one person to blame for tendencies (that show up statistically) like well below average performance in the 1st quarter, I'd say pin more of the blame on the HC than anyone else.
     
  27. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not at all neglecting that. Suh's responsibilities are mostly as a DT. He probably has a lot of influence over what to do on the defensive line. But Suh isn't going to go around telling Tannehill how to play QB. No.. HC is the one position where one can influence all the others that matter during a game (after players are picked by the GM). So if I had to choose one position to put blame on, it's (on average) the HC.
     
  28. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Dude- Philbin admitted that the team came out flat and that it was a problem. That's the primary theme of the thread, refer to the original post. You're trying to deflect Philbin from blame as to the team coming out flat and arguing that the team did not actually come out flat, when Philbin himself said that the team came out flat. Let that sink in for a moment.
     
  29. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    That's all good. However when we can clearly see specific players not doing their job and how those missed plays lead to points for the other team then perhaps the generic, HC is to blame, argument needs a little more scrutiny.
     
  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah, for specific plays, you're on solid ground. But trends over time you're not. At that point, the general team-wide influence of the HC matters most.
     
  31. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Philbin said dozens of different things about that game, if you want to cherry pick the ones yu agree with then that's on you.

    You're saying the team came out flat. I'm saying the players didn't execute properly. The difference is that I can name the exact players and Playa that I saw not executed properly. OTOH you have yet to name a single player who was flat, shouldn't be too hard because you have 46 to choose from. For the sake of discussion at least name a few of the guys who were flat on Sunday, otherwise we're just talking in circles here.
     
  32. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    But by virtue of his contract Suh is far more a fixture here than Philbin. So is Tannehill. That creates power. Those players have to use that power to lead and influence their teammates, both by example (making plays and avoiding mistakes) and verbally/emotionally. If that isn't happening, you can expect a flat team.
     
  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I agree they could do more. But they're not responsible for game plans or how practice is run, etc.. And that's where the problem seems to lie here (w.r.t. 1st quarter performance).
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Just because the head coach is in a position of authority over the players and makes a great number of decisions about them, doesn't mean he has a commensurate level of influence over the team's emotional state.
     
  35. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not talking about the emotional state. Talking about game planning. You can't blame Tannehill or Suh for that.
     
  36. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    You could just as easily hypothesize that the teams with better leaders among the players are able to generate more drive in the locker room before games, and therefore come out anything but flat. How many times have you seen a team leader encircled by his teammates before a game, with the leader giving the "battle cry"? How many times have you seen the head coach in that position? Ray Lewis, Drew Brees, Michael Irvin, Jerome Bettis -- these are your classic team leaders. These are the guys that have the effects we're talking about here.
     
  37. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I agree, your response can be summed up by saying, getting the team ready to play on sundays, that is the primary job of the HC, so any time it seems the team is not ready to play, there is only one guy to blame, because it ultimately is one mans responsibility, the HC.
     
  38. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    I thought we were starting with the premise that "flat" reflected an emotional state, at its root.
     
  39. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point. The team has a habit of falling behind, my main theme is that we can't just pin it on the HC, the staff, and more than anything, the players, deserve scrutiny.
     
  40. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    You could certainly choose to scapegoat him in that way, but that doesn't mean the mechanism of action in this area necessarily lies with him.
     

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